Why Islam, Christianity and modern Judaism are all apostate religious institutions.

[catch22]

Jesus said that ALL of the law of Moses will exist until "heaven and earth pass away". Even the "smallest law". Paul taught that Jesus' sacrifice removed the need to keep the law of Moses. Jesus never taught this.

It's safe to say you misunderstand the passage. We're referencing the same verses in both our posts, so let's get it up on screen and have at it. Matthew 5:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus didn't come to abolish or destroy the law. He did fulfill it, though, as He says here. His further explanation is that indeed the law will exist until "everything is accomplished." You misunderstand his aside of heaven and earth passing away, it was a measure of greatness and scope, not a declaration of binding nature. He's also merely saying it won't be ALTERED. He goes on further to say that those who practice and teach it will be called great in the kingdom of heaven, whereas those that do not would be less. Again, not binding, and both groups are clearly referenced in heaven, one is simply held in higher esteem. So greater is the reward for those who adhere to God's moral truths.

Christians call this sanctification. But, no where does Christ call it binding, nor say it's binding forever -- in fact He says kind of the opposite when He says He fulfills it.

Do you understand the fulfillment of the law? It was designed to stand until it was accomplished. Christ fulfilled the law in that He lived it and observed it -- something no other can do. Since God can measure this, His Son is the only worthy example, as the rest of the New Testament makes clear. In other words, the entirety of the Old Testament is about Jesus, and He fulfills it with His life, death, and resurrection.

The law still exists. It is not binding as you understood it for our forefathers, though. It is good to practice it and keep it as Jesus tells us we'll be spoken of as great if we do (but are not condemned if we don't). Salvation does not hinge on it. For if it did, none would be saved. Hence, the need for Christ.

And Wow! He even goes on to say that unless your righteousness exceeds the Pharisees and teachers of the law, you'll never enter heaven. Considering He calls them snakes in a den of vipers at one point, and constantly rebukes them for their overly lawful interpretation of God's Word, one should be mystified by this statement. However, He's only making it clear that none are saved under the law, even the most righteous who uphold, since none can fulfill it... none but He.

Blessings.

 

[catch22]

You also never answered my question: can God add to His work?

 

[The road to light1]

There are plenty of websites that list the contradictions. Some try to provide answers etc. My point isn't to catalog a list but to point out that the claim of perfection is open to challenge and is answerable (as you have, "Some of them bring only part of the verse and ignore the rest.") in the same way that other texts are challenged by you but their adherents could answer you similarly. Your text is no more provably perfect and infallible than anyone else's.

There are people who don't understand the meanng of the verses, or they combine two verses from different chapters, or bring part of the verse as i said without the continuation. So, they claim there are contradictions. They also may not know about Hadith that explains everything about the Quran.To clarify more, You should bring me an example.

Sahih International Surat Al-Baqara verse (2)

"This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -"

 

[Akivah]

I will search my God and stand on my own two feet before Him. When God restores the Levites to the land we will all be on the same page again when it comes to the details. Until then, every man is on His own to seek out righteousness and discernment.

If you claim that every man is on his own to seek out righteousness and discernment, then how can you tell us that everybody but you is doing it wrong?

 

[Simplelogic]

So how do YOU define work? And how could the sabbath be meant for the land when it was a commandment given in the desert with rules that related to desert times? How exactly do you understand אל-יצא איש ממקמו--ביום השביעי?

And if you don't add or take away any rules, then where do you keep the shovel you use to bury your feces?

Your sarcasm aside, how would do you apply the Torah Law that I quoted to everyday living? What is this "work" to avoid so that we can avoid the death penalty?

The question should first be asked. How would an ancient Israelite, who lived in an agrarian society, define work? Then you can work backwards from there. Obviously we aren't an agrarian society now. So how do the principals of agricultural work apply to the modern age? There is a very simple way to apply these principals to the modern day but part of the problem is due to the fact that WE ARE NOT AN AGRARIAN CULTURE like God purposed for us! One of the curses of living in diaspora. Its not supposed to be easy to apply the Torah to diaspora, thats the whole point! We are all to seek and meditate on God's commandments and not assume some elite group has all the right answers for us. Faith takes WORK AND DILIGENCE. We will all be unified in PERFECT obedience when messiah and the levites come and are restored. God favors a man who is sincerely seeking true Sabbath observance. EVEN IF HE ISN'T DOING IT PERFECTLY. But the man who thinks he is in right standing with God because he regurgitates Rabbinic law is fooling himself.

 

[Simplelogic]

If you claim that every man is on his own to seek out righteousness and discernment, then how can you tell us that everybody but you is doing it wrong?

I never said that. I said the institutions of religion are a hindrance to people's personal spiritual growth. Because all religious leaders attempt to put themselves between God and the individual. Claiming some type of exclusive mantle of authority. Lazy people who don't want to toil with God love these institutions. Righteous people who take ownership of their own beliefs may belong to one of these institutions but they know that something is sincerely wrong with it deep down. I never claimed that there aren't honest and sincere people in all of those religions though.

I don't claim that all Jews who don't adhere to my interpretation of Torah are wrong!! Thats precisely my point! I claim that all people must seek righteousness PERSONALLY and not depend on a group of elites to guide them.

 

[Simplelogic]

You also never answered my question: can God add to His work?

Not if it nullifies what He previously said about His own law. No.

 

[Simplelogic]

It's safe to say you misunderstand the passage. We're referencing the same verses in both our posts, so let's get it up on screen and have at it. Matthew 5:



Jesus didn't come to abolish or destroy the law. He did fulfill it, though, as He says here. His further explanation is that indeed the law will exist until "everything is accomplished." You misunderstand his aside of heaven and earth passing away, it was a measure of greatness and scope, not a declaration of binding nature. He's also merely saying it won't be ALTERED. He goes on further to say that those who practice and teach it will be called great in the kingdom of heaven, whereas those that do not would be less. Again, not binding, and both groups are clearly referenced in heaven, one is simply held in higher esteem. So greater is the reward for those who adhere to God's moral truths.

Christians call this sanctification. But, no where does Christ call it binding, nor say it's binding forever -- in fact He says kind of the opposite when He says He fulfills it.

Do you understand the fulfillment of the law? It was designed to stand until it was accomplished. Christ fulfilled the law in that He lived it and observed it -- something no other can do. Since God can measure this, His Son is the only worthy example, as the rest of the New Testament makes clear. In other words, the entirety of the Old Testament is about Jesus, and He fulfills it with His life, death, and resurrection.

The law still exists. It is not binding as you understood it for our forefathers, though. It is good to practice it and keep it as Jesus tells us we'll be spoken of as great if we do (but are not condemned if we don't). Salvation does not hinge on it. For if it did, none would be saved. Hence, the need for Christ.

And Wow! He even goes on to say that unless your righteousness exceeds the Pharisees and teachers of the law, you'll never enter heaven. Considering He calls them snakes in a den of vipers at one point, and constantly rebukes them for their overly lawful interpretation of God's Word, one should be mystified by this statement. However, He's only making it clear that none are saved under the law, even the most righteous who uphold, since none can fulfill it... none but He.

Blessings.

Can you show me where Jesus taught this?

 

[Nakosis]

All three of these religious institutions have ONE thing in common. They all believe that the law of Moses was divinely given by God. Ironically, none of these religious institutions believe in exclusively following this law. Each one has made up clever ways to circumvent the Torah guidelines. Yet the Torah itself condemns the practicing of "adding to" or "taking away" commandments:

Assuming that the story of Moses itself was not derived from earlier religions.

"And the recycled mythology continues with Moses, who is clearly fashioned after the Syrian Mises, and the ‘laws’ found in Exodus are obviously influenced by Hammurabi’s code. Egyptian scriptures even supplied the biblical Messiah. Between Jesus and the Egyptian Horus there are hundreds of similarities, much like those between Christ and Krishna. One of the oldest known civilizations, the Sumerians, were one of the first to keep a written record of their beliefs. The similarities between the stories written on these surviving clay tablets and the ones contained in the bible are so striking and so numerous it would be easier simply to direct you to a few websites that thoroughly catalog the parallels."
The Mythological Origins of Christianity Pt. 1 of 3 | Doubting Thomas' Weblog

Christians assume Jesus was a Prophet, Islam assumes Mohammad was a Prophet, Jews had a number of prophets. Why accept any particular prophet and not the others? How is you position any better than the other religions? The Torah was written down from 400 to 600 BCE. How do you know the Torah itself was not altered?

Where you draw the line as to whom to believe seems arbitrary. The justification is because that is what you want to believe, which is fine. Take your best shot a which religious figure/prophet to believe in. I don't see this as making anyone's position superior though.

 

[Simplelogic]

Assuming that the story of Moses itself was not derived from earlier religions.

"And the recycled mythology continues with Moses, who is clearly fashioned after the Syrian Mises, and the ‘laws’ found in Exodus are obviously influenced by Hammurabi’s code. Egyptian scriptures even supplied the biblical Messiah. Between Jesus and the Egyptian Horus there are hundreds of similarities, much like those between Christ and Krishna. One of the oldest known civilizations, the Sumerians, were one of the first to keep a written record of their beliefs. The similarities between the stories written on these surviving clay tablets and the ones contained in the bible are so striking and so numerous it would be easier simply to direct you to a few websites that thoroughly catalog the parallels."
The Mythological Origins of Christianity Pt. 1 of 3 | Doubting Thomas' Weblog

Christians assume Jesus was a Prophet, Islam assumes Mohammad was a Prophet, Jews had a number of prophets. Why accept any particular prophet and not the others? How is you position any better than the other religions? The Torah was written down from 400 to 600 BCE. How do you know the Torah itself was not altered?

Where you draw the line as to whom to believe seems arbitrary. The justification is because that is what you want to believe, which is fine. Take your best shot a which religious figure/prophet to believe in. I don't see this as making anyone's position superior though.

You can say what you want about the validity of the law of Moses. I would be happy to defend it against the bogus myth that the Torah was hijacked form Egypt. Easily debunked.

My point is that a religion is bogus if it claims the law of Moses as "divine revelation" yet goes against or nullifies those same commandments.

 

[Godobeyer]

Was Moses one of God's messengers?

Indeed , Moses (pbuh) was God's messenger to the Jews .

btw God updating His laws depending the people and time and situation , that's why there were many God's messengers .

 

[Simplelogic]

Indeed , Moses (pbuh) was God's messenger to the Jews .

btw God updating his laws depending the people and time and condition , that's why there were many God's messengers .

Not according to the Law of Moses. There is no concept of a future prophet "adding to it". Actually it tells that ANY prophet who teaches "other commands" must be rejected. So your prophet has no basis according to the law of Moses. Thats fine if you want to follow him. But don't pretend he is endorsed by the God of Israel. He most certainly is NOT.

 

[Godobeyer]

Not according to the Law of Moses. There is no concept of a future prophet "adding to it". Actually it tells that ANY prophet who teaches "other commands" must be rejected. So your prophet has no basis according to the law of Moses. Thats fine if you want to follow him. But don't pretend he is endorsed by the God of Israel. He most certainly is NOT.

God religion did not start with Moses (pbuh) laws .

So what the other Messengers were doing ?

just for remind you about Ibrahim(pbuh) ,Noah(pbuh) ...etc ,they never heard about Moses's Law .

btw for my opinion , it's suppose called "God's law to Moses (pbuh)" , NOT "Law of Moses" (pbuh).

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

Apostate in your religion? Well thats fine with me

 

[Simplelogic]

God religion did not start with Moses (pbuh) laws .

So what the other Messengers were doing ?

just for remind you about Ibrahim(pbuh) ,Noah(pbuh) ...etc ,they never heard about Moses's Law .

btw for my opinion , it's suppose called "God's law to Moses (pbuh)" , NOT "Law of Moses" (pbuh).

Are you aware that Abraham was already following many of the Torah commands including:

-Marriage laws
-Kosher laws
-Sabbath
-Civil commands (relating to murder etc)
-Circumcision

This was all BEFORE the Torah was written at Mt. Sinai.

 

[Simplelogic]

This is why God said this to Abraham:

"Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; BECAUSE Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws." Genesis 26:3-5

 

[rosends]

There are people who don't understand the meanng of the verses, or they combine two verses from different chapters, or bring part of the verse as i said without the continuation. So, they claim there are contradictions. They also may not know about Hadith that explains everything about the Quran.To clarify more, You should bring me an example.

Sahih International Surat Al-Baqara verse (2)

"This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -"

There are people who don't understand the meaning of the verses, or if they misread the material or part of a verse, claim, "they were modified and distorted by humans". They also may not know about the talmud which explains everything about the Torah.

See, same argument.

 

[Simplelogic]

Apostate in your religion? Well thats fine with me

Apostate according to the Law of Moses.

"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deut 4: 2

"Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it. Deut 12: 32

Regarding false prophets:

1“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4“You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. Deut 13: 2-5

Prophets who come to us with "other commandments" are false prophets.

 

[rosends]

The question should first be asked. How would an ancient Israelite, who lived in an agrarian society, define work? Then you can work backwards from there. Obviously we aren't an agrarian society now. So how do the principals of agricultural work apply to the modern age? There is a very simple way to apply these principals to the modern day but part of the problem is due to the fact that WE ARE NOT AN AGRARIAN CULTURE like God purposed for us! One of the curses of living in diaspora. Its not supposed to be easy to apply the Torah to diaspora, thats the whole point! We are all to seek and meditate on God's commandments and not assume some elite group has all the right answers for us. Faith takes WORK AND DILIGENCE. We will all be unified in PERFECT obedience when messiah and the levites come and are restored. God favors a man who is sincerely seeking true Sabbath observance. EVEN IF HE ISN'T DOING IT PERFECTLY. But the man who thinks he is in right standing with God because he regurgitates Rabbinic law is fooling himself.

The ancient Israelite received the laws when he was standing in the middle of a desert. There was no mention of "agrarian society" or textual proof that work has anything to do with being a farmer, a shepherd or an accountant. It just isn't there -- you have added it even though you say that the text forbids adding things. You have decided that you are an authority and that through your personal meditation, you have gotten to a right answer but your answer is based on the mistaken interpolation of this agrarian notion into the text. Work backwards. They were in the desert and were told not to work. Are you then saying that all laws were intended for us to be in the desert or else they don't apply?

 

[Simplelogic]

The ancient Israelite received the laws when he was standing in the middle of a desert. There was no mention of "agrarian society" or textual proof that work has anything to do with being a farmer, a shepherd or an accountant. It just isn't there -- you have added it even though you say that the text forbids adding things. You have decided that you are an authority and that through your personal meditation, you have gotten to a right answer but your answer is based on the mistaken interpolation of this agrarian notion into the text. Work backwards. They were in the desert and were told not to work. Are you then saying that all laws were intended for us to be in the desert or else they don't apply?

Don't be silly. The Torah commands were given in the desert with the intention of them taking them into the land of Israel to fully practice them. It only took so long because of stubbornness.