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Why Is There No Book of Jesus?

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I'm pretty sure those three were pretty close to the events (regardless of the debate on which "Mary" it was written by).
Scholars are now leaning to the idea that Thomas, or at least the earliest layers of that Gospel were written possibly in the 60's C.E. That is still around three decades after Jesus was supposed to be crucified. And again, that is just a possibility that some scholars are researching. Much of it, if not all, from what we know, was compiled or written after the synoptics.

There is little evidence, if any, to support the idea that the writer was closely associated with the events that happened. Thomas is most likely not the actual writer either. The same being with both the Gospels of Mary and Judas. They were not written by the people who they are attributed to.

There was doubt about who wrote those Gospels even early on (the same being for John). That was one of the main reasons they were not accepted. What they were teaching was also a minority view, from a sect that was most likely not related to the actual first Jesus movement (the disciples).

There was really no reason for them to be included. Even if they were authentic, which there is no reason to believe them to be, they really didn't add much. They may be interesting to read, but it wouldn't have been needed to have so many different Gospels. Bart D. Ehrman has a very good book on this subject: Lost Scriptures.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
There is no evidence that Moses even existed (whether or not he did, I wouldn't say though). We know that the Torah came from 4 different sources that were compiled together. Simply, there is no evidence that Moses wrote the Torah. The fact that he writes about his death, plus events after his supposed death show beyond a shadow of death he can not be responsible for their entirety.

When Jesus mentioned the mosaic laws, it seems that he believed they were written by moses for he would call them 'the laws of Moses'

and there is also many instances in the OT where the torah is refered to as 'the laws of Moses' and at a time when the temple was in a ruined state and they were cleaning it up we read at 2Chronicles 34:14 : "Hil‧ki′ah the priest found the book of Jehovah’s law by the hand of Moses." Its possible that this were the 10 commandments moses wrote which were originally placed in the ark of the covenant that they had found hidden in the wall of the temple.

regarding the account about moses death, its pretty clear that it was his successor Joshua who wrote that because its follows on directly to the book of Joshua. That is also not an issue, it doesnt mean that moses did not write the laws. After his death, each king had to make his own copy of the laws and eventually there were many copies of the torah available which moses didnt write....but they were based on the laws he wrote.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Also, the Five Books of Moses was already written, and the oral law was forbidden to be written at that time.
Just to clarify though, they were not actually written by Moses.
It seems he was a student of Hillel, during the 70 years when Hillel was out of power. Hillel's students railed against the conservative House of Shammai, momentarily in power. The Shamai 'Parushim' (Pharisees) were the one's Jesus was complaining about, not all Parushim, of which Jesus seems to have been a member (because he seems to have been taught by the school of Hillel).
A lot of the complaining about Pharisees which we see in the Gospels is most likely not actually what Jesus thought. The Pharisees were not very powerful during that time. And actually, much of the teaching that Jesus was doing also was similar to the teachings of the Pharisees.

The complaints about the Pharisees was most likely the writers thoughts. The reason being that the Pharisees were the "ancestors" of Rabbinic Judaism, which did not really agree with the Jesus movement.
The House of Hillel returned to power and reinstituted their liberal inclusive theology, so, ironiclly, the Orthodox Jews of today are of the same school of liberal theology that included Jesus.

That's why Orthodox / Traditional Jews can't even get a grasp of the picture of what Jesus was complaining about, he argues for something Traditional Jews of today accept, that God cares about the low man, that anyone can get to God, that forgiveness from God is free to those who repent, etc.
This is a contradiction, or at least it seems that way. I don't understand how Orthodox/Traditional Jews can't grasp something that they accept?
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
When Jesus mentioned the mosaic laws, it seems that he believed they were written by moses for he would call them 'the laws of Moses'
Doesn't really prove anything though. It simply shows that by the first century, it was the current idea that Moses was the writer of those books.
and there is also many instances in the OT where the torah is refered to as 'the laws of Moses' and at a time when the temple was in a ruined state and they were cleaning it up we read at 2Chronicles 34:14 : "Hil‧ki′ah the priest found the book of Jehovah’s law by the hand of Moses." Its possible that this were the 10 commandments moses wrote which were originally placed in the ark of the covenant that they had found hidden in the wall of the temple.
Again, all this signifies that they believed that Moses wrote those books. If we even look at the Gospels/NT in general, we that in a relatively short time that they were accredited to people that we know that they did not belong to. To people who were most likely dead, and in some cases, we know to be dead.

regarding the account about moses death, its pretty clear that it was his successor Joshua who wrote that because its follows on directly to the book of Joshua. That is also not an issue, it doesnt mean that moses did not write the laws. After his death, each king had to make his own copy of the laws and eventually there were many copies of the torah available which moses didnt write....but they were based on the laws he wrote.
We see in this one case that the books, in their entirety, can not be accredited to Moses. That raises doubts in the first place.

More so though, we know that the Books of Moses are composed of four different sources. This explains for the multiple flood stories, multiple creation stories, etc. Scholars can distinctly pick out these four sources as they have distinct characteristics. Among scholars, there really is no debate on this subject. It is even taught in most mainstream seminaries; the problem is that it is not passed on to the congregations.
 

DarkSun

:eltiT
I think one reason would be that he was most likely illiterate. The literacy rate for first century Palestine was about 1-3%. Literacy was reserved primarily for the upper class, the elites. Jesus was a peasant, who probably had no real reason to learn to read or write.

This does not suggest that he was dumb though. Just that literacy was not something that would have been important to him.

I can't tell if you're joking... :p
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I really dont believe that the Jews in the first century, or ancient isrealites were as illiterate as people assume.

Amos was a raiser of sheep, and Micah was a prophet from a rural village; yet, both wrote books of the Bible.
The mosiac law required that the isrealites 'read Gods word day and night' ... who would put such a requirement on a nation who were illiterate?
Jesus was known to read publicly from the hebrew scriptures and could readily quote them...same with the apostles who were able to refer to the Hebrew Scriptures hundreds of times in their writings.
Archeologists also found a small limestone plaque called the Gezer Calendar which dates to around the 10th century BCE. Scholars believe that it belonged to a young farm boy because its written in verse (used as a memory aid) and lists the features of the agricultural year.

So to claim that the ancient people of Isreal or the 1st century jews were mostly illiterate is quite speculative....unless of course you have some evidence which can back up the claim.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I really dont believe that the Jews in the first century, or ancient isrealites were as illiterate as people assume.

Amos was a raiser of sheep, and Micah was a prophet from a rural village; yet, both wrote books of the Bible.
The mosiac law required that the isrealites 'read Gods word day and night' ... who would put such a requirement on a nation who were illiterate?
Jesus was known to read publicly from the hebrew scriptures and could readily quote them...same with the apostles who were able to refer to the Hebrew Scriptures hundreds of times in their writings.
Archeologists also found a small limestone plaque called the Gezer Calendar which dates to around the 10th century BCE. Scholars believe that it belonged to a young farm boy because its written in verse (used as a memory aid) and lists the features of the agricultural year.

So to claim that the ancient people of Isreal or the 1st century jews were mostly illiterate is quite speculative....unless of course you have some evidence which can back up the claim.
Amos and Micah may not have written the books accredited to them. That is the nature of the Bible. We know very little about who wrote the actual books. Yes, they are accredited to certain people, but for the most part, we simply don't know.

As for the mosaic law requiring people to read the scripture day and night, it really doesn't matter. In the first century C.E., buying copies of the scripture would have been quite expensive. One could only have them hand copied, which took money to do so. Under Roman occupation, we know that many Jews simply did not have many luxuries (as scrolls would have been). The reason being that they were lower class. Looking specifically at Nazareth, where Jesus was born and would have grown up, we know that they were for certain lower class. Jesus is called a tekton, or the son of a texton, which would put him very low on the social scale. He was an artisan peasant, which was lower than a farming peasant as they had no land. Basically, he was most likely equivalent to a modern day handy man. Barely surviving. They would not have had the money to buy scrolls. It just wasn't logical. And that is true for most 1st century Jews. It simply wasn't feasible.

As for Jesus reading publicly, only Luke mentions this. However his account simply is not probable. First, there was not a synagogue in Nazareth in the 1st century. The size of the town would not have even warrant one, plus, synagogues as architectural buildings did not develop until later on. Second, the verses that he supposedly read from Scripture would not have been possible to do so in the manner described because of the nature of scrolls, which were the medium of that time. Finally, there is no cliff that the towns people could have threatened to throw Jesus off unless they decided to chase him for quite a distance, and that is now what Luke says. There is no reason to believe that the verse in Luke is historically accurate.

However, they did live in an oral society. Meaning they were more apt to simply memorize different pieces. Scripture would have been something that religious figures would have memorized, the same way that they do today. It does not mean that they read the scripture though, but that they were taught it from family (who had already memorized it), or that they heard it read aloud, as was common during that time. So it is very likely that Jesus and the apostles knew scripture and had it memorized. That does not suggest they could read and write.

To go further with that though, it is for certain that the later writers added much of the scripture to the Gospels and NT by simply copying it from their sources. The thing with an oral society is that people remember the gist of what is being said. So Jesus and the apostles may not have quoted scripture 100% perfectly, but when the later writers wrote in the scripture that was supposedly uttered by Jesus or the apostles, they simply copied it from actual scripture instead of portraying what Jesus and the apostles actually said.

We know that the people who wrote the books of the New Testament could read and write. The thing though is that besides Paul (not all of the work that bears Paul's name was really written by him though), and the John who wrote Revelations (it is very likely that a John did write Revelations, we just don't know which one, and he was not closely related to Jesus or the disciples), we don't know who wrote the books of the New Testament. We know that they are accredited to people who supposedly were connected with Jesus or the disciples, but we also know that they simply were not. So besides Paul, who was not a disciple, we don't know which ones of Jesus's early followers could read and write, and we have no idea whether or not the disciples of Jesus were skilled in these areas. If they were, we have no evidence for it.

As for the literacy rates during the first century, in the Palestinian area, scholars agree that it was between 1-3%. During Roman occupation, it may have gotten to 10% at the highest, but that is leaning more towards the end of the first century, and further on that way. Here is one online source that explains it very well. Illiteracy in the Land of Israel in the first centuries c.e.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
accuatly there was ...but they modified (edit ) it after his rise up to God ... this is why were more than 4 gospels ...in the past ... they choose this 4 gospels (Mark, Mt,Luke, John) because these 4 books so close to the original book of Jesus (Peace up on him )
 

Requia

Active Member
I'm pretty sure those three were pretty close to the events (regardless of the debate on which "Mary" it was written by).

Mary and Judas aren't written by Mary and Judas, but about them. Thomas also wasn't written by Thomas, though it claims to be Thomas's words.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
accuatly there was ...but they modified (edit ) it after his rise up to God ... this is why were more than 4 gospels ...in the past ... they choose this 4 gospels (Mark, Mt,Luke, John) because these 4 books so close to the original book of Jesus (Peace up on him )
That's not why they choose those Gospels. There were various reasons. However, none of them are really close to a historical Jesus as the Gospels were not written to be simply biographies.

Also, there is no original book of Jesus. As far as we know, Mark is the first Gospel.
 
I haven't read all the thread yet, but, I have read that, according to the early Christians (and one of the Church Fathers, Clement of Alexandria), there was a secret, oral, tradition to Christianity, a esoteric tradition that only were a few were ready for, so, maybe, Jesus let others write down his words, or, at least, the gist of what he was saying (e.g. the Sermon on the Mount, etc), and taught by oral mean, to his closest disciples, and told them never to write down what he told them in secret (if I recall, the Buddha never wrote anything either, and I think some of his sayings were written down by his later followers).
 

Requia

Active Member
Clement's only link to secret works that I'm aware of is the Mar Saba letter, the authenticity of which is highly disputed, and the mar saba letter refers to a written work. Assuming by 'early Christians' you mean the Gnostics, those secret works were also written and not oral.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
That's not why they choose those Gospels. There were various reasons. However, none of them are really close to a historical Jesus as the Gospels were not written to be simply biographies.

Also, there is no original book of Jesus. As far as we know, Mark is the first Gospel.
Well , all the evidence proof that there was a Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) , We the muslims believe that there was a massive modification of his Book that the Christians called it inspirations , that is why we in our hands (many books) in the new testement , that contient more that 4 gospels and others books .

the authors are not eyewitness ,they are Greek speaking christians living 35-65 years after the events they narrate




http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080924064323AA80E8a

these authors edited the original Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) then tell the people that Jesus (pbuh) came to them...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXTgB6yeEkM

 
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fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Well , all the evidence proof that there was a Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) , We the muslims believe that there was a massive modification of his Book that the Christians called it inspirations , that is why we in our hands (many books) in the new testement , that contient more that 4 gospels and others books .

the authors are not eyewitness ,they are Greek speaking christians living 35-65 years after the events they narrate
Yes, Christians had more than the four Gospels we see in the New Testament. There were dozens of Gospels, and we have rediscovered some of them. There are those that claimed that Jesus never died on the cross. However, these later Gospels are not considered reliable for a research of the historical Jesus for the simple reason that they are so far distant. All that they are really useful for is to show us what later Christians believed.

There is no credible evidence that a Gospel of Jesus existed. Only Gospels written about Jesus. The earliest one we know of being Mark, having been written about 70 C.E.
 

Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
...the authors are not eyewitness ,they are Greek speaking christians living 35-65 years after the events they narrate...

I agree, but one has to wonder what original documents they worked from. In some Messianic circles, we talk about a 'Teaching Scroll of Matthias' as being the core original source for the Sermon on the Mount, and the other teachings and parables to be found primarily in Matthew. Matthew was, by tradition, a tax collector and most likely literate. Rather than a biography as we see in the 'gospel', what Matthias would have recorded of his Rebbi would have been his teachings and sayings, in standard Jewish fashion. The sayings of the man, and not the chronological events of his life, is what would have been of importance to his disciples. Later on, these teachings and sayings would be woven into the biography form of the 'gospels'. Along with folk tales, legends, rumors, recollections, and memoirs. It is the goal of true Messianic Jews to strip these other graftings away and restore the pure teachings, as best is possible.
 
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Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Yes, Christians had more than the four Gospels we see in the New Testament. There were dozens of Gospels,

Woooow ,this is exactly what we( muslims ) believe, the massive modification of the original Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) , dozens of Gospels , mean dozens of editors (what you called them authors ) lol . it's anormale for God sent many Gospels to many authors after the rise of Jesus (pbuh) right !?!:yes:
 

RickDeVon

New Member
Since he taught actively for only three years, not enough time really before the rather abrupt end. I have heard speculation that his sayings were written down by some of his direct followers. These would be just his sayings and parables, nothing else. These sayings were supposedly later incorporated into what was called gospels, and that Matthew contains the most of them, as they were woven into the 'story' of his life. However, this (speculative) earliest documented record of his sayings is lost in time.
ONLY THREE YEARS...and they are still talking about our Lord and Saviour...Just saying...and you won't get much out of me...
 
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