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Why Israel belongs to the Jews

Chanukah

New Member
The Land of Israel as we know it by its biblical name 'Knaan' was promised to the Great Patriarchs of the Hebrew People. First it was promised to Abraham in clear verses in the Torah in Genesis, secondly it was promised to Isaac his Son, and then to his Son Jacob who is called 'Israel' after he defeated the Angel as famously recorded in the Torah in Genesis. Thus the Land of Israel was called so after the greatest of the Patriarchs, Jacob aka, Israel. The Torah points out that the greatest of the three Patriarchs, was Jacob (Israel), because unlike Abraham who had a wicked son Ishmael and Isaac who had a wicked son Esau, all the Children of Jacob(Israel) were righteous. The Torah later records how Jacob (Israel) and his 12 Tribes (Sons) go down to Egypt and settle there and how they get enslaved by Pharaoh for more then 200 years. After the time that God had set for the duration of their exile comes to an end, the God of Israel performs earth shuttering and world shacking grand scale miracles to rescue them and free them and bring them back to their natural God Given Land, the Land of Israel.

In the great 10 Plagues the God of Israel shows Pharaoh and all other Egyptians and the entire world at large who is in charge and who is the True Owner and Ruler and King of the world. Without any shadow of any doubt, The clarity of God's existence becomes self evident when God performs all these great miracles that defy the laws of nature, and bring about the complete salvation of his people from the hands of a brutal dictator.

So at the end of this, Egypt is completely and utterly devastated and destroyed, and the Jewish people begin a remarkable journey of spirituality in the desert that prepares them to become the nation that will receive the oracles of the only true faith directly from God himself in a grand spectacle done in a manner of a National Revelation, where every single Jewish , men women and Child and also all the millions of non-Jews who joined them after they saw with their own eyes the grandeur of God's greatness, will together at once will witness how God reveals himself to them with great spectacles and sounds and thunders and will give them his written word , The Torah publicly without any intermediators.

Thus the Jewish people became a nation at that pivotal time when they received God's Torah and in unison the Jewish religion was born in that pivotal moment in human history. Unprecedented in all the religions of the world, Judaism stands out as the only religion that didn't begin from the preachings of one loner who claimed that God had spoke to him, like for example, Christianity and Islam solely base their foundations on one man's dreams. Judaism on the other hand, didn't completely believe in Moses' claim to be the prophet of god, until all of them together had experienced prophecy , only then when they saw with their own eyes and heard with their own ears God's glorious presence when he revealed himself to them and said in the Ten Commandments : " I am Hashem your Lord, that took you out from the land of Egypt from the house of slaves, Do not have other gods before me" only then they believed Moses' status as a True Prophet sent by God.

So it is written in the Torah with extreme accuracy and crystal clarity that the God of Israel had chosen the Jewish people and all converts to Judaism who joined the Jews all throughout the years as his Chosen People and a Holy nation and a Kingdom of Priests. To them the God of Israel had performed all the great miracles that are recorded in the Torah, to them and not to Muslims, not to Christians, and not to hindus, and not to anyone else for that matter.

And he decided to dwell inside them by instructing them to build for his name a Temple where he will dwell with them, in the holy of holies. With them he had made an Ever lasting covenant in mount Sinai, never to be broken, or changed under any circumstances, no matter what will happen this covenant which god had swore by his name will exist forever, and he will never change them with another people as god had said in the Torah clearly in the verse Numbers 23:19 : "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?".

God himself tells us in the Torah that he is not a Man, for a man can change his mind, but god doesn't change his mind, therefore when he chose the Jewish People and made a covenant with them, it is an ever lasting one, not to bound to change under any circumstances. He also says in the Ten commandments never to attribute any kind of physicality to him, for He is all spiritual and has absolutely no physicality what so ever :" Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth". "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them".

Clearly when Christians claim that Jesus is god they are in fact according to the standards of the Torah and of god himself are in fact worshipping idols for god had specifically said with the clearest possible words and terms to not do that, not to attribute any kind of physicality to him, for doing so is against the will of The God of Israel.

The Muslims on the other came up with this claim that the person who was taken to be offered as a sacrifice by Abraham was not Isaac as the Torah says and as God himself says, they believe that it was Ishmael. There are major critical problems with this Muslim invention:

God himself tells Abraham to send Ishmael and his mother away, for only Isaac will be the person that will be the line to continue the chain in bringing about the Nation of Israel to be the people to receive the Torah. The God of Israel saves the Jewish people, the children of Isaac, by performing for them amazing ground shaking miracles and bringing them to the foot of Mount Sinai to give them his most precious thing, his Torah. In fact Ishmael never is mentioned after his story in Genesis, and from Isaac the history of the Jewish people and how they were saved and all that they had went through is recorded. They are the Heroes of the Torah, and Ishmael is never mentioned anymore, for he was sent away. And the Children of Israel were saved from Pharaoh because their forefather Abraham passed the test and was willing to bring his beloved son Isaac (the father of Jacob) as a sacrifice before God. So there is absolutely no logical or rational justification to this Muslim invention that defies all common sense and wisdom, and was just invented by the first Muslims to somehow try to steal the Title of Israel from the Jewish people, and was only believed by the pagans of that time who knew no better, and had no tools to counter the first missionaries of Islam, who really didn't give any choice to anyone just like the first Christians, it was either accept their 'claims' or be killed, so much for free will or free choice.

So the Christians have a twisted understanding of what God is and what God is not, for anyone who has a true understanding of God will never ever blame another one that he killed god, because god is above all the physical things that govern physical things, like death. God can't be killed, and if he can then he can't be god, and one of the greatest evidence that Jesus was not god, is that he was killed, and bled to death. That's without even saying that he was a mortal, flesh and blood, and physical, born of a man and a woman. The mind can't bare, and the wisdom can't accept that the God of the universe who created heaven and earth and everything in between will be a product of a flesh and blood creature and travel through her worldly body and go through the dirt and stink that all kids have to go through. This is nothing but pure pagan belief, not so much different then all the other men made religions of the world who never went through the 'Truth Detector' of Judaism's 'National Revelation' where the God of the Universe himself reveals himself to his followers and no doubts can exist after that at all.

Said all of this since the Jewish people are the descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob the people that god had swore to them that he will give this land to them, therefore from this power and only from this ultimate power which is the will of god in this world, the land of Israel belongs to them.
For God had created heaven and earth and he can give and take from anyone to anyone as he sees fit for he is the master of all, and no one can tell him what to do. The god of Israel chose the Jewish people from all the peoples of the world and he made an everlasting covenant with them and he gave them the land of their forefathers forever and ever, and under his instruction they built there two great temples for his Name, and had great Kingdoms and civilizations that gave to humanity and influenced humanity like no other people in history.

Regards,
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'll believe that it belongs solely to the Jews when I see the title work with God's notarized signature upon it.
Til then, it's best to share & respect everyone's property rights....no matter how difficult that may be.
 

Chanukah

New Member
I'll believe that it belongs solely to the Jews when I see the title work with God's notarized signature upon it.
Til then, it's best to share & respect everyone's property rights....no matter how difficult that may be.

This is a religious forum and we are discussing the religious point of view.
What are the religious grounds to the claim that the Land of Israel was given to the Jews? that's the discussion. now if you want to discuss things in modern 21 century legal code, then that's a different topic all together, and in fact can be asked on every nation, where is the signature of god that france belongs to the french? and so on...
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This is a religious forum and we are discussing the religious point of view.
What are the religious grounds to the claim that the Land of Israel was given to the Jews? that's the discussion. now if you want to discuss things in modern 21 century legal code, then that's a different topic all together, and in fact can be asked on every nation, where is the signature of god that france belongs to the french? and so on...
You did pick the "Religious Debates" section, which differs from a DIR in that it opens discussion up to secular aspects.

Btw, welcome aboard!
 

Shermana

Heretic
I'll believe that it belongs solely to the Jews when I see the title work with God's notarized signature upon it.
Til then, it's best to share & respect everyone's property rights....no matter how difficult that may be.

Define "property rights".
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Said all of this since the Jewish people are the descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob the people that god had swore to them that he will give this land to them, therefore from this power and only from this ultimate power which is the will of god in this world, the land of Israel belongs to them.
For God had created heaven and earth and he can give and take from anyone to anyone as he sees fit for he is the master of all, and no one can tell him what to do.
So then Israel doesn't belong to the Jewish people; it belongs to God... no?

The god of Israel chose the Jewish people from all the peoples of the world and he made an everlasting covenant with them and he gave them the land of their forefathers forever and ever, and under his instruction they built there two great temples for his Name, and had great Kingdoms and civilizations that gave to humanity and influenced humanity like no other people in history.
Can you explain what you think this covenant actually entails?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never been under the impression that it was "the Jewish people get Israel forever with no conditions"; most interpretations I've seen have been more along the lines of "God will protect the Jewish people if they keep his commandments." I'm not sure how this would imply this irrevocable right to Israel that you're suggesting. Every version that I've heard has included a quid-pro-quo: if the Jewish people don't keep up their end of the bargain, then God's not obligated to hold up his end.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Ah, well you should reconsider your opinions on the issue.
Already considered, which is why I won't derail the thread with the contentious complexities of real estate ownership in that environ.
I was a broker....you don't want to get me started.
And baiting won't work.
 

Godwilling

Organic, kinetic learner


So at the end of this, Egypt is completely and utterly devastated and destroyed, and the Jewish people begin a remarkable journey of spirituality in the desert that prepares them to become the nation that will receive the oracles of the only true faith directly from God himself in a grand spectacle done in a manner of a National Revelation, where every single Jewish , men women and Child and also all the millions of non-Jews who joined them after they saw with their own eyes the grandeur of God's greatness, will together at once will witness how God reveals himself to them with great spectacles and sounds and thunders and will give them his written word , The Torah publicly without any intermediators.


Are you claiming that God is as racist as you appear to be?

Unprecedented in all the religions of the world, Judaism stands out as the only religion that didn't begin from the preachings of one loner who claimed that God had spoke to him, like for example, Christianity and Islam solely base their foundations on one man's dreams.
More ethnocentric theo-centric propaganda?

So it is written in the Torah with extreme accuracy and crystal clarity that the God of Israel had chosen the Jewish people and all converts to Judaism who joined the Jews all throughout the years as his Chosen People and a Holy nation and a Kingdom of Priests. To them the God of Israel had performed all the great miracles that are recorded in the Torah, to them and not to Muslims, not to Christians, and not to hindus, and not to anyone else for that matter.
I think I am starting to understand your point: I think that you are saying that Judaism is the religion of God and that other religions are false religions. Am I on the right track now?



Clearly when Christians claim that Jesus is god they are in fact according to the standards of the Torah and of god himself are in fact worshipping idols for god had specifically said with the clearest possible words and terms to not do that, not to attribute any kind of physicality to him, for doing so is against the will of The God of Israel.
I think you made this one clear earlier, "Jews good...all others not so good"

The Muslims on the other came up with this claim that the person who was taken to be offered as a sacrifice by Abraham was not Isaac as the Torah says and as God himself says, they believe that it was Ishmael. There are major critical problems with this Muslim invention.
I think I get this one...Muslims' beliefs mere inventions...Judaism straight from the horse's mouth

God himself tells Abraham to send Ishmael and his mother away, for only Isaac will be the person that will be the line to continue the chain in bringing about the Nation of Israel to be the people to receive the Torah. The God of Israel saves the Jewish people, the children of Isaac, by performing for them amazing ground shaking miracles and bringing them to the foot of Mount Sinai to give them his most precious thing, his Torah. In fact Ishmael never is mentioned after his story in Genesis, and from Isaac the history of the Jewish people and how they were saved and all that they had went through is recorded. They are the Heroes of the Torah, and Ishmael is never mentioned anymore, for he was sent away. And the Children of Israel were saved from Pharaoh because their forefather Abraham passed the test and was willing to bring his beloved son Isaac (the father of Jacob) as a sacrifice before God. So there is absolutely no logical or rational justification to this Muslim invention that defies all common sense and wisdom, and was just invented by the first Muslims to somehow try to steal the Title of Israel from the Jewish people, and was only believed by the pagans of that time who knew no better, and had no tools to counter the first missionaries of Islam, who really didn't give any choice to anyone just like the first Christians, it was either accept their 'claims' or be killed, so much for free will or free choice.

So the Christians have a twisted understanding of what God is and what God is not, for anyone who has a true understanding of God will never ever blame another one that he killed god, because god is above all the physical things that govern physical things, like death. God can't be killed, and if he can then he can't be god, and one of the greatest evidence that Jesus was not god, is that he was killed, and bled to death. That's without even saying that he was a mortal, flesh and blood, and physical, born of a man and a woman. The mind can't bare, and the wisdom can't accept that the God of the universe who created heaven and earth and everything in between will be a product of a flesh and blood creature and travel through her worldly body and go through the dirt and stink that all kids have to go through. This is nothing but pure pagan belief, not so much different then all the other men made religions of the world who never went through the 'Truth Detector' of Judaism's 'National Revelation' where the God of the Universe himself reveals himself to his followers and no doubts can exist after that at all.

Said all of this since the Jewish people are the descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob the people that god had swore to them that he will give this land to them, therefore from this power and only from this ultimate power which is the will of god in this world, the land of Israel belongs to them.
For God had created heaven and earth and he can give and take from anyone to anyone as he sees fit for he is the master of all, and no one can tell him what to do. The god of Israel chose the Jewish people from all the peoples of the world and he made an everlasting covenant with them and he gave them the land of their forefathers forever and ever, and under his instruction they built there two great temples for his Name, and had great Kingdoms and civilizations that gave to humanity and influenced humanity like no other people in history.

Regards,
You are a gem. What a great example of religious tolerance, inclusiveness, and tolerance. The sweetheart that came up with the story of God telling Abraham to kill Isaiah would be proud of you!! Way to go champ!
 
First of all, welcome to RF, Chanukah.

Secondly the evidence is overwhelming from the Bible that Israel belongs to the Jews, the chosen people of G-d. xtians who don't support Israel, or for some reason think that Israel was transferred to "them" because of Jesus (a man who may or may not have even existed) need to read their bible more carefully instead of believing in ugly replacement theology. And same for muslims, since the quran actually says that Israel belongs to the Jewish people.

From a secular point of view, Israel belongs to the Jews. The facts are that the Jews have occupied the land referred to as either Palestine or Israel for over 3 thousand years of recorded history. Sure they have been invaded and ruled over by many different people and empires. In 625 BC, they were invaded and ruled by the Babylonians, then the Medo-Persians in 558 BC, followed by the Greco-Macedonians in 333 BC, the Roman's in 31 BC and in 638 AD they were invaded and occupied by the muslims. The Jews did not invade Israel or Palestine, as their forefathers have lived there continuously from time immemorial. Beginning in 1890 AD, many Jews began returning to Israel, based on a promise that they could have their own home land, but they never displaced anyone.
 

Shermana

Heretic
So then Israel doesn't belong to the Jewish people; it belongs to God... no?
I would very much agree even by scriptural standards, but the idea however is that we believe that even though the land is owned by Him, he has given usage of it for settlement and political governance (i.e. tax collection) to Isaac's lineage, with Judah, whom the "Scepter shall not depart" from. Thus, the Jews are the Divinely allotted guardians of the Land, by meaning of the term "owner".

Likewise, one may "own" land and charge rent for it, but it's really the government's property, they can eminent domain it anytime they want for any reason.


Can you explain what you think this covenant actually entails?
The idea of the covenant is that as long as the Jews behave. However, the prophecies also state that the tribes will return in the latter days, and will never lose a single war again and will eventually make all the nations come to realize that Israel's god is THE god. Even the Egyptians, all of the Muslim Brotherhood and Coptic Christians, who do not go up to celebrate Succoth in the end days, will have no rain on their crops in the latter days. So the "Covenant" entails that the ISraelites will be restored to the land in the end day like with the end of the Babylonian Exile, this time a 1900 year instead of 70 year exile.

Now if the Jews misbehave and don't obey Torah, they may still be punished. The prophecies also say that even in the end days after all this happened, Jerusalem will be destroyed and the women raped and the people pillaged, and even Judah will be against the city, will but the enemy will be destroyed in the end. The people of Jerusalem today are not all necessarily innocent do-gooders...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never been under the impression that it was "the Jewish people get Israel forever with no conditions";
The idea is that they get title to it, they may be temporarily removed, even for 1900 years but they are entitled to it when the exiles are done.

most interpretations I've seen have been more along the lines of "God will protect the Jewish people if they keep his commandments."
Apparently, they've been obeying his commandments since before 1948 since they haven't lost a single war. However, I suspect this may have more to do with fulfillment of prophecy to restore the Holy Land and pave the way for the Future Holy Kingdom of Israel regardless of how good or naughty the last generation of Israelites had been. But I do believe that even today in the land, the fates of all individuals involved have much to do with their righteousness.
I'm not sure how this would imply this irrevocable right to Israel that you're suggesting
.

The scripture says that even if the Israelites are removed from the land, they will always given it back eventually. Even if it takes 1900 years. And also, there was never a time there were NO Jews in the Holy Land, the Israelite communities in Jerusalem go back to the B.C. days, just like pre-1948 Iraq.

Every version that I've heard has included a quid-pro-quo: if the Jewish people don't keep up their end of the bargain, then God's not obligated to hold up his end.
Leviticus clearly states that every exile will end with being returned, permanently, every time. And even then, it's not really the Jews as a whole as it is the Bulk of the Jews, it's a matter of who is in political control of the Land of Israel, but the Jews never left altogether by any evidence. Even if a few hundred stay, that's still Jewish presence.
 

Seymour

New Member
First of all, welcome to RF, Chanukah.

Secondly the evidence is overwhelming from the Bible that Israel belongs to the Jews, the chosen people of G-d. xtians who don't support Israel, or for some reason think that Israel was transferred to "them" because of Jesus (a man who may or may not have even existed) need to read their bible more carefully instead of believing in ugly replacement theology. And same for muslims, since the quran actually says that Israel belongs to the Jewish people.

For a Christian, even a secular one, you sure do spend quite a bit of time criticizing Christianity and defending other religions. You even defended Dan Savage calling the Bible "BS" in another thread. Seems like an interesting double standard.
 

Chanukah

New Member
So then Israel doesn't belong to the Jewish people; it belongs to God... no?


Can you explain what you think this covenant actually entails?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never been under the impression that it was "the Jewish people get Israel forever with no conditions"; most interpretations I've seen have been more along the lines of "God will protect the Jewish people if they keep his commandments." I'm not sure how this would imply this irrevocable right to Israel that you're suggesting. Every version that I've heard has included a quid-pro-quo: if the Jewish people don't keep up their end of the bargain, then God's not obligated to hold up his end.

The Land belongs to God , all land belongs to God, all the universe belongs to God, and he had given it to the Jewish people, his Chosen Children as he swore to do so to their forefathers, Abraham Isaac and Jacob and as he actually fulfilled and gave this land to them as is recorded in the Torah, that is the point.

The covenant that God had made with the Jewish people is everlasting, and it means that he will never change them with another people, they will always be his chosen. But there is a condition with owning the land, it is dependent on Jewish adherence to the laws of the Torah, if the Jews will listen to God's commandments they will live in peace and prosperity in their Land, if not then they will be punished, but only temporarily. Just like a son who has angered his father, and the father had to teach him a lesson and kicked him out of the land, the father never intended to keep his son away forever, but to teach him a lesson so he will repent and come back to sit at his table. The entire King Solomon's book in the Tenach deals with this, love between a Man and a Woman who was not fateful and was sent away, who is analogous to God and the Nation of Israel. The Love has never ended between the man and and his beloved wife, she is still his wife, and he had never completely divorced her, and King Solomon describes in song their great affection and how they both try to bring about their return to each other. Also there are clear verses in the Torah that say that any punishment upon the Jews if they will not be 100 percent faithful to the word of God, will be only temporary as it says in Deuteronomy chapter 30 verses 1 through 8 :

"1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither HaShem thy G-d hath driven thee,

2 and shalt return unto HaShem thy G-d, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul;

3 that then HaShem thy G-d will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither HaShem thy G-d hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will HaShem thy G-d gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee.

5 And HaShem thy G-d will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers
.


6 And HaShem thy G-d will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love HaShem thy G-d with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

7 And HaShem thy G-d will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, that persecuted thee.

8 And thou shalt return and hearken to the voice of HaShem, and do all His commandments which I command thee this day.

So there is a clear warning that the God of Israel will enforce the covenant that the Jews made with him if they will not listen to his commandments they will be sent away in exile to atone for their sins but will be returned from exile back to the land of their forefathers for the punishment is not eternal but temporary as a loving father who punishes his son for his own good but never forever as the verses 2 and 3 so clearly say that god will bring the Jews back to their land. And all throughout the great exile of 2000 years since Rome had destroyed Jerusalem and sent its Jewish inhabitants into exile, the land was laid desolate and no empire no matter how powerful ever was able to rule it. But when the God of Israel had decided to bring his children back to their land, as we have all witnessed in our days, the land of Israel began to blossom and flourish as the land responded to the true owners and sons who have returned after such a long exile as God said in the Torah : "If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will HaShem thy G-d gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee."
 
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Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim

The Muslims on the other came up with this claim that the person who was taken to be offered as a sacrifice by Abraham was not Isaac as the Torah says and as God himself says, they believe that it was Ishmael. There are major critical problems with this Muslim invention:

God himself tells Abraham to send Ishmael and his mother away, for only Isaac will be the person that will be the line to continue the chain in bringing about the Nation of Israel to be the people to receive the Torah. The God of Israel saves the Jewish people, the children of Isaac, by performing for them amazing ground shaking miracles and bringing them to the foot of Mount Sinai to give them his most precious thing, his Torah. In fact Ishmael never is mentioned after his story in Genesis, and from Isaac the history of the Jewish people and how they were saved and all that they had went through is recorded. They are the Heroes of the Torah, and Ishmael is never mentioned anymore, for he was sent away. And the Children of Israel were saved from Pharaoh because their forefather Abraham passed the test and was willing to bring his beloved son Isaac (the father of Jacob) as a sacrifice before God. So there is absolutely no logical or rational justification to this Muslim invention that defies all common sense and wisdom, and was just invented by the first Muslims to somehow try to steal the Title of Israel from the Jewish people, and was only believed by the pagans of that time who knew no better, and had no tools to counter the first missionaries of Islam, who really didn't give any choice to anyone just like the first Christians, it was either accept their 'claims' or be killed, so much for free will or free choice.

"`Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac and get there into the land of Moriah, and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I tell thee of" (Gen. 22:2).

There are two sons spoken about in the Torah. Never has it ever stated that one is not a son. So let us now see who is this son who was the only son at that time of sacrifice. Was it Ishmael or Isaac.

"Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael." (Gen. 16:16)
"Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him." (Gen. 21:5)

We have clearly established that Ishmael is older the Isaac.
By reason and logic the only time that Prophet Abraham could have had only one son would have had to be when Ishmael was born but Isaac was yet to be born.

So it appears someone changed Gen. 22:2 to say Isaac instead of Ishmael for some desire they had. But being a human being did not realize the serious contradiction they created. Interesting. Present your view on how Isaac was the only son as Ishmael was rejected as I am already prepared for that, please do a good job make sure your statement is supported by something and not conjecture.

Now the next problem. Christians and Muslims spread faith by the sword.

I think the same can be extended to Jews, so it is rather foolish to make this statement. I have no idea how anyone can reason that people accepted a Religion by force given option of life or death. When we study history we see that these people who took up belief made tremendous sacrifices but never left their faith. How foolish is this, let us assume that a group of lesser people start to spread their faith by sword. Now 10 people try enforcing it on 1000 people. How does this work? Once these 10 people move onto the next group the prior 1000 would recant as they have no reason to believe any more. On the contrary we see that 1010 people now go the spread the faith, so if it was the sword then how is it possible the same 1000 who never accepted faith at their heart went ahead to enforce what was enforced on them. They could rather take the sword and kill the 10 and head back home. Accepting a new faith and becoming a minority is of no benefit, so it is foolish to assume that so many people left their faith to become minority for anything other then sincere love which brought in them a willingness to lose rights and risk their lives in exchange. Absolutely foolish. The truth of all Prophets and their followers was that they prospered against all odds, they did not spread by sword. This is absolutely foolish propaganda.

When you come on RF don't assume everyone will buy your opinion without critiquing it, this is not like a speech you are giving to your child. Even Muslims and Christians are guilty of this behaviour. I am not means of disrespect, I hope you can study this further and critique your own beliefs. Without such we can blindly go around saying what we were fed and take offence of other peoples views.
 

Shermana

Heretic
So it appears someone changed Gen. 22:2 to say Isaac instead of Ishmael for some desire they had.

I don't understand why it would appear anyone changed anything, the very context of having a son from a slave girl would be understood to mean it's not the legitimate heir.
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
I don't understand why it would appear anyone changed anything, the very context of having a son from a slave girl would be understood to mean it's not the legitimate heir.

Yet he is called a son over and over again? Please expand your argument from verses of the Torah. I have to see where this conclusion comes from.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Yet he is called a son over and over again? Please expand your argument from verses of the Torah. I have to see where this conclusion comes from.

Do you think Genesis 25:6 is forged too?

New International Version (©1984)
But while he was still living, he gave gifts to the sons of his concubines and sent them away from his son Isaac to the land of the east.
Apparently the sons of his concubines don't get the land.

It doesn't matter if Ishmael is called a son 'over and over again".

Besides, if the REST of the Scripture clearly refers to Israel, then you'd have to have argument that every reference to Israel was really meant to be Isaac in every other book.
 
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Chanukah

New Member
"`Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac and get there into the land of Moriah, and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I tell thee of" (Gen. 22:2).

There are two sons spoken about in the Torah. Never has it ever stated that one is not a son. So let us now see who is this son who was the only son at that time of sacrifice. Was it Ishmael or Isaac.

"Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael." (Gen. 16:16)
"Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him." (Gen. 21:5)

We have clearly established that Ishmael is older the Isaac.
By reason and logic the only time that Prophet Abraham could have had only one son would have had to be when Ishmael was born but Isaac was yet to be born.

So it appears someone changed Gen. 22:2 to say Isaac instead of Ishmael for some desire they had. But being a human being did not realize the serious contradiction they created. Interesting. Present your view on how Isaac was the only son as Ishmael was rejected as I am already prepared for that, please do a good job make sure your statement is supported by something and not conjecture.

Now the next problem. Christians and Muslims spread faith by the sword.

I think the same can be extended to Jews, so it is rather foolish to make this statement. I have no idea how anyone can reason that people accepted a Religion by force given option of life or death. When we study history we see that these people who took up belief made tremendous sacrifices but never left their faith. How foolish is this, let us assume that a group of lesser people start to spread their faith by sword. Now 10 people try enforcing it on 1000 people. How does this work? Once these 10 people move onto the next group the prior 1000 would recant as they have no reason to believe any more. On the contrary we see that 1010 people now go the spread the faith, so if it was the sword then how is it possible the same 1000 who never accepted faith at their heart went ahead to enforce what was enforced on them. They could rather take the sword and kill the 10 and head back home. Accepting a new faith and becoming a minority is of no benefit, so it is foolish to assume that so many people left their faith to become minority for anything other then sincere love which brought in them a willingness to lose rights and risk their lives in exchange. Absolutely foolish. The truth of all Prophets and their followers was that they prospered against all odds, they did not spread by sword. This is absolutely foolish propaganda.

When you come on RF don't assume everyone will buy your opinion without critiquing it, this is not like a speech you are giving to your child. Even Muslims and Christians are guilty of this behaviour. I am not means of disrespect, I hope you can study this further and critique your own beliefs. Without such we can blindly go around saying what we were fed and take offence of other peoples views.

What a complete utter nonsense but let me tell you this.

You must learn to read the Torah in is original Holy Tongue in order to truly understand what it says there for the English translation or any other translation is extremely poor and has no real value when it comes to understanding the simple verses of the Torah and naturally even more so its deeper layers.

If you read the Torah in Hebrew it says that God specifically asks Abraham to bring his Son Isaac, the word Ishmael is not even mentioned in the verse for crying out loud! it says 'Even Isaac" which is a poor english translation because when it says 'Even' people think that Isaac was only a minor marginal addition and that's where the confusion in the minds of the gentiles takes place. The word 'Even' doesn't appear in the original Hebrew Text, it simple says 'Eth Isaac' the word 'eth' in Hebrew doesn't mean 'even' just like when someone wants to say 'Taviee Eth Elu' which means 'bring these', the 'Eth' means to 'add' something that is marginal to the Hero of the spoken character. So when it says 'Eth Isaac' it means Isaac and something else in addition to him, namely Ishmael who Abraham used as a servant to carrie the woods and the donkey.
There is a general famous rule in the Torah as the Talmud says that every 'eth' in the Torah comes to add something that is not explicitly mentioned in the verse for example it says to honor the father and mother in the Ten commandments :"Cabed Eth avicha ve Eth emecha", what the torah wants to add here? it wants to add and teach us that you should also honor your grandparents and your older siblings.

So by applying this rule here the verse reads like this :Bring your son Isaac 'eth' and in addition something else, we can say may be namely your other son as a servant to carrie the woods or the donkey, or any other things that you might need to use for the travel to the mountain. But the main emphasis is on Isaac, this is the clear and correct reading of the Hebrew text.

A question must be asked :

Why make it so long, why God didn't tell Abraham simply 'bring your son Isaac'? why did he say , your only son? whom thou love? and only in the end he made it crystal clear that he wanted to bring Isaac?

The Sages of Israel explain in the Talmud and in the Midrash that God didn't tell him rite away because he didn't want Abraham to be shocked and pained , but he made it gradually, so Abraham wouldn't be terrified, to get used to the situation. So God tells him "Your only son", Abraham answered :"Each is unique to me, Isaac and also Ishmael, he is my only son from Sarah and he is my only son from Hagar. Then God made it more specific and said :"Whom you love", Abraham replied that he loves Isaac and he loves Ishmael, then God made it as clear as possible and said "Isaac", so Abraham would know for sure who God wants him to bring as sacrifice. Without this Talmudic and Midrashic explanation there is no rational or logic in going through this long discussion between God and Abraham especially when we know that the Torah is written in very short chapters and each and every letter is measured to the most extreme, and therefore everything is there to teach us lessons and not to tell us 'stories'.

Therefore the muslim invention holds no ground and is unfounded and unattainable.

I'll respond to your other things later on its too late now...
 
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