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Why it's confusing us more than guiding us?

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Well as I said before, and I agree that some religions are man-created but some are not.

Well, I doubt it... and even if I did not, all that would be left would be a huge question mark.

Let's assume for a moment that some religion might have a non-human origin. That would only mean that we would have one further reason to wonder if it can be of any constructive use.

No need to impose aimless uncertainty upon ourselves.
 
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Tomorrows_Child

Active Member
True. it is up to us to decide what is right. But, people need some guiding to enlighten them, and to open their eyes to the right path.

100% agreed, which is why Allah sent guidance throughout time periods and nations. Now, the final and unchanged guidance is that of the Quran. In it you find no mistakes and no contradiction or confusion.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
I don't know about Christianity. You can't judge all religions by that.




Exactly.

Because God want, the prophet Muhammed peace be upon him, to be the last messenger that is why he is the last messenger. Not because you do want or you don’t want. Because he want and he said so.

Talking about the strongest, God is the strongest, the greatest, the almighty, but also God is the most merciful. He can just make you worship him forcefully, because he can. But instead he is giving you the free will, so you yourself decide to worship him, by yourself. He created you, but didn’t force you to worship him despite him being the almighty and the strongest.

God give you the free will, he let you think before you decide so that you can see by yourself how he created you, and how he created the universe, how great is the world you live in, he gave you a chance to think before you decide. He didn't make you submit to Him, before you truly believe in him. He didn't force you but he can. And you call God close-minded.





Still, if God " is the supreme being, completely omnipotent, and can pretty much do whatever the heck he wants to"
If he forced you to worship him because" he can do what he want", you will still complain.

But if you think about Islam this way, then I may say that you are the closed-minded, because you had an image you don't want to change about Islam.

By the way, our holy book, to befit all the ages, it talks about the past, the present and the future.

Islam is just another man made religion. End of story.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
100% agreed, which is why Allah sent guidance throughout time periods and nations. Now, the final and unchanged guidance is that of the Quran. In it you find no mistakes and no contradiction or confusion.

There are plenty of mistakes/errors in the Quran, as it was written by humans. The same with any other writing done by primitive people that had very little scientific or medical knowledge.

For starters, the moon does not emit light, it only reflects light from the sun.
 

Tomorrows_Child

Active Member
There are plenty of mistakes/errors in the Quran, as it was written by humans. The same with any other writing done by primitive people that had very little scientific or medical knowledge.

For starters, the moon does not emit light, it only reflects light from the sun.

Nowhere in the Quran does it state such a thing.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
[Quran, 25:61] "See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another, And made the moon a (reflecting) light in their midst, and made the sun as a Glorious Lamp?"

Yeah, it gets the light situation right (which is pretty obvious is you watch the sun and moon for a couple of months), but in the same sentence talks about the obvious seven heavens. Ohhhhhk.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Nowhere in the Quran does it state such a thing.

Quran, 10:5 - He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate. GOD did not create all this, except for a specific purpose. He explains the revelations for people who know.

Pretty cut and dry.
 

Tomorrows_Child

Active Member
Quran, 10:5 - He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate. GOD did not create all this, except for a specific purpose. He explains the revelations for people who know.

Pretty cut and dry.

Is the moon not a light? Now, the real crux of this and I assume it's what you are trying to get at, is that the moon itself is not a source of light. If that's what you are saying then you are 100% right and the Quran agrees with you.

The verse you quote is from surah Younus. Now, I'm not sure if you have done so n purpose or out of ignorance (I would like to believe the latter) but the translation is not accurate. There are 2 different words used, in Arabic, to describe the lights of the sun and the moon. If the Quran, mistaken as it is in your claim, had used the same word, I would agree that there was a belief that the moon was a source of light. However, the Quran does not make that mistake.

The word used to describe the suns light is diyaan, meaning a brilliant light/a source of light. Yet a different word is used to describe the light of the moon, noorun, meaning light but not of it's own, a reflection if you will. If you believe God had made a mistake, why did he not use the same words for both forms of light?

To go even deeper, the true context of this verse is describing the human perception of time and space. Of how you or I view the universe and to us, both the sun and the moon provide light, even in this regard the Quran is spot on. So again, there is no mistake here except the one perceived by someone who does not fully understand what they are reading.

Now, just to further alleviate any doubts, in another surah (The Criterion) which has been numbered as the 25th surah, verse 61, a more thought provoking verse, where Allah described the sun as sirajah, meaning lamp. What does a lamp do? It originates light. And then goes onto describe the moon as muneera, which means shining. When something shines, it is picking up and reflecting light from else where, like the little sparkles kids use to decorate their posters, they shine, do they not?

If there was a mistake, the arabic words for lamp and light would be same for the moon and the sun. So, as you can see, it has been made plain to you.

I will leave you with another verse from the Quran:

"And those who have no knowledge say: "Why does not Allah speak to us (face to face) or why does not a sign come to us?" So said the people before them words of similar import. Their hearts are alike, We have indeed made plain the signs for people who believe with certainty."
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I'm confused, you both seem to be arguing against yourselves. TC said the sun/moon thing wasn't in the Quran because it's perfectly correct in all things, and Neo said it was because its authors were ignorant. Don't get me wrong, Neo's right about the fallible Quran, (re: the 7 Heavens), but youseewhatImsayin'.

Tomorros_Child said:
The word used to describe the suns light is diyaan, meaning a brilliant light/a source of light. Yet a different word is used to describe the light of the moon, noorun, meaning light but not of it's own, a reflection if you will. If you believe God had made a mistake, why did he not use the same words for both forms of light?

Exactly but, you said it wasn't in there.
 

Tomorrows_Child

Active Member
I'm confused, you both seem to be arguing against yourselves. TC said the sun/moon thing wasn't in the Quran because it's perfectly correct in all things, and Neo said it was because its authors were ignorant. Don't get me wrong, Neo's right about the fallible Quran, (re: the 7 Heavens), but youseewhatImsayin'.



Exactly but, you said it wasn't in there.

I'm pretty sure he has edited that post but if he hasn't it's pretty clear he is implying that the quran does not make a differentiation between the sun producing its own light and the moon reflecting it. So I'm correcting him on that and by your own admission, the Quran has got that right. Any other mistakes you think it makes?
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
I'm pretty sure he has edited that post but if he hasn't it's pretty clear he is implying that the quran does not make a differentiation between the sun producing its own light and the moon reflecting it. So I'm correcting him on that and by your own admission, the Quran has got that right. Any other mistakes you think it makes?

I have not edited anything. My premise stands...the Quran is not infallible. Humans wrote it, therefore it can be screwed up.
 

Tomorrows_Child

Active Member
I have not edited anything. My premise stands...the Quran is not infallible. Humans wrote it, therefore it can be screwed up.

I proved to you that the sun and the moon are described differently and you seemingly admitted it too. So where is the mistake? It's a pretty simple question.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I proved to you that the sun and the moon are described differently and you seemingly admitted it too. So where is the mistake? It's a pretty simple question.

All over, starting with the seven heavens in the moon/sun explanation, and world conquest in the name of a theocracy--much less one named "Submission".
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
I proved to you that the sun and the moon are described differently and you seemingly admitted it too. So where is the mistake? It's a pretty simple question.

What proof?

Besides, my charge is that the Quran calls the moon a light, which it does, even though it is not a light. It reflects the sun's light.

That and since it was written by humans, it will have errors.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
So...the mistake is what? You still haven't answered that question.

You keep repeating this "7 heaven" idea. What about it?

Why do you s'pose that is? And since I've asked (so politely) several time, why haven't you answered? Of course I'm saying he got the sun/moon thing right, which could be done by any semi-intelligent person studying them for a couple of months. And then you completely ignore the second half of what you quoted me saying. But that's OK, everybody else sees it..
 

Tomorrows_Child

Active Member
What proof?

Besides, my charge is that the Quran calls the moon a light, which it does, even though it is not a light. It reflects the sun's light.

That and since it was written by humans, it will have errors.

I answered you in a long and detailed post. Did you read it? If not, go back and read it and you shall find your answer.

Why do you s'pose that is? And since I've asked (so politely) several time, why haven't you answered? Of course I'm saying he got the sun/moon thing right, which could be done by any semi-intelligent person studying them for a couple of months. And then you completely ignore the second half of what you quoted me saying. But that's OK, everybody else sees it..

But you haven't asked me anything. You have mentioned "7 heavens" on 4 separate occasions yet never asked a question. You can either put forward a mistake from the Quran, back it up or move on. It's really simple, especially considering you state there are so many.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I answered you in a long and detailed post. Did you read it? If not, go back and read it and you shall find your answer.

But you haven't asked me anything. You have mentioned "7 heavens" on 4 separate occasions yet never asked a question. You can either put forward a mistake from the Quran, back it up or move on. It's really simple, especially considering you state there are so many.

So you're acknowledging that you've ignored it four times, but now you're trying a new tack, just not addressing it--which is really incongruous since those two statements are sitting there in the same passage. Now you say, "What two statements?"
 
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Tomorrows_Child

Active Member
So you're acknowledging that you've ignored it four times, but now you're trying a new tack, just not addressing it--which is really incongruous since those two statements are sitting there in the same passage. Now you say, "What two statements?"

I will ask again, the last time, what is your issue with the statement "7 heavens", you have yet to tell me. How is it a mistake? What is it a mistake in regards to? Do you believe there are a billion heavens or none?
 
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