• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Why isn't God a lair?

Emp-Naval

Unsure humanoid
Everyone thinks an omniscient, omnipotent being must share our morals. They use evil as proof against such a being. However, it is just as likely that God is evil or simply doesn't care about us. Do you care about an ant you walk by. You would not kill it or help it. Its so insignificant who cares. Perhaps God feels the same about us.
Sometimes I think we were created to teach God morality. An omniscient and all powerful being will not have ethics because it cannot understand finite things such as altruism, ( God can never self sacrifice because he always wins).
Perhaps the incarnation can be seen as God tapping into finite power. God became man so he could experience courage etc.
Actually I am an agnostic. But I think speculations facilitate understanding.

You are expressing some deistic beliefs, and I think deists are not meant to answer this question, because simply it's irrelevant to them...

My question is directed to traditional theists -if that describes them correctly-, the ones that believe in a god who cares, like christians, muslims, so on...
 

raw_thought

Well-Known Member
One could argue that the creation is Maya * ( a lie) and that God is omnipresent. The illusion of separation creates a cosmic drama.( God's glory)
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion)
Click on the above and then click on "Maya illusion" For some reason wiki does not work properly. Whenever there is a parenthesis, it does not give the whole address
 
Last edited:

Emp-Naval

Unsure humanoid
One could argue that the creation is Maya ( a lie) and that God is omnipresent. The illusion of separation creates a cosmic drama.( God's glory)

So basically you are saying that we could be just the illusion god imposed upon himself -herself/itself-?

Interesting idea, but hold on to that, because we are drifting away from the main subject here...
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
What if God -anyone of them- is actually a liar? What if he is lying about everything, what if he is going to send us all to hell regardless? -I'm having an Abrahamic god in mind in case you were wondering, but it pretty much applies to any god.

I'm afraid that it doesn't. Most religions don't have a hell, and in most cases the relationship between gods and humans, as well as the nature of the gods, is understood much differently than what you seem to be assuming here. As a polytheist/pantheist/animist, there's very little to chew on here. It would be an inappropriate anthropomorphism to describe most of the gods I worship as liars or as honest. They don't have any concept of these things. For those that do, they run the whole spectrum; some gods are known to be liars, deceivers, or tricksters because that is their nature or role. In many cases, the labels we stick on the gods is a human interpretation of them, not necessarily their actual nature. But that is part of the fun; our understanding of the gods is always a map of the territory, and the stories we weave inform how we choose to see the world and how we choose to live in it.
 

Emp-Naval

Unsure humanoid
I'm afraid that it doesn't. Most religions don't have a hell, and in most cases the relationship between gods and humans, as well as the nature of the gods, is understood much differently than what you seem to be assuming here. As a polytheist/pantheist/animist, there's very little to chew on here. It would be an inappropriate anthropomorphism to describe most of the gods I worship as liars or as honest. They don't have any concept of these things. For those that do, they run the whole spectrum; some gods are known to be liars, deceivers, or tricksters because that is their nature or role. In many cases, the labels we stick on the gods is a human interpretation of them, not necessarily their actual nature. But that is part of the fun; our understanding of the gods is always a map of the territory, and the stories we weave inform how we choose to see the world and how we choose to live in it.

I don't know about the statistics, but you could be right, maybe most of religions don't believe in hell... But most religious people do... Think Christians, Muslims, Jews...
I don't know where did this information came from, but I heard like a gazillion times, and I'm sick of it...

As for your particular religion, again if your god/gods, doesn't have any such concept then you were not meant to answer it...
 

Emp-Naval

Unsure humanoid
Except, you're the one being ignorant. My response is an actual answer to your question... --- Also, it should be spelled LIAR, not lair.

Care to elaborate?

And for the spelling, yeah I misspelled, as anyone -especially non english speakers such as me- do every once in a while =]
 

Emp-Naval

Unsure humanoid
I'm afraid that it doesn't. Most religions don't have a hell, and in most cases the relationship between gods and humans, as well as the nature of the gods, is understood much differently than what you seem to be assuming here. As a polytheist/pantheist/animist, there's very little to chew on here. It would be an inappropriate anthropomorphism to describe most of the gods I worship as liars or as honest. They don't have any concept of these things. For those that do, they run the whole spectrum; some gods are known to be liars, deceivers, or tricksters because that is their nature or role. In many cases, the labels we stick on the gods is a human interpretation of them, not necessarily their actual nature. But that is part of the fun; our understanding of the gods is always a map of the territory, and the stories we weave inform how we choose to see the world and how we choose to live in it.

I'm really fighting the temptation not to start attacking your beliefs, it's so ....bizarre, to say the least hahahahaha
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm really fighting the temptation not to start attacking your beliefs, it's so ....bizarre, to say the least hahahahaha

What's bizarre about it? I think the classical monotheism (which unfortunately sometimes gets called "traditional theism" instead) is substantially more bizarre as a conception of god(s), precisely because of the kinds of questions you're asking. It has never seemed logical to me, but perhaps that's part of the point.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Care to elaborate?

And for the spelling, yeah I misspelled, as anyone -especially non english speakers such as me- do every once in a while =]

It doesn't particularly matter if God is a liar.. We are alive. Much of our lives contains truth, whereas at other times, not so much. The Laws of the Universe aren't failing, or changing. We can expect science to still be science tomorrow-- the birds fly, the fish swim, etc.. And for these reasons it doesn't matter if God lies, because we still have truths that we can rely on, day after day until we die. If God wants to lie after we're dead, it still wouldn't matter, because His lies would still become our truth.
 

Emp-Naval

Unsure humanoid
It doesn't particularly matter if God is a liar.. We are alive. Much of our lives contains truth, whereas at other times, not so much. The Laws of the Universe aren't failing, or changing. We can expect science to still be science tomorrow-- the birds fly, the fish swim, etc.. And for these reasons it doesn't matter if God lies, because we still have truths that we can rely on, day after day until we die. If God wants to lie after we're dead, it still wouldn't matter, because His lies would still become our truth.

First of, you sound like an atheist, or a humanist... But, assuming that there is a god, then it pretty much matters!!! At least for the religious folks...

Religious people live their lives up to standards that make no sense outside the religion... The god they worship will offer them a reward after they die -some believe even before you die!-... So if he is lying then they have wasted their lives. I don't know about you but that is quite a big deal!

As for his lies becoming our truths after we die... Well if by truth you mean reality, then of course... But it doesn't mean he haven't lied.. He would be a bloody liar...
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
First of, you sound like an atheist, or a humanist... But, assuming that there is a god, then it pretty much matters!!! At least for the religious folks...

Religious people live their lives up to standards that make no sense outside the religion... The god they worship will offer them a reward after they die -some believe even before you die!-... So if he is lying then they have wasted their lives. I don't know about you but that is quite a big deal!

As for his lies becoming our truths after we die... Well if by truth you mean reality, then of course... But it doesn't mean he haven't lied.. He would be a bloody liar...

You should ask them this question:

Is/are the God(s) rewarding you for your worship? Most of them will say that they are being rewarded both here and now, and thereafter death. And they will all have stories to tell.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
First of, you sound like an atheist, or a humanist... But, assuming that there is a god, then it pretty much matters!!! At least for the religious folks...

Religious people live their lives up to standards that make no sense outside the religion... The god they worship will offer them a reward after they die -some believe even before you die!-... So if he is lying then they have wasted their lives. I don't know about you but that is quite a big deal!

As for his lies becoming our truths after we die... Well if by truth you mean reality, then of course... But it doesn't mean he haven't lied.. He would be a bloody liar...

You keep describing people, but your OP is about god(s) or deity. The way you describe people, I have no idea who/what you're talking about, so I can't answer the OP. It seems you're trying to get answers about people, not god(s), and I don't 'know' those types of people, even though you keep saying they're' usual religious people' etc. or something.....are they? Why am I unfamiliar with them? Never known people like that, I'm thinking it's a cultural thing, not a religious thing.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
It doesn't particularly matter if God is a liar.. We are alive. Much of our lives contains truth, whereas at other times, not so much. The Laws of the Universe aren't failing, or changing. We can expect science to still be science tomorrow-- the birds fly, the fish swim, etc.. And for these reasons it doesn't matter if God lies, because we still have truths that we can rely on, day after day until we die. If God wants to lie after we're dead, it still wouldn't matter, because His lies would still become our truth.

It really depends. Some folks have given up a lot for their religions.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
You keep describing people, but your OP is about god(s) or deity. The way you describe people, I have no idea who/what you're talking about, so I can't answer the OP. It seems you're trying to get answers about people, not god(s), and I don't 'know' those types of people, even though you keep saying they're' usual religious people' etc. or something.....are they? Why am I unfamiliar with them? Never known people like that, I'm thinking it's a cultural thing, not a religious thing.

It's kind of both, as religion is a facet of culture. I think the discussion here is being hampered somewhat by what was an initial attempt to be theistically inclusive, when the question might carry better if it was targeted to specific forms of theism found in specific religions, because additional teachings of those specific religions are very much influencing the framing of the question.

I think what this topic is boiling down to is Pascal's Wager? Which is why it is not applying outside of classical monotheist religions that believe in a hell?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
It's kind of both, as religion is a facet of culture. I think the discussion here is being hampered somewhat by what was an initial attempt to be theistically inclusive, when the question might carry better if it was targeted to specific forms of theism found in specific religions, because additional teachings of those specific religions are very much influencing the framing of the question.

I think what this topic is boiling down to is Pascal's Wager? Which is why it is not applying outside of classical monotheist religions that believe in a hell?


Hmm no I disagree. I think the question is outside of religion. My 'morals' for instance, have nothing to do with my religion(-religion-), and I think that is more the norm than otherwise.
It is possible the OP is referring to very specific types of religion or churches, but then again, what is cultural and what is religious.
If the ACTUAL question is about hell, seems like many if not most Christians don't even believe in the 'classic hell', ever read those threads about hell?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Dude, you're calling him a "He" ... You're humanising him like all the religious people are...

Why does everyone call him a "He". Does he need male genitals to reproduce?

People call him a "He" because it was men who wrote about god.
And we all know how insignificant women were regarded back then.

So all you female religious types, please stop professing your will to be dominated.

Just because there is a reluctance to refer to the OT God as 'he' by some modern day jews, xians, and what-not, doesn't mean that according to Scripture it isn't a 'he'. It most definitely is, unless you call your mother "father".
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
It's kind of both, as religion is a facet of culture. I think the discussion here is being hampered somewhat by what was an initial attempt to be theistically inclusive,

But, that is not accurate, we have extremely strict religions all over the world, very intense rules, look at the eastern religions, those make our western religions look like a cake party.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Dude, you're calling him a "He" ... You're humanising him like all the religious people are...

Why does everyone call him a "He". Does he need male genitals to reproduce?

People call him a "He" because it was men who wrote about god.
And we all know how insignificant women were regarded back then.

So all you female religious types, please stop professing your will to be dominated.

What do you suggest we call Him? If we call Him "She", the same problem arises: We're humanizing Him/Her. I don't feel right calling God "It". ;)
 
Top