Why is the concept of the trinity so poorly understood (or often straw manned)?

[sojourner]

christianity does not say that 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1.

rather, christianity says that 1 + 1 + 1 = 1.

No, it doesn't. The Father isn't added to the Son, & etc. to equal "God." The Father is fully God by himself. The Son is fully God by himself. And, together, they are one God.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I think many of the completely ignorant answers show exactly why it is so poorly misunderstood. The Trinity isn't irrational at all. However it is a revealed truth. There is simply anything like it in any other system of belief in the world. If you believe that pagan trinities of Gods are the same thing than that is simply a misunderstanding on your part.The Trinity teaches us everything about Judeo-Christinaity as the Trinity is a family unto Itself and Judeo-Christianity has to be understood through the successive covenants in which God, i.e. the Trinity, has attempted to bring us into his own family life, as intimates. From my perspective now as a convert to Catholicism, i.e. Christianity, the whole world and every family in the natural world, of both men and animals, is a reflection of this reality. The Trinity also leads to some very beautiful implications such as truth and love being one and the same thing--not only are they the same but they provide for a theory of objective truth/love which is grounded in God's ontological encounter with himself.

One thing to understand, and unfortunately psychology speaks a different language so this reality of our psychological being isn't reflected in secular psychological theory, is that there is a difference between persons and essences. For us our essence and person are pretty much the same thing so it is not immediately apparent that this could not be the case. However even we as humans, from a Christianity perspective still do share something of common essence with one another. This is what makes human communion, and therefore community, possible in the first place. It is also how we all came lose Sanctifying Grace through activity of single person and how we were restored to it through the actions of another single person.

Initially upon my investigation in Catholicism I thought the Trinity was sheer irrationality, and I would never be able to accept it. Once however I came to actually understand, in the partial way we are limited to understanding it, I saw that it must always be the logical consequence of a God in whose image we are made. I reiterate the simplest formula below:

God the source and ground of all Being exists, non contingently, in absolute simplicity as pure act. The self aware of God, is itself a person. This is not very different than our narratives of ourselves that constituted the sum total of our ego's in some uses of the term. Essentially our egotistic conception of ourselves is a story that defines us. In God's case this story is absolutely accurate, total and so like the himself infinity. God has perfect knowledge of His own infinite self and this is the begotten son, aka the Word of God. As the Son gazes back at the Father encountering his own ontological reality Truth and Love are both born and are themselves personified this is the Holy Ghost, and since all three persons of the one Essence are the same the Father and the Son are also both the incarnation of Love and Truth, itself. The three Persons of the Trinity life in total self sacrifice (love) to one another. Jesus who incarnated into the flesh and is also know and the Eternal Covenant made flesh taught us the depths of what such self giving means as he gave himself for us as St.Paul says while we were still in our sin.

The French post-structuralist Jacques Derrida wrote much in life about the impossibility of the pure gift. For humans it is impossible--at least without the grace received by saints--for us to give without some notion of economy, e.g. some notion of tit for tat, but Jesus gave himself in full acceptance of our ingratitude. In fact this is what marks the Trinity who has no need of anything outside of Itself, yet out of love and desire to share Itself created all creation. Here is where of the notion of the Covenant comes into play. A covenant is as different from a contract as marriage is from prostitution. A contract is an agreement between person for the exchange of objects or services. A convent invokes God, assuming he is real (this is a big deal because if God really exists than Covenants have real authority), and is an exchange of persons. Covenants create family bonds. God who is family, in and of Himself, wants nothing more than to make us family too. The Trinity is everywhere the Old and New Covenants (translated into Latin as Testament) of Sacred Scripture. The properly understood the very fact we divide salvation history in Old and New "Testaments", itself is logical implication of the Trinity.

From the above I hope it clear that you can't have God without consequently having the image of God, His Son, and where there is the Father and the Son there must then necessarily be the Holy Spirit, although I believe the term ghost captures a little more of the manifestation of this Third Person. Quite frankly a God,, in whose image we are made, who is not Triune is simply not logically feasible.

Why don't people better understand this? I don't know, but it is not the only thing people fail to realize about Christianity. Since my conversion I've started to call it the greatest open secret on the planet. The Apostle's who comprised the Church from the beginning took pains to teach in creeds our faith in creeds. Yet very little of what the Church has therefor consistently taught since the beginning is realized even among the majority of Catholics. One can blame the signal to noise ratio. It is as if some force in the world wants to so muddy the water that even people who sincerely search for it have difficulty seeing the bottom.

Not only is the trinity honestly interpreted differently by people motivated only to try and understand it, but judeo-christianity is a misnomer.

 

[JayJayDee]

3 persons of one essence.

1x1x1=1

Simple

.......or for the simpletons who cannot add up?

Using x doesn't make the math correct. What does x stand for?

If the Father, son and holy spirit are all part of one God, then the 1/3 is a more correct understanding. But where is God chopped up into three different and equal parts in the Bible?

I am still to be shown one single scripture that tells us that the Father is fully God whilst the son is fully God and the holy spirit is also fully God. Anyone?

 

[Wharton]

Using x doesn't make the math correct. What does x stand for?

What does x stand for?

Which is also why you can't balance the equation of the ransom. Are all JW's math challenged??

 

[sojourner]

I am still to be shown one single scripture that tells us that the Father is fully God whilst the son is fully God and the holy spirit is also fully God. Anyone?

What is this fixation with finding "a scriptural passage?" Jesus taught extra-biblical concepts. The apostles taught extra-biblical concepts. Paul taught extra-biblical concepts. The church Fathers taught extra-biblical concepts. sola scriptura is a heretical concept that wasn't dreamed up for the first 1500 years of the church. It has only been plaguing us for 500 years.

Fact is, the Divinity you seek is littered throughout the bible, not concentrated in one concise statement.

 

[psychoslice]

To me the concept of the trinity is just that, a concept, an idea, a metaphor pointing to that which cannot be conceptualized.

 

[asier9]

Not only is the trinity honestly interpreted differently by people motivated only to try and understand it, but judeo-christianity is a misnomer.

Actually you are quite, wrong about this. It is a popular misconception perpetrated by many people who one would have suspected should really have known better, such Joseph Campbell. That aforementioned noise to signal ration that always seeks to garble what the Church, since that first Pentecost, has had to say about itself.

Judeo-Christianity is in fact one religion. There are seven covenants in the both the Old and New Covenant books if we count the two given to Moses as two. The Eternal Covenant made flesh, which is what Jesus was called by many of the early Church fathers just simply does not make any sense outside of a Jewish context in which he paid the curses of the six preceding broken covenants allowing us now in this new covenant to realize all of their blessings. The thematic unity of all of salvation history is so tightly knit that it is simply not credible to believe there could have been Christianity without Judaism or that Christianity is not the fulfillment of Judaism.

I am, through adoption, a son of Abraham, and this is the only sonship that matters. Issac was the son of Abraham through this very same promise, with which the other six children of Abraham, through the flesh, were never so reckoned.

And at least in the Western Church, our facility to articulate what the Trinity is has certainly expanded, the Eastern Catholic Churches take a different theological approach, but the Universal Church, i.e. Catholic Church (yes Church is being used here in two different if still interrelated senses), has always consistently taught the same thing.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Actually you are quite wrong about this. It is a popular misconception perpetrated by many people who one would have suspected should really have known better, such Joseph Campbell. Judeo-Christianity is in fact one religion. There are seven covenants in the both the Old and New Covenant books if we count the two given to Moses. The Eternal Covenant made flesh, which is what Jesus was called by many of the early Church fathers just simply does not make any sense outside of a Jewish context in which he paid the curses of the six preceding broken covenants allowing us now in this new covenant to realize all of their blessings. The thematic unity of all of salvation history is so tightly knit that it is simply not credible to believe there could have been Christianity without Judaism or that Christianity is not the fulfillment of Judaism. I am, through adoption, a son of Abraham, and this is the only sonship that matters. Issac was the son of Abraham through this very same promise, with which the other six children of Abraham, through the flesh, were never so reckoned.

And the our understanding of the Trinity has certainly increased but the Church has always consistently taught the same thing.

Nope...it's rubbish. It's an appropriation of Judaism for purposes of God knows what. Establishing credibility, I would assume.
Christianity, in and of itself, is the belief that Christianity is the fulfillment of prophecy, and the continuation of the works of a single God. Adding 'Judeo' as a descriptive is at best redundant.

 

[JayJayDee]

The human family, of course.

Jesus said otherwise. Read Matt 7:21-23. Many who think that they are good Christians are not going to be recognised by Jesus as his own in any way. When he says "I never knew you" he is telling these ones that they have NEVER been accepted by him as his disciples. He is repulsed by them and their works of "lawlessness".

No they haven't.

In my many years of calling on people of all faiths, it becomes apparent after some time that out of all those who claim to be Christian, Catholic people are the most gullible and the least Biblically educated of those who claim to follow Christ's teachings. Only in recent decades have Catholic people been encouraged to read the Bible instead of just the Catechism. In fact most catholic people I spoke to just a couple of decades ago couldn't tell the difference between the Catechism and the Bible.

Catholic people that I have studied the Bible with are often angry at the lies that have been told to them all their lives....especially about Jesus and Mary and their relationship to God and his Christ. They become aware of God's view of idolatry and they are quick to get rid of their statuary and images. They see the Rosary for what it is and are grateful to be shown the truth about those things and how to pray to God correctly from the heart.

Your rampant, overblown bias is showing.

Or perhaps you just need to read a bit of history.....did they just make all that up? All that extra stuff that Catholics do is borrowed from non Christian religions. Everything is traceable to religious practices outside of Christianity....even to the mitre hat worn by Catholic Popes and high officials. Smacks of the fish god. Google it.

It makes me wonder just how much you really know about the beliefs and practices of your own church and their origins? You won't find any of the things I mentioned in the Bible, so where do you assume they come from?

 

[asier9]

What is this fixation with finding "a scriptural passage?" Jesus taught extra-biblical concepts. The apostles taught extra-biblical concepts. Paul taught extra-biblical concepts. The church Fathers taught extra-biblical concepts. sola scriptura is a heretical concept that wasn't dreamed up for the first 1500 years of the church. It has only been plaguing us for 500 years.

Fact is, the Divinity you seek is littered throughout the bible, not concentrated in one concise statement.

While we probably disagree ultimately about the nature of Truth and what Judeo-Christintiy informs us aoubt such. I will readily agree with you that Protestantism is a modernist movement. I call it the cult of the personal theology as really everyone is free to interpret the Bible as they wish. The only problem with this is that Sacred Scripture is itself only a subset of Sacred Tradition, and to rip the scriptures away from that tradition unmoors them. The only limit to their possible meanings then becomes merely a function of one's creativity and imagination. Ironically in many of the New Testament letters we see the pains the Apostles themselves, especially St. Paul, go through in order to teach by the establish creeds, some of the earliest of which many secular New Testament scholars place their date of origin to within the first year of the Crucifixion, itself.

 

[asier9]

Nope...it's rubbish. It's an appropriation of Judaism for purposes of God knows what. Establishing credibility, I would assume.
Christianity, in and of itself, is the belief that Christianity is the fulfillment of prophecy, and the continuation of the works of a single God. Adding 'Judeo' as a descriptive is at best redundant.

You are free to believe whatever irrational things you desire to believe. I am not here to argue further. I just want to say you are right that adding Judeo as a descritptive is a redundancy. However it is one that is often necessary to make clear the point that they are in reality one single religion.

 

[Wharton]

Catholic people that I have studied the Bible with are often angry at the lies that have been told to them all their lives....especially about Jesus and Mary and their relationship to God and his Christ. They become aware of God's view of idolatry and they are quick to get rid of their statuary and images. They see the Rosary for what it is and are grateful to be shown the truth about those things and how to pray to God correctly from the heart.

What a crock.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

You are free to believe whatever irrational things you desire to believe. I am not here to argue further. I just want to say you are right that adding Judeo as a descritptive is a redundancy. However it is one that is often necessary to make clear the point that they are in reality one single religion.

I'm right that it's a redundancy, and I'm irrational. Bully for me.
They are not, of course, one single religion. That is a complete pile of pants.

 

[asier9]

I'm right that it's a redundancy, and I'm irrational. Bully for me.
They are not, of course, one single religion. That is a complete pile of pants.

It is sad that a staff member here would resort to such blatantly fallacious retorts. One can easily be right about a certain thing and also be committed to irrational beliefs. In fact this is true of every single one of us to varying degrees. So they are not as your post pretends contractions, but nice strawman anyway.

 

[Glaurung]

No matter what you say about Jehovah's Witnesses ....doesn't make it true either. We each have an opinion of the other's beliefs and practices, so time will tell, won't it?

Indeed, but I'm not the one going out of my way to tell them that they're wrong because I already know it's futile. If you'd like a more serious and less confrontational discussion, we can open a thread for that. Getting into my face and giving me paragraphs of 'Whore of Babylon' rhetoric just makes me want to switch off.

Since Jesus said the weeds were going to be growing along with the wheat right up until the harvest time...what does that prove? If Babylon the great was not still in existence when the judgment comes, what is the point of Revelation foretelling her demise?

And this really proves my very initial point in my first post. Everyone but my own little sect is a 'weed'. There's no response to someone whose thinking is so borderline cultish. You can't beg the question like that if you want real discussion.

An injection of truth. A different perspective. A fresh approach to the Bible's teachings as opposed to church doctrine and tradition.

But the tradition bequeathed us by the Apostles is the truth of the Christian revelation. As has been pointed out to you, sola scriptura is a Protestant innovation. When you look at the writings of the Church Fathers, they simply do not do well for Protestant claims, what you see is Catholicism, you see Orthodoxy. How convenient if all that just disappears and you just arbitrarily dismiss it all as 'apostasy'. No, sorry, that doesn't fly for me.

Actually "hell" (Heb. Sheol, Greek hades) in the Bible is the grave. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
When it says "the gates of hell" will not overpower the church, this is a simple statement meaning that death cannot interfere with God's purpose. "The gates of hell" are opened by the resurrection, which will see all of God's faithful anointed ones raised to their heavenly positions as "kings and priests" (Rev 20:6) Their subjects will be on earth, which will be cleansed of all wickedness. This is what the Bible teaches.

No, it's what you teach and tell yourself is unquestionable 'biblical truth'.

Christ establishes his Church and tells Peter he is the rock and Hell (anything that would seek to dismantle that Church) will not prevail. The Church and Peter's succession is still here.

 

[jeager106]

I guess the Jews felt the same way about Jesus and his disciples. A first century heretical sect...except that there is no such word as heresy in the Bible.

If people had stuck to the popular view of what was acceptable truth to a Jew, no one would have followed Christ....would they? Those that stuck with the religious leaders of the day, were responsible for putting their own Messiah to death. The devil has a way of making what is right seem wrong...and vice versa. What a clever little devil.

Well actually Jesus foretold exactly that Christianity would fall into apostasy.
The parable of the wheat and the weeds is telling us that the devil is responsible for sowing seeds of false Christianity in the same field as the sower of the fine seed. (Matt 13:24-30, 36-40)

The apostles too foretold this apostasy. Why does the church pretend that it didn't happen? An apostasy from Christianity was beginning in the first century and it was to grow like "weeds" until the harvest time. (Matt 13:24-30, 36-40; 1 Tim 4:1-3; 2 Pet 2:1-3; 2 Tim 2:16-19) Only then was a complete separation to take place.


The apostate one? YES!!! Thank God!

Like I said, can you name me any similarities between first century apostolic Christians and the fourth century Catholic Church instituted by a pagan (sun worshipping) Roman Emperor? I see none.

I can give you a long list of opposites though.

Ah, that would have been the Emporer Constintine, a pagan polythiest to the day he died.
JayDeeDee nailed it.
Now yield to the one who has authority.
Satan is a clever little devil indeed.
The RCC is responsible introducing so many pagan images into Christdendom.
Christmas, Easter, B-days, pergatory, hellfire and damnation, idol worship, extremely long weddings & lots of images.
Easter...you know when the fellow comes out of the tomb, sees his shadow then there is 6 more weeks of winter.
(am I going to hell for that?)

 

[JayJayDee]

What a crock.

Great response....very enlightening and answered all the points very succinctly.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

It is sad that a staff member here would resort to such blatantly fallacious retorts. One can easily be right about a certain thing and also be committed to irrational beliefs. In fact this is true of every single one of us to varying degrees. So they are not as your post pretends contractions, but nice strawman anyway.

I would humbly suggest that 'fallacious' is entirely in the eyes of the beholder, but feel free to offer support for your position if you wish.
If all people are irrational (and there is no doubt that this is true on occasion of us all) then an accusation of general irrationality is of no consequence. Instead, I would submit that you were commenting on my post. Fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion. Point out what is irrational about it if you wish. For me, I don't see it.

(assuming contractions = contradictions)

I don't do the strawman thing, at least not intentionally. Don't see the point of it, and I'm not into point-scoring for the sake of it. Realise words are cheap, but I would think most people who've been on here for a while would not see me as a cheapshot artist.
That said, I am quite committed to my position that talk of 'Judeo-Christianity' is complete pants. If you'd prefer a different term, and find that impolite, I could go with 'bunkum'.

PS. Far from sad, the fact that posters on this site can openly discuss issues with mods is a strength. I will absolutely not hold it against anyone for disagreeing with me, so as long as we stick to the forum rules, it's all for the positive, to my mind.
Welcome to RF, and don't stress a disagreement. Perhaps on the next issue we'll be on the same side. Drop in to chat, and I'll even promise to be nice.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Perhaps the Trinity concept is hard to grasp because God is hard to grasp, and not because of its alleged "falseness."

That's not logical .. Almighty God is the Fairest of ALL Judges. He would not make it difficult for us to understand the difference between right and wrong!

 

[sojourner]

Jesus said otherwise. Read Matt 7:21-23. Many who think that they are good Christians are not going to be recognised by Jesus as his own in any way. When he says "I never knew you" he is telling these ones that they have NEVER been accepted by him as his disciples. He is repulsed by them and their works of "lawlessness".

And yet, "Ho, everyone who thirsts,
come to the waters;
and you that have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without price."

In my many years of calling on people of all faiths, it becomes apparent after some time that out of all those who claim to be Christian, Catholic people are the most gullible and the least Biblically educated of those who claim to follow Christ's teachings.

There are far more of them than anyone else, to begin with. It only stands to reason that there would be more illiterate ones. and, BTW, "gullible?" You're the one out trudging in the heat and cold. Just sayin'.

Catholic people that I have studied the Bible with are often angry at the lies that have been told to them all their lives....especially about Jesus and Mary and their relationship to God and his Christ. They become aware of God's view of idolatry and they are quick to get rid of their statuary and images. They see the Rosary for what it is and are grateful to be shown the truth about those things and how to pray to God correctly from the heart.

You don't feel that it's plain mean and very unacceptable to destroy peoples' beliefs, just to teach them "truths" that are wholly unfounded and misunderstood. That's almost worse than all the radicalizing being carried out by fringe Muslims these days.
I have statues and several rosaries. they mean a great deal to me; most of them were gifts -- and they remind me of God's imminence. I pray formula prayers; I know them by memory, they're familiar -- as familiar as the beating of my heart. And you're acting like a boor here. You need to remember that Catholics are people to be loved -- not objects to be dusted off and changed.

Or perhaps you just need to read a bit of history

You're projecting.

All that extra stuff that Catholics do is borrowed from non Christian religions.

Hah! That's a laugh! Everything in Xy is borrowed from non-Christian religions. Everything.

even to the mitre hat worn by Catholic Popes and high officials. Smacks of the fish god. Google it.

So. What.?! Xy is a relative newcomer to the religious scene. It's appropriated and mimicked lots of different religions. It was never as pure and undefiled as you'd like to think it is -- even your precious JW nonsense. The high and mighty attitude you're displaying here is oddly reminiscent of the Judaic Pharisees...

It makes me wonder just how much you really know about the beliefs and practices of your own church and their origins?

You should be wondering about A. Lot. of things. You don't know a thing about me, so don't go around thinking you know more than me, or know better than me, or are "more saved" than me. you should be wondering why your posts are so attitudinal.

You won't find any of the things I mentioned in the Bible, so where do you assume they come from?

From the same place the bible came from -- Tradition. You judge Catholics and Xy at large, but you're no better than any of it, because you're part of it.