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Why Israel belongs to the Jews

Chanukah

New Member
Trust me it's really pointless to debate someone who doesn't want to know the truth and is in fact only here to criticize with all the wrong intentions, Ill rather talk to those who want to learn and in fact have the basic wisdom to understand that this amazing and astonishing universe was created by God and didn't explode out of nowhere for no purpose or aim.

If they can't accept this most basic requirement of intelligence that God created this universe, then they lack the wisdom and intellect to engage in any real constructive dialogue of any sort.
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
Chanukah said:
Trust me it's really pointless to debate someone who doesn't want to know the truth and is in fact only here to criticize with all the wrong intentions, Ill rather talk to those who want to learn and in fact have the basic wisdom to understand that this amazing and astonishing universe was created by God and didn't explode out of nowhere for no purpose or aim.

If they can't accept this most basic requirement of intelligence that God created this universe, then they lack the wisdom and intellect to engage in any real constructive dialogue of any sort.


Go on then, try me: explain to me this great majesty that is your God and how the Universe was created, and so-on etc...... I will listen.
 

beerisit

Active Member
I don't answer to atheists because anyone who doesn't have the basic intellect to understand that this universe is not a product of any 'accidents' and in fact must have been created by God, is below my level and I don't give them the time and day.

Now if you asked me, 'You know I believe in God and believe that Abraham the father of the Jewish people existed but I'm very ignorant on the details and don't know how to relate to someone that lived thousands of years ago, and therefore can you please explain to me who Abraham was and what he did and how his life effects our lives"? Now that's worth a response, because you're not talking nonsense and are truly interested to learn and know and grow intellectually, but when you come from the standpoint of 'Abraham never existed' even though there is an entire nation who can trace its history to their famous forefather, then this doesn't deserve any response, because its a question asked by a clown who lacks basic intellect, and as I said in a different thread that I don't waste my time talking to clowns, I'll rather use my energy explaining things to those who really want to learn and know.


King Solomon said "The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God". If you don't have the fear of god you still didn't even enter the gates of wisdom, so what's the point talking with you at all.
Oh no! What am I to do, I don't soil my kimbies at the thought of a maniacal god, I will never be saved. But getting back on topic. I asked you for some proof that just ONE human on this planet is descended from this Abraham character, written about in a stone age book. Well I'll give you bronze, reluctantly.
Just BTW, what did moses write on?
 

beerisit

Active Member
Trust me it's really pointless to debate someone who doesn't want to know the truth and is in fact only here to criticize with all the wrong intentions, Ill rather talk to those who want to learn and in fact have the basic wisdom to understand that this amazing and astonishing universe was created by God and didn't explode out of nowhere for no purpose or aim.

If they can't accept this most basic requirement of intelligence that God created this universe, then they lack the wisdom and intellect to engage in any real constructive dialogue of any sort.
Ahh so listen up folks Chanukah has found the TRUTH. The only human in existence to have done so, apparently. Now that your search is over what do you do all day?
 

A Troubled Man

Active Member
So it is written in the Torah with extreme accuracy and crystal clarity that the God of Israel had chosen the Jewish people and all converts to Judaism who joined the Jews all throughout the years as his Chosen People ...

Said all of this since the Jewish people are the descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob the people that god had swore to them that he will give this land to them, therefore from this power and only from this ultimate power which is the will of god in this world, the land of Israel belongs to them.

The god of Israel chose the Jewish people from all the peoples of the world ...

I see evidence of a superiority complex and a penchant to divide people, but not much else.
 

beerisit

Active Member
I'm sorry, maybe too many beers, but I can't let this go.
Chanukah said:
If they can't accept this most basic requirement of intelligence that God created this universe, then they lack the wisdom and intellect to engage in any real constructive dialogue of any sort.
The absolute arrogance of "mankind" to believe that a being so powerful that it created time, space, matter and an entire universe over 13.5 billion years just so that "mankind" could demonstrate to it that they worshiped it in the correct manner for 80yrs or less, is quite simply mind boggling.
I mean how stupid do you think this being is?
How about if there is a being who created everything you consider that it didn't do it all for YOU?
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
After being practically inactive for..what like 2 weeks? If that! There seems to have been an influx of overly eager orthodox :areyoucra
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
I don't answer to atheists because anyone who doesn't have the basic intellect to understand that this universe is not a product of any 'accidents' and in fact must have been created by God, is below my level and I don't give them the time and day.

Now if you asked me, 'You know I believe in God and believe that Abraham the father of the Jewish people existed but I'm very ignorant on the details and don't know how to relate to someone that lived thousands of years ago, and therefore can you please explain to me who Abraham was and what he did and how his life effects our lives"? Now that's worth a response, because you're not talking nonsense and are truly interested to learn and know and grow intellectually, but when you come from the standpoint of 'Abraham never existed' even though there is an entire nation who can trace its history to their famous forefather, then this doesn't deserve any response, because its a question asked by a clown who lacks basic intellect, and as I said in a different thread that I don't waste my time talking to clowns, I'll rather use my energy explaining things to those who really want to learn and know.


King Solomon said "The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God". If you don't have the fear of god you still didn't even enter the gates of wisdom, so what's the point talking with you at all.
Would someone religious who do not believe in your religion and do not believe in the God you speak of, or Abraham, be bellow your level as well?
 

Rational_Mind

Ahmadi Muslim
The word for "wife" is simply "Woman" like in German, Frau. This is not very politically correct in English. Thus, the word "Wife" can also apply to a concubine, as it is still one's woman.

So the question is, were the "Concubines" the "wives" or were they other unmentioned women? The commentaries differ.

Genesis 25:6 Bible Commentary

Yes, a son of a slave girl is still a "son" as much as a "son of a wife" is still a son. But if this was the event that they were equal in share, a King who got a prostitute knocked up would have to make him prince over the Queen's firstborn.

Completely invalid argument. Please support your argument from clear verses. It is very clearly that Ishmael is a "son" and and Hagar a "wife". The same way you say "son" not really a "son" and "wife" not really a "wife" I can say the logical thing, your wrong. Show me how she is a concubine and how a child loses rights. Your statement need support like I supported my logical argument with the age and clear words calling him a son over and over again.

Are you are suggesting god forbid that Abraham would have illicit relations then take away the rights of the child? There is no equivalence or justification you are trying to form. Anyone can give their opinion, what is opinion without a basis. Show me the basis. If you cannot provide a clear answer from the Torah then you have to accept that there is a clear contradiction that needs to be fixed.

Also note that Ishmael is also called Abraham's son not just Hagar's:
And Abraham took Ishmael his son and all who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among [those] of Abraham’s house, and circumcised [them] the very same day, as God had said to him.
And Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised.
And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised.
(Gen 17:23-25)

Before I close this last minute deal I have one last offer!

“And Abraham said, ‘Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.’ And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, ‘This shall not be thine heir, but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.’ And he brought him forth abroad, and said, ‘Look now towards heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them,’ and he said unto him, ‘So shall thy seed be.’ ” (Genesis 15:3-5)

Abraham is praying for a child and said "one born in my house is mine heir", and guess what standard God set, "but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir."

Moreover the prayers are answered. Just as it says "if thou be able to number them" and "that it shall not be numbered for multitude"! How can you say that this prayer and response is not directly related. Especially the prayer was to have a son when he had NONE, guess who was the first child called a "son" who became "thy seed" after Abraham said "Behold, to me thou hast given no seed".

“And the Angel of Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.” (Gen. 16:10-11)

Every single standard by which you reject him is how everyone can call Sarah a concubine. The reason is this standard has no basis.
 

predavlad

Skeptic
I don't answer to atheists because anyone who doesn't have the basic intellect to understand that this universe is not a product of any 'accidents' and in fact must have been created by God, is below my level and I don't give them the time and day.

Now if you asked me, 'You know I believe in God and believe that Abraham the father of the Jewish people existed but I'm very ignorant on the details and don't know how to relate to someone that lived thousands of years ago, and therefore can you please explain to me who Abraham was and what he did and how his life effects our lives"? Now that's worth a response, because you're not talking nonsense and are truly interested to learn and know and grow intellectually, but when you come from the standpoint of 'Abraham never existed' even though there is an entire nation who can trace its history to their famous forefather, then this doesn't deserve any response, because its a question asked by a clown who lacks basic intellect, and as I said in a different thread that I don't waste my time talking to clowns, I'll rather use my energy explaining things to those who really want to learn and know.

King Solomon said "The beginning of wisdom is the fear of God". If you don't have the fear of god you still didn't even enter the gates of wisdom, so what's the point talking with you at all.

So you're coming to a forum that is based on religious(/non-religious) tolerance to express your intolerance?

Just a quick question - do you consider the members of the National Academy of Science unwise? You know, the people who are responsible for all the technology you happily use today, and 94% of them are non-religious?
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
I find it hard to accept that religious jews cannot say that the land belongs to both Palestinians and jews or at-least say it belongs to god i really find it harder to accept this Zionist kind of thinking that ''Jews'' are superior, its like challenging god in a way.

I find my comfort by some Orthodox Jews saying that the country is created for both, if its ''holy-land'' then surely the Jews of the modern time living there don't deserve living there.

And i say this because of the ''Concentration camps'' called Gaza and West-Bank some people are really treated inhuman since there has be no change in 60years i will continue to have a biased view on it, i am pretty sure seeing Jews die is horrible for a Jew so imagine me feeling the same for the Palestinians.
 
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JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
I find it hard to accept that religious jews cannot say that the land belongs to both Palestinians and jews or at-least say it belongs to god i really find it harder to accept this Zionist kind of thinking that ''Jews'' are superior, its like challenging god in a way.

I find my comfort by some Orthodox Jews saying that the country is created for both, if its ''holy-land'' then surely the Jews of the modern time living there don't deserve living there.

And i say this because of the ''Concentration camps'' called Gaza and West-Bank some people are really treated inhuman since there has be no change in 60years i will continue to have a biased view on it, i am pretty sure seeing Jews die is horrible for a Jew so imagine me feeling the same for the Palestinians.

Don't try and ignore the plurality of the Jewish people
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
And i say this because of the ''Concentration camps'' called Gaza and West-Bank some people are really treated inhuman since there has be no change in 60years i will continue to have a biased view on it, i am pretty sure seeing Jews die is horrible for a Jew so imagine me feeling the same for the Palestinians.

For concentration camps the people living there sure breed like rabbits unlike in historical concentration camps. Also the government of gaza has full authority over its "borders", but that doesnt mean that Israel has to open its borders for them.

But the important thing is to throw some evil word into the post to build up the hate.
 
The Land of Israel as we know it by its biblical name 'Knaan' was promised to the Great Patriarchs of the Hebrew People. First it was promised to Abraham in clear verses in the Torah in Genesis, secondly it was promised to Isaac his Son, and then to his Son Jacob who is called 'Israel' after he defeated the Angel as famously recorded in the Torah in Genesis. Thus the Land of Israel was called so after the greatest of the Patriarchs, Jacob aka, Israel. The Torah points out that the greatest of the three Patriarchs, was Jacob (Israel), because unlike Abraham who had a wicked son Ishmael and Isaac who had a wicked son Esau, all the Children of Jacob(Israel) were righteous. The Torah later records how Jacob (Israel) and his 12 Tribes (Sons) go down to Egypt and settle there and how they get enslaved by Pharaoh for more then 200 years. After the time that God had set for the duration of their exile comes to an end, the God of Israel performs earth shuttering and world shacking grand scale miracles to rescue them and free them and bring them back to their natural God Given Land, the Land of Israel.

In the great 10 Plagues the God of Israel shows Pharaoh and all other Egyptians and the entire world at large who is in charge and who is the True Owner and Ruler and King of the world. Without any shadow of any doubt, The clarity of God's existence becomes self evident when God performs all these great miracles that defy the laws of nature, and bring about the complete salvation of his people from the hands of a brutal dictator.

So at the end of this, Egypt is completely and utterly devastated and destroyed, and the Jewish people begin a remarkable journey of spirituality in the desert that prepares them to become the nation that will receive the oracles of the only true faith directly from God himself in a grand spectacle done in a manner of a National Revelation, where every single Jewish , men women and Child and also all the millions of non-Jews who joined them after they saw with their own eyes the grandeur of God's greatness, will together at once will witness how God reveals himself to them with great spectacles and sounds and thunders and will give them his written word , The Torah publicly without any intermediators.

Thus the Jewish people became a nation at that pivotal time when they received God's Torah and in unison the Jewish religion was born in that pivotal moment in human history. Unprecedented in all the religions of the world, Judaism stands out as the only religion that didn't begin from the preachings of one loner who claimed that God had spoke to him, like for example, Christianity and Islam solely base their foundations on one man's dreams. Judaism on the other hand, didn't completely believe in Moses' claim to be the prophet of god, until all of them together had experienced prophecy , only then when they saw with their own eyes and heard with their own ears God's glorious presence when he revealed himself to them and said in the Ten Commandments : " I am Hashem your Lord, that took you out from the land of Egypt from the house of slaves, Do not have other gods before me" only then they believed Moses' status as a True Prophet sent by God.

So it is written in the Torah with extreme accuracy and crystal clarity that the God of Israel had chosen the Jewish people and all converts to Judaism who joined the Jews all throughout the years as his Chosen People and a Holy nation and a Kingdom of Priests. To them the God of Israel had performed all the great miracles that are recorded in the Torah, to them and not to Muslims, not to Christians, and not to hindus, and not to anyone else for that matter.

And he decided to dwell inside them by instructing them to build for his name a Temple where he will dwell with them, in the holy of holies. With them he had made an Ever lasting covenant in mount Sinai, never to be broken, or changed under any circumstances, no matter what will happen this covenant which god had swore by his name will exist forever, and he will never change them with another people as god had said in the Torah clearly in the verse Numbers 23:19 : "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?".

God himself tells us in the Torah that he is not a Man, for a man can change his mind, but god doesn't change his mind, therefore when he chose the Jewish People and made a covenant with them, it is an ever lasting one, not to bound to change under any circumstances. He also says in the Ten commandments never to attribute any kind of physicality to him, for He is all spiritual and has absolutely no physicality what so ever :" Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth". "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them".

Clearly when Christians claim that Jesus is god they are in fact according to the standards of the Torah and of god himself are in fact worshipping idols for god had specifically said with the clearest possible words and terms to not do that, not to attribute any kind of physicality to him, for doing so is against the will of The God of Israel.

The Muslims on the other came up with this claim that the person who was taken to be offered as a sacrifice by Abraham was not Isaac as the Torah says and as God himself says, they believe that it was Ishmael. There are major critical problems with this Muslim invention:

God himself tells Abraham to send Ishmael and his mother away, for only Isaac will be the person that will be the line to continue the chain in bringing about the Nation of Israel to be the people to receive the Torah. The God of Israel saves the Jewish people, the children of Isaac, by performing for them amazing ground shaking miracles and bringing them to the foot of Mount Sinai to give them his most precious thing, his Torah. In fact Ishmael never is mentioned after his story in Genesis, and from Isaac the history of the Jewish people and how they were saved and all that they had went through is recorded. They are the Heroes of the Torah, and Ishmael is never mentioned anymore, for he was sent away. And the Children of Israel were saved from Pharaoh because their forefather Abraham passed the test and was willing to bring his beloved son Isaac (the father of Jacob) as a sacrifice before God. So there is absolutely no logical or rational justification to this Muslim invention that defies all common sense and wisdom, and was just invented by the first Muslims to somehow try to steal the Title of Israel from the Jewish people, and was only believed by the pagans of that time who knew no better, and had no tools to counter the first missionaries of Islam, who really didn't give any choice to anyone just like the first Christians, it was either accept their 'claims' or be killed, so much for free will or free choice.

So the Christians have a twisted understanding of what God is and what God is not, for anyone who has a true understanding of God will never ever blame another one that he killed god, because god is above all the physical things that govern physical things, like death. God can't be killed, and if he can then he can't be god, and one of the greatest evidence that Jesus was not god, is that he was killed, and bled to death. That's without even saying that he was a mortal, flesh and blood, and physical, born of a man and a woman. The mind can't bare, and the wisdom can't accept that the God of the universe who created heaven and earth and everything in between will be a product of a flesh and blood creature and travel through her worldly body and go through the dirt and stink that all kids have to go through. This is nothing but pure pagan belief, not so much different then all the other men made religions of the world who never went through the 'Truth Detector' of Judaism's 'National Revelation' where the God of the Universe himself reveals himself to his followers and no doubts can exist after that at all.

Said all of this since the Jewish people are the descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob the people that god had swore to them that he will give this land to them, therefore from this power and only from this ultimate power which is the will of god in this world, the land of Israel belongs to them.
For God had created heaven and earth and he can give and take from anyone to anyone as he sees fit for he is the master of all, and no one can tell him what to do. The god of Israel chose the Jewish people from all the peoples of the world and he made an everlasting covenant with them and he gave them the land of their forefathers forever and ever, and under his instruction they built there two great temples for his Name, and had great Kingdoms and civilizations that gave to humanity and influenced humanity like no other people in history.

Regards,

Didn't you hear I made my own faith and God said that all of USA belongs to me and my people. ;)
 
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