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Why Islam, Christianity and modern Judaism are all apostate religious institutions.

catch22

Active Member
Where do we want to begin.

-The pagan trinity and holidays you keep in the "name of Jesus"?

Whoa, whoa. Which pagan holidays? Christmas, easter? It's not even called "Christ"mas anymore, it's a holiday tree, get the memo. Atheists "practice" a gift giving tradition on December 25th, it's not even a Christian holiday, unless you can cite the scripture to back it up?

Otherwise, it's a hallmark cultural holiday, I guess. By my best guesstimation, Jesus wasn't born in the winter -- maybe the spring or early summer? But it's not recorded exactly.

-The lawless doctrines of Paul?

If your other thread is representative of your arguments, I'll consider it defeated.

-Predestination? (also Paul)

There is inner church debate about this stemming from post-Pauline thought anyway (Armenianists vs Calvinists, for example). That said, even Jesus referred to predestination.

Did Jesus and Paul Teach the Same Thing?|Yes|Jesus and Paul Taught Same Thing

^^ Also should help clarify some of your anti-Paul thinking.

-Replacement theology and antisemitism?

Take your pick

Um, so, Jesus was a jew. Next.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Taking a break from this forum. I will check it periodically. I maintain that Islam, Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism are all apostate religions based off of the Torah alone.

Gotcha.
IOW: "I'm picking up my marbles and going home" sour-grapes.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Whoa, whoa. Which pagan holidays? Christmas, easter? It's not even called "Christ"mas anymore, it's a holiday tree, get the memo. Atheists "practice" a gift giving tradition on December 25th, it's not even a Christian holiday, unless you can cite the scripture to back it up?

Otherwise, it's a hallmark cultural holiday, I guess. By my best guesstimation, Jesus wasn't born in the winter -- maybe the spring or early summer? But it's not recorded exactly.

If your other thread is representative of your arguments, I'll consider it defeated.

There is inner church debate about this stemming from post-Pauline thought anyway (Armenianists vs Calvinists, for example). That said, even Jesus referred to predestination.

Did Jesus and Paul Teach the Same Thing?|Yes|Jesus and Paul Taught Same Thing

^^ Also should help clarify some of your anti-Paul thinking.

Um, so, Jesus was a jew. Next.

-Christmas/Easter- Over 95% of ALL Christians keep these holidays in the name of Jesus. Can't get around that. Constantine did a good job mixing paganism into Christianity. I am well aware that Christmas is not in the NT my friend. You can't claim its not a Christian holiday when almost all Christians keep it as such.

-Jesus never taught predestination. Please site verse proving otherwise. Romans 9 is based off of numerous misquotes of the Tanakh. I will be glad to show you each one if you want. In fact, I can show you numerous cases where Paul purposely quotes the Tanakh out of context to make his points. Shall I proceed with Romans 9 and predestination?
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Actually…lets start with Romans 3. I will come back to Romans 9 because they both are good examples of Paul's deceitful misquotes. More to follow.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
-Christmas/Easter- Over 95% of ALL Christians keep these holidays in the name of Jesus. Can't get around that. Constantine did a good job mixing paganism into Christianity. I am well aware that Christmas is not in the NT my friend. You can't claim its not a Christian holiday when almost all Christians keep it as such.

-Jesus never taught predestination. Please site verse proving otherwise. Romans 9 is based off of numerous misquotes of the Tanakh. I will be glad to show you each one if you want. In fact, I can show you numerous cases where Paul purposely quotes the Tanakh out of context to make his points. Shall I proceed with Romans 9 and predestination?
Really?! This is the best ya got?? Wow. Scraping the bottom of the barrel for "reasons to dis Xy," aren't we?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Actually…lets start with Romans 3. I will come back to Romans 9 because they both are good examples of Paul's deceitful misquotes. More to follow.
Your posts thus far don't inspire a lot of faith in your ability to distinguish a mosquito from a hole in your head.
 

catch22

Active Member
-Christmas/Easter- Over 95% of ALL Christians keep these holidays in the name of Jesus. Can't get around that. Constantine did a good job mixing paganism into Christianity. I am well aware that Christmas is not in the NT my friend. You can't claim its not a Christian holiday when almost all Christians keep it as such.

-Jesus never taught predestination. Please site verse proving otherwise. Romans 9 is based off of numerous misquotes of the Tanakh. I will be glad to show you each one if you want. In fact, I can show you numerous cases where Paul purposely quotes the Tanakh out of context to make his points. Shall I proceed with Romans 9 and predestination?

Yes yes, conversions from paganism, etc, overlapping holidays, we get it. It's not a biblical holiday. Christians celebrate halloween too, we gonna make that Christian? Thanksgiving...? Sheesh.

Read the link I posted, there's a section on predestination.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Yes yes, conversions from paganism, etc, overlapping holidays, we get it. It's not a biblical holiday. Christians celebrate halloween too, we gonna make that Christian? Thanksgiving...? Sheesh.

Read the link I posted, there's a section on predestination.
  1. Jesus
    1. "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given," (Matt. 19:11).
    2. "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
    3. "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day," (John 6:44).
    4. "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father," (John 6:65).
None of these verses have a thing to do with predestination. Only if you read Paul's twisted logic back into these verses can you even arrive at that conclusion. Why does God drawing people to Himself imply predestination or foreordination? All it means is God draws people to Himself, thats all!
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
  1. Jesus
    1. "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given," (Matt. 19:11).
    2. "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
    3. "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day," (John 6:44).
    4. "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father," (John 6:65).
None of these verses have a thing to do with predestination. Only if you read Paul's twisted logic back into these verses can you even arrive at that conclusion. Why does God drawing people to Himself imply predestination or foreordination? All it means is God draws people to Himself, thats all!
Paul's not a predestinist. :rolleyes:
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Paul's deceitful misquotes of scripture (Romans 3)

As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seek after God. They have all gone out of the way; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no not one. Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes." Romans 3:10-18

This is Paul's apparent direct quote from Scripture that is supposed to prove to us that no one is righteous, but all are full of evil. Now guess what? No such passage exists! What Paul quotes is a compilation of no less than sixseparate passages that have been jerked out of their original context from the Psalms and the book of Isaiah, given an interpretation that cannot be found there, and strung together to appear as one quote.

Paul's accuracy in quoting from the Psalms is no better. The first passage he quotes in verses 10-12 comes from Psalm 14. Here is his version again.

As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all gone out of the way; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one." Romans 3:10-12

Now here is the passage quoted accurately, and in its context.

The fool has said in his heart, "there is no God". They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call on the Lord? There they are in great fear, for God is with thegeneration of the RIGHTEOUS. Psalm 14:1-5

Guess what? In David's picture there are no atheistic fools who do good! This passage is obviously not speaking of every human being, but of a distinct group of people whom David describes as fools, atheists, workers of abominations, corrupt, ignorant, and workers of iniquity. Of course, not one of them do good. And these evil people are contrasted with a second group of real people known as "my people" and "the generation of the righteous". Right there in this very Psalm that Paul quotes from, there are obviously those whom God calls "righteous"! This is hardly the picture Paul wants us to get from this Psalm. Notice also Paul's embellishment of this passage. He would have us believe the phrase, "no, not one" is used twice when it is only used once. The first time Paul uses the phrase is where it doesn't exist, and it is coupled with the word "righteous". This word does not exist in this part of the Psalm, or anywhere near the words "no, not one". The word "righteous" only shows up later in verse 5, and there it directly implies that there are those who are righteous! So much for "no, not one".

In Paul's string of quotes, he continues to take snippets of Scripture out of their context from Psalm 5:9, Psalm 140:3, Psalm 10:7, Isaiah 59:7,8, and Psalm 36:1. In each and every case, the unrighteous individuals spoken of in these passages are specifically evil men, and in the greater context of these passages, the evil men are contrasted with those who are called "the righteous", "the upright", and "the innocent". Please check for yourself. Not only is there no support for Paul's picture in these passages, but in their proper context, the exact opposite is firmly established.
 

catch22

Active Member
  1. Jesus
    1. "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given," (Matt. 19:11).
    2. "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
    3. "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day," (John 6:44).
    4. "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father," (John 6:65).
None of these verses have a thing to do with predestination. Only if you read Paul's twisted logic back into these verses can you even arrive at that conclusion. Why does God drawing people to Himself imply predestination or foreordination? All it means is God draws people to Himself, thats all!

Right, so if Paul spends a lot of time writing, with educated scribes, his lexicon might be more vast, can better put it into words... So because Christ doesn't say "predestination" outright, it means it's not what he's teaching? Is that your position? Because you're muddling words, not meaning.

Why are you and sojourner at odds, when he makes the same case for homosexuality, anyway? You guys argue the same, it seems.

How can #3 or #4 not seem obvious? Romans 8:29-30 essentially says the same thing with more fluent language. Tell me how one, per Jesus' own words, comes to Christ? If the Father chooses it and the Father is all knowing God, can you argue it's willy nilly or designed ahead of time? When Jesus references the "elect" what do you think he's talking about...?

EDIT: For what it's worth, I don't think Christ nor Paul were deterministic in the Calvinist sense of the notion, at least not in such a hard lined manner. I'm not, at least, because I don't think it's what EITHER are teaching; people get hung up on language and words rather than concepts; I don't know.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Right, so if Paul spends a lot of time writing, with educated scribes, his lexicon might be more vast, can better put it into words... So because Christ doesn't say "predestination" outright, it means it's not what he's teaching? Is that your position? Because you're muddling words, not meaning.

Why are you and sojourner at odds, when he makes the same case for homosexuality, anyway? You guys argue the same, it seems.

How can #3 or #4 not seem obvious? Romans 8:29-30 essentially says the same thing with more fluent language. Tell me how one, per Jesus' own words, comes to Christ? If the Father chooses it and the Father is all knowing God, can you argue it's willy nilly or designed ahead of time? When Jesus references the "elect" what do you think he's talking about...?
I don't listen to sojourner.

All of Romans 9 (predestination) is based off of misleading quotes from the Tanakh. Would be more than happy to demonstrate if you want.

Oh….and Paul was not one of the twelve apostles. He has no authority as one.
 
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