Why Jesus did not Rule the first time, but will Rule the second time?

[CG Didymus]

So, when Gospel is spread around the world, still, Christ may come 1000 years, or 2000 years after that?

Then, what is the point of the verse saying "then"?

Yeah, it's silly what people can do with Scripture verses. Like when a story is talking about the return of Christ and out of nowhere people make the word "woe" means a prophet from God. And when the second "woe" is over, they say that the next "woe" that is coming "quickly" is 19 years later.

Not surprising at all that a Christian would interpret things different than a Baha'i.

 

[Sargonski]

Two simple questions;

1. Why Jesus did not Rule the first time, but will Rule the second time?

2. What is the purpose of Jesus's Ruling?

1) because Ha Satan was Chief God over the earth .. and he offered this position to Jesus .. but Jesus didn't want it...
2) Jesus is going to take over later .. the purpose similar to the "Tester of Souls" - Ha Satan .. to weigh the deeds of man on the scales of Justice .. separate the sheep from the Goats .. the sheep go to eternal life ... the Goats go to eternal punishment .. the purpose of Jesus Ruling is to Punish .. those souls that have been found wanting .. complete the mission of Ha-Satan.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, it's silly what people can do with Scripture verses. Like when a story is talking about the return of Christ and out of nowhere people make the word "woe" means a prophet from God. And when the second "woe" is over, they say that the next "woe" that is coming "quickly" is 19 years later.

Nine years later, not nineteen years later.

The Old Testament clearly prophesied Twin Holy messengers that will come in succession.

“Zechariah, speaking of the last days, prophesied of the twin holy souls who would appear, saying: “Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”(Zechariah 4:14). In addition to the two ‘woes’, Revelation speaks of the ‘two olive trees’ and the ‘two candlesticks’. Malachi, speaking of the time of the end, prophesied:“Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” (Malachi 4:5). This was the very land, Persia, in which Daniel beheld.”… one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven…” (Daniel 7:13).

The Báb foretold that this great Redeemer would appear exactly nine years after his own coming. He would, therefore, as prophesied in the Old Testament, ‘suddenly come to his temple’. He would thus come just as Christ had so often emphasized in the Book of Revelation: “Behold I come quickly.”

Malachi, who called it the great and dreadful day of the Lord, foretold the appearance of two at the time of the end, saying:“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple …” (Malachi 3:1). The Báb repeatedly said that he was the Dawn, but that the Promise of all Ages Who was soon to come after him would be the Sun. He foretold that this great world Saviour would usher in an age of unprecedented progress and peace.” Thief in the Night, pp. 93-94

Baha’u’llah became aware of His revelation from God in 1853, in the Black Pit prison, exactly nine years after the Bab foretold the great Redeemer would appear: A revelation from God

Not surprising at all that a Christian would interpret things different than a Baha'i.

No, it is not surprising at all, since for Christians EVERYTHING has to be about Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

the next "woe" that is coming "quickly" is 19 years later.

Nine years, nineteen years, whatever Baha'is need to prove, there is always a Bible verse or some other way to prove it.

​

The Bab’s mission, he told his followers, was to prepare the way for the founder of a universal and unifying world religion – Baha’u’llah, the prophet and founder of the Baha’i Faith, who would declare his mission nineteen years later in 1863.​

​

Then there's the word "woe". Here's fourteen times the Greek word for "woe" is used, but only the three woes in Revelation are interpreted by Abdul Baha' and the Baha'is as being manifestations?

​

What is the Greek Word used to describe Woe?​

1. Ouai – Of Sorrow

What are 14 Examples of Woe in the Bible? (James Bible Dictionary) (King James Bible)​

• Moab – Great City – Land of the Philistines – Mountain of Samaria
• Wicked
• My Soul
• My Wound
• Those who Call Evil Good
• Are Mighty in Drink – Strong Drink
• False Prophets
• Pastors that Destroy
• Foolish woman
• Scribes
• Pharisees
• Blind Guides – Shepherds of Israel
• Lawyers
• Religious Leaders
• Treacherous Dealers
• Rebellious Children – House of Israel
• Inhabitants of the EartWhitewash tombs of the Prophets – cleanse the outside of the cup
• Man of Strife
• Going after Evil Gain
• Ignoring weightier matters of the law
• Son of Man
• Man of Unclean Lips
• Foolish Prophets – unrighteous decrees
• Ignore Jesus Christ
• First woe – voices of the Trumpet – Midst of Heaven
• Second Woe – Great Distress
• Third Woe – Great Wrath

 

[Dave Watchman]

1. Why Jesus did not Rule the first time, but will Rule the second time?

It's like asking if Jesus is God, why couldn't He have just done anything He wanted at His first visitation? Why couldn't He have forced the better conclusion and just made it happen? Or have done better miracles. Maybe put on a Mandalorian suit made of bescar armour and flew around with a jet pack and scared the Romans away? We would have a different world right now. I think it must be that they wanted our faith to be stronger, in the things unseen. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen.

I think it could have happened, there was that possibility. Everything hinged on what the Israelite's did during the first half of the 70th week of Daniel 9.

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. - Jesus​

What if the Old Time Jews were willing? What if they did let their Messiah, our Messiah, gather them like a hen gathers it's chicks? Something different could have taken place with the OT conditional Judaic Prophecies. If they would have just let Jesus gather them as a hen gathers it's chicks, Ezekiel's temple would have been built already. They would have engaged those old conditional Judaic Prophecies of the OT. But they missed the time of their Visitation. Jesus had to stick with the Script, so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

To Seal Both Vision and Prophet.

God had three prophets in operation at the same time. Daniel, Ezekiel and Jeremiah. Three prophets were prophesying, but He was giving them two different end time narratives, Everything would hinge on Israel's behaviour during the 70 weeks, and especially the first half of the 70th week.. 70 weeks were determined, 70 weeks were "chawthak" or cut off. It really was Old Israel's one last and final chance:

• to finish the transgression,
• to put an end to sin,
• and to atone for iniquity,
• to bring in everlasting righteousness,
• to seal both vision and prophet,
• and to anoint a most holy place.

It was in their midst. All that they would have had to do was to accept their Messiah. It's why John the Baptist was always saying that the Kingdom of God was at hand. Because it really was at hand right then and there. If the Old Time Jews would have cooperated and accepted their Messiah it would have been a completely different world right now. Daniel would have remained forever sealed, Revelation would have never been written. We would have built Ezekiel's Temple sometime in the middle ages.

The original plan was for the Jews to accept their Messiah, then Jesus would have began the Kingdom of God on earth right away because it really was "at hand" at that time. John the Baptist would not have died the way that he did, "lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction". Jesus would have sent disciples out from Jerusalem to invite anyone who wanted to be saved to come and live there in the Kingdom of God in the 1st century. The good news of the Kingdom of God would have travelled far and fast. Jerusalem would have eventually grown to such a huge population that it's walls could no longer contain it.

Then, after some time, Satan in the guise of Gog Magog would attempt to attack the unwalled Holy City but Jesus would destroy him and his army where they stood and we would spend the next seven years burying them and burning their wooden weapons. And the wolf would lay down with the lamb and we could watch an infant stick his hand into a viper's den while we built Ezekiel's Temple.

But now instead, Paul gets knocked off his horse, the NT and Revelation gets written, Daniel gets unsealed for the final generation, we get an end time Babylon, an end time Antichrist, mark of the beast, two witnesses of 144,000, Jesus makes His Second Visitation and we have a brand New Jerusalem with an end time variation on Gog Magog.

That's about my quickest explanation of why Jesus did not Rule the first time, but why will He Rule the second time?

There's no avoiding it now. We are at the appointed time for it. The Prophetic Time Periods in Daniel and Revelation are painting us into a corner. The Father has fixed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” And compared to the first century, there's certainly enough people now, both dead and alive, to repopulate the mansions of the Father's House which became vacant during that war in heaven.

2. What is the purpose of Jesus's Ruling?

The one coming up is a specific Rule, Christ will Rule WITH the Saints for the thousand years of Revelation 20. I would imagine it must have to do with the Pauline phase of the judgment process. It happens in the Father's House, a place has been prepared for us. And it can only begin when the Saints are all back alive again. Or did you not know that the Saints will judge the world? Do you not know that we will judge angels? I'd imagine that will take awhile.

It seems most Christians think Jesus comes back to Rule on the earth for a thousand years. But "heaven must receive Him until the time comes to restore "all things". And that doesn't happen until after the White Throne Judgment, after the thousand years are finished. Some debate the state of the earth during the millennium. I call it like the Old Bartender at closing time: "you might not have to go Home, but you can't stay here".

That's about the best way I can think of wording it out, based on my read.

 

[blü 2]

Two simple questions;

1. Why Jesus did not Rule the first time, but will Rule the second time?

2. What is the purpose of Jesus's Ruling?

The answer to Q.1 appears to be that his mission in the gospels was from the start and always a suicide mission. That's why he foretold a dismal end early in Mark, got smart with Pilate to make sure he stayed annoyed, and why in all four gospel garden scenes around the Last Supper, God refused to let that cup pass from Jesus.

That's to say, for reasons wholly opaque to me Jesus was not there to rule.

The answer to Q.2 might be along these lines. Jewish people at that time were in an apocalyptic mood. They believed the Kingdom of God would shortly arrive, led, in one non-biblical version, by the OT character Enoch, who didn't die but went to live with God, but in the biblical version by the Son of Man). In all three synoptics, Jesus promised that the Kingdom would be established on earth within the lifetime of some of Jesus' audience. Its absence from John suggests that John's author thought it had already failed. However,. the identity of the Son of Man who's to lead the kingdom is in the synoptics sometimes clearly Jesus and sometimes apparently not, which is why I mention the currency at that time of the Enoch version.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bab’s mission, he told his followers, was to prepare the way for the founder of a universal and unifying world religion – Baha’u’llah, the prophet and founder of the Baha’i Faith, who would declare his mission nineteen years later in 1863.

I have always heard Baha'is say "19" years. That is the time between the declaration of the Bab in 1844 and the declaration of Baha'u'llah in 1863.

Is this "9" years period between the declaration of the one to the vision of the other something that is now considered more significant to Baha'is?

Then there's the word "woe". Here's fourteen times the Greek word for "woe" is used, but only the three woes in Revelation are interpreted by Abdul Baha' and the Baha'is as being manifestations?

Why are the "Three Woes" in Revelation the only time "woe" is interpreted as being a "manifestation"? Too inconsistent. Too selective. If Baha'is are to use logic and reasoning, how do they support this kind of an interpretation from the person that is their number one interpreter, Abdul Baha?

Do the Baha'is have an explanation and response to these?

 

[Trailblazer]

I have always heard Baha'is say "19" years. That is the time between the declaration of the Bab in 1844 and the declaration of Baha'u'llah in 1863.

Is this "9" years period between the declaration of the one to the vision of the other something that is now considered more significant to Baha'is?

Both years are significant, but the nine years fulfills the Bible prophecies.
The Old Testament clearly prophesied Twin Holy messengers that will come in succession, one right after the other.

“Zechariah, speaking of the last days, prophesied of the twin holy souls who would appear, saying: “Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”(Zechariah 4:14). In addition to the two ‘woes’, Revelation speaks of the ‘two olive trees’ and the ‘two candlesticks’. Malachi, speaking of the time of the end, prophesied:“Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” (Malachi 4:5). This was the very land, Persia, in which Daniel beheld.”… one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven…” (Daniel 7:13).

The Báb foretold that this great Redeemer would appear exactly nine years after his own coming. He would, therefore, as prophesied in the Old Testament, ‘suddenly come to his temple’. He would thus come just as Christ had so often emphasized in the Book of Revelation: “Behold I come quickly.”

Malachi, who called it the great and dreadful day of the Lord, foretold the appearance of two at the time of the end, saying:“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple …” (Malachi 3:1). The Báb repeatedly said that he was the Dawn, but that the Promise of all Ages Who was soon to come after him would be the Sun. He foretold that this great world Saviour would usher in an age of unprecedented progress and peace.” Thief in the Night, pp. 93-94

Bahá'u'lláh claimed that his mission as the Promised One of the Báb, was revealed to Him in 1853 while imprisoned in the Síyáh-Chál in Tehran, Iran.[4] After his release from the Síyáh-Chál, Bahá'u'lláh was banished from Persia, and he settled in Baghdad, which became the centre of Bábí activity. Although he did not openly declare this prophetic mandate, he increasingly became the leader of the Bábí community.[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridvan

Baha’u’llah became aware of His revelation from God in the Black Pit prison in 1853, exactly nine years after the Bab foretold the great Redeemer would appear: A revelation from God

The Bab was a Manifestation of God (Messenger) in His own right, so He was the first resurrection. He referred to the revelation of Baha’u’llah as the Latter Resurrection, and granted the Babis a respite of 19 years to be able to recognize Baha’u’llah, because the Bab knew that Baha’u’llah would publicly declare His Mission in1863. That is written in the second paragraph of Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 6-7.

“This is a letter from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting, unto God, the Almighty, the Best Beloved, to affirm that the Bayán and such as bear allegiance to it are but a present from me unto Thee and to express my undoubting faith that there is no God but Thee, that the kingdoms of Creation and Revelation are Thine, that no one can attain anything save by Thy power and that He Whom Thou hast raised up is but Thy servant and Thy Testimony. I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: ‘Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 6-7

Why are the "Three Woes" in Revelation the only time "woe" is interpreted as being a "manifestation"? Too inconsistent. Too selective. If Baha'is are to use logic and reasoning, how do they support this kind of an interpretation from the person that is their number one interpreter, Abdul Baha?

Do the Baha'is have an explanation and response to these?

Context is everything. There is no reason why the word "woe" would refer to the same things in different verses of the Bible.

The Baha'i interpretation of the three woes in the book of Revelation:

“The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” 22 The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muhammad, the son of ‘Abdu’lláh—peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb—to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One. The explanation of this subject, woe, is mentioned in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.” 23

Therefore, it is certain that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is for the neglectful, woe is for the sinners, woe is for the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; behold the third woe cometh quickly!” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the day of God; and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.” 24

Some Answered Questions, p. 56

From the chapter 11: COMMENTARY ON THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF THE REVELATION OF ST. JOHN


Now look at how some Christians interpret the woes in the book of Revelation.

What are the three woes of Revelation? | GotQuestions.org

Of course the Baha'i interpretation is going to be different, since Baha'is do not believe what Christians believe, it is so different!

However, the Christians got the third woe right... The third woe is the return of Christ, when God's kingdom will be established on earth..

The third woe is revealed after the seventh trumpet judgment. This woe is parallel to the trumpet that sounds in Joel 2 and signals the consummation of God’s plan for the entire world. This third woe marks the finishing of God’s judgment on sin; it occupies the book of Revelation through the 19th chapter, when Christ’s Kingdom is established on earth. Incorporated within this third and final woe are the seven “bowls” of God’s wrath, described in Revelation 16:1-21. This series of judgments is the greatest horror the citizens of earth have ever seen. Jesus said, “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive” (Matthew 24:22).

What are the three woes of Revelation? | GotQuestions.org

Christians got it right except for one thing -- Jesus Christ’s Kingdom is never going to be established on earth because Jesus said He was no more in this world and His work was finished here (John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30)

Jesus’ work was finished when He died on the cross, John 19:30 but Christians could not face that so they tried to bring Jesus back to life by writing stories saying that Jesus rose from the dead.

But the important thing is that Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. That means that the return of Christ has to be another Person.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have always heard Baha'is say "19" years. That is the time between the declaration of the Bab in 1844 and the declaration of Baha'u'llah in 1863.

Is this "9" years period between the declaration of the one to the vision of the other something that is now considered more significant to Baha'is?

Both years are significant, but the nine years fulfills the Bible prophecies.
The Old Testament clearly prophesied Twin Holy messengers that will come in succession, one right after the other.

“Zechariah, speaking of the last days, prophesied of the twin holy souls who would appear, saying: “Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”(Zechariah 4:14). In addition to the two ‘woes’, Revelation speaks of the ‘two olive trees’ and the ‘two candlesticks’. Malachi, speaking of the time of the end, prophesied:“Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” (Malachi 4:5). This was the very land, Persia, in which Daniel beheld.”… one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven…” (Daniel 7:13).

The Báb foretold that this great Redeemer would appear exactly nine years after his own coming. He would, therefore, as prophesied in the Old Testament, ‘suddenly come to his temple’. He would thus come just as Christ had so often emphasized in the Book of Revelation: “Behold I come quickly.”

Malachi, who called it the great and dreadful day of the Lord, foretold the appearance of two at the time of the end, saying:“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple …” (Malachi 3:1). The Báb repeatedly said that he was the Dawn, but that the Promise of all Ages Who was soon to come after him would be the Sun. He foretold that this great world Saviour would usher in an age of unprecedented progress and peace.” Thief in the Night, pp. 93-94

Bahá'u'lláh claimed that his mission as the Promised One of the Báb, was revealed to Him in 1853 while imprisoned in the Síyáh-Chál in Tehran, Iran.[4] After his release from the Síyáh-Chál, Bahá'u'lláh was banished from Persia, and he settled in Baghdad, which became the centre of Bábí activity. Although he did not openly declare this prophetic mandate, he increasingly became the leader of the Bábí community.[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridvan

Baha’u’llah became aware of His revelation from God in the Black Pit prison in 1853, exactly nine years after the Bab foretold the great Redeemer would appear: A revelation from God

The Bab was a Manifestation of God (Messenger) in His own right, so He was the first resurrection. He referred to the revelation of Baha’u’llah as the Latter Resurrection, and granted the Babis a respite of 19 years to be able to recognize Baha’u’llah, because the Bab knew that Baha’u’llah would publicly declare His Mission in1863. That is written in the second paragraph of Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 6-7.

“This is a letter from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting, unto God, the Almighty, the Best Beloved, to affirm that the Bayán and such as bear allegiance to it are but a present from me unto Thee and to express my undoubting faith that there is no God but Thee, that the kingdoms of Creation and Revelation are Thine, that no one can attain anything save by Thy power and that He Whom Thou hast raised up is but Thy servant and Thy Testimony. I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: ‘Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 6-7

Context is everything. There is no reason why the word "woe" would refer to the same things in different verses of the Bible.

The Baha'i interpretation of the three woes in the book of Revelation:

“The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” 22 The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muhammad, the son of ‘Abdu’lláh—peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb—to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One. The explanation of this subject, woe, is mentioned in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.” 23

Therefore, it is certain that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is for the neglectful, woe is for the sinners, woe is for the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; behold the third woe cometh quickly!” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the day of God; and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.” 24

Some Answered Questions, p. 56

From the chapter 11: COMMENTARY ON THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF THE REVELATION OF ST. JOHN


Now look at how some Christians interpret the woes in the book of Revelation.

What are the three woes of Revelation? | GotQuestions.org

Of course the Baha'i interpretation is going to be different, since Baha'is do not believe what Christians believe, it is so different!

However, the Christians got the third woe right... The third woe is the return of Christ, when God's kingdom will be established on earth..

The third woe is revealed after the seventh trumpet judgment. This woe is parallel to the trumpet that sounds in Joel 2 and signals the consummation of God’s plan for the entire world. This third woe marks the finishing of God’s judgment on sin; it occupies the book of Revelation through the 19th chapter, when Christ’s Kingdom is established on earth. Incorporated within this third and final woe are the seven “bowls” of God’s wrath, described in Revelation 16:1-21. This series of judgments is the greatest horror the citizens of earth have ever seen. Jesus said, “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive” (Matthew 24:22).

What are the three woes of Revelation? | GotQuestions.org

Christians got it right except for one thing -- Jesus Christ’s Kingdom is never going to be established on earth because Jesus said He was no more in this world and His work was finished here (John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30)

Jesus’ work was finished when He died on the cross, John 19:30 but Christians could not face that so they tried to bring Jesus back to life by writing stories saying that Jesus rose from the dead.

But the important thing is that Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. That means that the return of Christ has to be another Person.

@Trailblazer quotes the specific request from the Bab.

The 9 years was the time between Revelations given by God, from the public declaration of the Bab in 1844 to the first disciple, to Baha'u'llah given Revelation in prison in 1853.

The 19 years was requested from the Bab, which Baha'u'llah granted by withholding the public declaration of his Revelation until 1863.

So many Biblical Prophecies fulfilled by these declarations, that many have wrote books to explain the fulfillment.

No other Messengers in recorded history have such a level of proof of the fulfillment of Prophecies, yet exponents of of older faiths will not look with unbiased minds.

It is a strange world we subject ourselves to, a distorted reality. God brings us Love, peace, morals and virtues, we stick to exclusive predudices of self driven faith, hate, revenge and lack of virtues and morality.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

@Trailblazer quotes the specific request from the Bab.

The 9 years was the time between Revelations given by God, from the public declaration of the Bab in 1844 to the first disciple, to Baha'u'llah given Revelation in prison in 1853.

The 19 years was requested from the Bab, which Baha'u'llah granted by withholding the public declaration of his Revelation until 1863.

So many Biblical Prophecies fulfilled by these declarations, that many have wrote books to explain the fulfillment.

No other Messengers in recorded history have such a level of proof of the fulfillment of Prophecies, yet exponents of of older faiths will not look with unbiased minds.

It is a strange world we subject ourselves to, a distorted reality. God brings us Love, peace, morals and virtues, we stick to exclusive predudices of self driven faith, hate, revenge and lack of virtues and morality.

Regards Tony

I don't remember 1853 being mentioned at Baha'i fireside talks. The main date mentioned was always 1844. And Baha'u'llah it was always when he declared himself in 1863. I found this about Baha'is and 1863. I didn't see anything about 1853.

Baha’i communities worldwide celebrate their most sacred festival, Ridvan, which takes from the end of April to the beginning of May each year. This event commemorates the 12 days that Baha’u’llah spent on the banks of the Tigris River in Baghdad in 1863, during which He declared His mission as God’s Messenger for a new age and revealed the spiritual principles that are the foundation of His teachings.​

And, as you know I'm very skeptical of so-called "fulfilled" prophecies of not only the Baha'i Faith but also Christianity. The "Three Woes" are a great example of why. To me, the angel says "woe", because of all the turmoil that is about to happen. And with each "woe" it gets worse. Everything about these angels is something bad coming.

I think the only reason Baha'is use it is because it says that after the second "woe" the third one will come quickly. I don't see any reason from the context to think that the "woes" refer to Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

But I'm sure you and other Baha'is see it in every verse.

 

[CG Didymus]

"This series of judgments is the greatest horror the citizens of earth have ever seen. Jesus said, “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive” (Matthew 24:22)."

When did these "greatest" horrors happen? That's why I keep asking if there are prophecies that have the Messiah come, get essentially rejected, and things get worse?

Then Zechariah 4....

Then the angel who talked with me returned and woke me up, like someone awakened from sleep. 2 He asked me, “What do you see?”​

​

I answered, “I see a solid gold lampstand with a bowl at the top and seven lamps on it, with seven channels to the lamps. 3 Also there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left.”​

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4 I asked the angel who talked with me, “What are these, my lord?”​

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5 He answered, “Do you not know what these are?”​

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“No, my lord,” I replied.​

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6 So he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty.​

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7 “What are you, mighty mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone to shouts of ‘God bless it! God bless it!’”​

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8 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 9 “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you.​

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10 “Who dares despise the day of small things, since the seven eyes of the Lord that range throughout the earth will rejoice when they see the chosen capstone[a] in the hand of Zerubbabel?”​

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11 Then I asked the angel, “What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the lampstand?”​

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12 Again I asked him, “What are these two olive branches beside the two gold pipes that pour out golden oil?”​

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13 He replied, “Do you not know what these are?”​

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“No, my lord,” I said.​

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14 So he said, “These are the two who are anointed to[b] serve the Lord of all the earth.”​

Things continue into chapter 5 and beyond...,

5 I looked again, and there before me was a flying scroll.​

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2 He asked me, “What do you see?”​

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I answered, “I see a flying scroll, twenty cubits long and ten cubits wide.”​

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3 And he said to me, “This is the curse that is going out over the whole land; for according to what it says on one side, every thief will be banished, and according to what it says on the other, everyone who swears falsely will be banished. 4 The Lord Almighty declares, ‘I will send it out, and it will enter the house of the thief and the house of anyone who swears falsely by my name. It will remain in that house and destroy it completely, both its timbers and its stones.’”​

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5 Then the angel who was speaking to me came forward and said to me, “Look up and see what is appearing.”​

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6 I asked, “What is it?”​

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He replied, “It is a basket.” And he added, “This is the iniquity[b] of the people throughout the land.”​

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7 Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman! 8 He said, “This is wickedness,” and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed its lead cover down on it.​

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9 Then I looked up—and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth.​

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10 “Where are they taking the basket?” I asked the angel who was speaking to me.​

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11 He replied, “To the country of Babylonia[c] to build a house for it. When the house is ready, the basket will be set there in its place.”​

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In the context of all of Zechariah, what's going on here? I don't know. But can Baha'is pull out verse 14 out of chapter 4 and say it's a prophecy about the Bab and Baha'u'llah? Again... does it fit the context?​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When did these "greatest" horrors happen?

How about 2 x world wars, genocide of the Jews and other mass genocide events and 2 x atomic bombs.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

How about 2 x world wars, genocide of the Jews and other mass genocide events and 2 x atomic bombs.

Regards Tony

That's exactly what I'm asking. Do the "horrors" happen prior to the coming Messiah or after he is dead and gone? Are there prophecies that support that the end times "Promised One" is going to come, get rejected, die and then, because the world rejected him, all the "horrors" happen?

To me, it seems like the bad stuff happens before the Promised One/Messiah comes. And then the Messiah makes everything right and destroys all the evil people.

Revelation14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads...​

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6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair... 7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come...​

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8 A second angel followed and said, “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’ which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”​

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9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath... 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”​

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15 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. 2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. They held harps given them by God 3 and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb...​

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16 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”​

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2 The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.​

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3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead person, and every living thing in the sea died.​

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4 The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood...​

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8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire...​

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10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness...​

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12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.​

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15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”​

16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.​

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17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!”​

Nothing but bad stuff happens until...

19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.​

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19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.​

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21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”​

All this happens long after the second and third "Woes" that Baha'i say are the Bab and Baha'u'llah. So, what is going on here? What is the Baha'i interpretation?

 

[Muffled]

So, when Gospel is spread around the world, still, Christ may come 1000 years, or 2000 years after that?

Then, what is the point of the verse saying "then"?

I believe it conveys the message that the end comes after the gospel is peached to everyone.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe it conveys the message that the end comes after the gospel is peached to everyone.

Yes, the end of the age was supposed to come after the gospel was preached all over the world and that had happened by the mid-19th century.
That was on of the three promises made by Jesus.

"The millennial zeal reached its climax in the year 1844 because this date in history had been chosen primarily because of three specific promises made by Christ Himself to His disciples. He gave three promises, saying that when these three things came to pass, He (Christ) would return to earth.

The first promise: His Gospel would be preached everywhere on earth.

“But he that shall endure until the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness … then shall the end come.” (Matthew 24:13)

A study of the spread of Christianity made by scholars of the 1840’s, convinced them that the message of Christ had, by their day, already encircled the globe. The Gospel was being taught in all the continents. By 1844 it was being taught even in the interior of Africa, not by solitary missionaries, but on an organized scale. A commercial history of East Africa states: “Christian missions began their activities amongst the African people in 1844. (Year Book and Guide to East Africa, Ed. by Robert Hale Ltd., London, 1953, p. 44)

This was considered by the students of Scripture to be in exact fulfilment of the words of Christ given in Mark:

“And the gospel must first be published among all nations.” (Mark 13:10)

In this same chapter, Christ warns that when this takes place: “Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.” (Mark 13:33)

When this Gospel is published in all nations, Christ again promises:

“… then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.” (Mark 13:26)

The millennial scholars of the 1840s felt that Christ’s first promise had been fulfilled. They felt it had been clearly demonstrated that the Gospel of Christ had been ‘preached in all the world for a witness’ and, therefore, the hour for His coming must now be at hand."
http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I believe it conveys the message that the end comes after the gospel is peached to everyone.

Do you believe that the term "asleep" in the following verse means, physically sleep, or spiritually sleep?

Mark 13:36

"lest he come suddenly and find you asleep."

I mean, why it matters, you be awake when Christ comes? If you dont see Him coming down from sky, and missed the show, then, when you wake up, you know He has come. So, what's the point, Jesus insisted you make sure you are not asleep?

 

[Muffled]

Do you believe that the term "asleep" in the following verse means, physically sleep, or spiritually sleep?

Mark 13:36

"lest he come suddenly and find you asleep."

I mean, why it matters, you be awake when Christ comes? If you dont see Him coming down from sky, and missed the show, then, when you wake up, you know He has come. So, what's the point, Jesus insisted you make sure you are not asleep?

I believe Peter tends to go into less detail Mat. 24:42-51 tells it better. However I don't think it means the person is asleep but only that he is unware ie not watching.

 

[Muffled]

Yes, the end of the age was supposed to come after the gospel was preached all over the world and that had happened by the mid-19th century.
That was on of the three promises made by Jesus.

"The millennial zeal reached its climax in the year 1844 because this date in history had been chosen primarily because of three specific promises made by Christ Himself to His disciples. He gave three promises, saying that when these three things came to pass, He (Christ) would return to earth.

The first promise: His Gospel would be preached everywhere on earth.

“But he that shall endure until the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness … then shall the end come.” (Matthew 24:13)

A study of the spread of Christianity made by scholars of the 1840’s, convinced them that the message of Christ had, by their day, already encircled the globe. The Gospel was being taught in all the continents. By 1844 it was being taught even in the interior of Africa, not by solitary missionaries, but on an organized scale. A commercial history of East Africa states: “Christian missions began their activities amongst the African people in 1844. (Year Book and Guide to East Africa, Ed. by Robert Hale Ltd., London, 1953, p. 44)

This was considered by the students of Scripture to be in exact fulfilment of the words of Christ given in Mark:

“And the gospel must first be published among all nations.” (Mark 13:10)

In this same chapter, Christ warns that when this takes place: “Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.” (Mark 13:33)

When this Gospel is published in all nations, Christ again promises:

“… then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.” (Mark 13:26)

The millennial scholars of the 1840s felt that Christ’s first promise had been fulfilled. They felt it had been clearly demonstrated that the Gospel of Christ had been ‘preached in all the world for a witness’ and, therefore, the hour for His coming must now be at hand."
http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

I believe there were many unreached people still in 1844. I believe the facts are being ignored in order to make things fit what you wish to believe rather than what is true.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe there were many unreached people still in 1844. I believe the facts are being ignored in order to make things fit what you wish to believe rather than what is true.

The issue you will have with your opinion, is that many Christians in the mid 1800's believed that that requirement had been met.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe there were many unreached people still in 1844. I believe the facts are being ignored in order to make things fit what you wish to believe rather than what is true.

I believe the facts are being ignored in order to make things fit what you wish to believe rather than what is true.

“Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (Matthew 24:3)

“But he that shall endure until the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness … then shall the end come.” (Matthew 24:13-14)

This was clear enough. The end would come, and Christ would return, when His Gospel was preached throughout the world.
A study of the spread of Christianity made by scholars of the 1840’s, convinced them that the message of Christ had, by their day, already encircled the globe. The Gospel was being taught in all the continents. By 1844 it was being taught even in the interior of Africa, not by solitary missionaries, but on an organized scale. A commercial history of East Africa states: “Christian missions began their activities amongst the African people in 1844. (Year Book and Guide to East Africa, Ed. by Robert Hale Ltd., London, 1953, p. 44)

In Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer wrote that the Gospel in his day had been spread ‘to ninety-five per cent of the inhabitants of the earth.’ He added: “It was in 1842 that five treaty-ports in China were open to commerce and to missions—advance steps in the opening of all China to the Gospel. In 1844 Turkey was prevailed upon to recognise the right of the Moslems to become Christians, reversing all Moslem tradition. In 1844 Alan Gardiner established the South American Mission. In 1842 Livingstone’s determination was formed to open the African interior.”

There were many additional references which made it clear that the Gospel of Christ, and its teachers, had entered every continent by the year 1844, spreading the Word of Jesus the Christ throughout the world.

This was considered by the students of Scripture to be in exact fulfilment of the words of Christ given in Mark:
“And the gospel must first be published among all nations.” (Mark 13:10)

The millennial scholars of the 1840s felt that Christ’s first promise had been fulfilled. They felt it had been clearly demonstrated that the Gospel of Christ had been ‘preached in all the world for a witness’ and, therefore, the hour for His coming must now be at hand.”

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf