Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, you are the only person who has beat the 1260 day prophecy to death.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Why Jesus did not Rule the first time, but will Rule the second time?
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
If Jesus established the kingdom of God on earth as you claim, then why are Christians waiting for Jesus to return to earth and rule as King?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
A little history about Jerusalem...
In 66 the Jews rebelled against Rome, and in 70 the city was besieged and almost wholly destroyed by the Roman forces under the future emperor Titus. The Temple, Herod’s greatest achievement, was reduced to ashes...
Jews again revolted unsuccessfully against Rome from 132 to 135. Emperor Hadrian decided to plant a Roman city, Aelia Capitolina, on the site...
Christian pilgrims to Jerusalem are not recorded until the 4th century. It was the conversion to Christianity of Constantine I... that made possible the building of the great shrines in Jerusalem...
Christian glorification carried on into the 6th century when, under the emperor Justinian I, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was rebuilt and many other churches... were established. In 614 this golden age was brought to an end by the Persian invasion, in which the inhabitants of Jerusalem were massacred and the churches destroyed.
In 638 the Muslim caliph ʿUmar I entered Jerusalem and, according to Muslim historians, discovered the Temple Mount in utter decay and disrepair. He immediately set about repairing the site, and in 688–691 the fifth Umayyad caliph, ʿAbd al-Malik ibn Marwān, built the Dome of the Rock...
In 969 control of the city passed to the Shiʿi Fatimid caliphs of Egypt... In 1071 the Seljuq Turks defeated the Byzantines at the Battle of Manzikert, displaced the Egyptians as masters of the Holy Land, and cut the pilgrim routes, thus stimulating the Crusades.
The city was recaptured by the Fatimids (1098) a year before the hosts of the First Crusade besieged the city. In 1099 Crusader forces under Godfrey of Bouillon conquered Jerusalem and launched a reign of terror against Muslims and Jews. The Crusader state took its name, the kingdom of Jerusalem, from the city, and the city regained its position as a capital.
The kingdom of Jerusalem lasted from 1099 to 1187, when the city was taken by the renowned Ayyubid sultan Saladin, whose successors ruled from Damascus and Cairo. Jerusalem was again in Christian hands in 1229–39 and 1240–44, when it was sacked by the Khwārezmian Turks.
Anyway, since the time of Jesus, when was Jerusalem not being "trodden" down by "Gentiles"?Here's says about this Abdul Baha'...
“But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles.” When, in the beginning of the seventh century of the Christian era, Jerusalem was conquered, the Holy of Holies—that is, the edifice that Solomon had erected—was outwardly preserved, but its outer court was seized and given over to the Gentiles.
5“And the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months”; that is, the Gentiles will seize and subdue Jerusalem for forty-two months, or 1,260 days, or—each day being equivalent to a year—1,260 years, which is the duration of the Qur’anic Dispensation. For according to the text of the Bible each day is a year, as it is said in Ezekiel 4:6: “thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year”.
6This is a prophecy concerning the duration of the Dispensation of Islam, when Jerusalem was trodden underfoot, meaning that it was dishonoured, while the Holy of Holies remained preserved, guarded, and honoured. This state of affairs continued until the year 1260. This 1,260 years is a prophecy concerning the advent of the Báb, the “Gate” leading to Bahá’u’lláh, which took place in the year A.H. 1260.
Jerusalem was not "given" over to the Gentiles and "trodden" in 622AD, the start of the Islamic Calendar. Jerusalem wasn't conquered by the Islamic forces until 638AD. So again, it's remarkable that the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar is 1844. But not one of the events described in the book of Revelation started in 622AD and stopped in 1844.
But... Does any of that matter to Baha'is? The ones that say to "investigate" the truth on their own to see if the Baha'i Faith is correct in what they claim.
Yeshua warned of coming false prophets in Matthew 24:11, and so has it been. Ezekiel 13 reads "My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions, and they will have no voice in the council of My people. As for entering into the "land of Israel", the "land of Israel" didn't exist until 1948, years after the appearance of Muhammad and Baha, and they had no voice in the "council of My people"/Israel. The land of Israel has yet to be recognized by many nations, mostly from the Muslim world. International recognition of Israel - Wikipedia
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Why would the events described in the book of Revelation start and stop in 1844? 1844 was the date of the declaration of the Bab, who cane to announce the coming of Bahaullah. . Baha'u'llah did not receive His revelation until nine years later, in 1853, and Baha'ullah did not declare His mission until 1863. The book of Revelation is about the return of Christ, not about the person who came to announce His coming.
The Old Testament clearly prophesied Twin Holy messengers that will come in succession. Anyone who knows the Bible can do the math if they are really interested in knowing who the Messiah was. Here are just a few prophecies and there are so many more:
“Zechariah, speaking of the last days, prophesied of the twin holy souls who would appear, saying: “Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.”(Zechariah 4:14). In addition to the two ‘woes’, Revelation speaks of the ‘two olive trees’ and the ‘two candlesticks’. Malachi, speaking of the time of the end, prophesied:“Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” (Malachi 4:5). This was the very land, Persia, in which Daniel beheld.”… one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven…” (Daniel 7:13).
The Báb foretold that this great Redeemer would appear exactly nine years after his own coming. He would, therefore, as prophesied in the Old Testament, ‘suddenly come to his temple’. He would thus come just as Christ had so often emphasized in the Book of Revelation: “Behold I come quickly.”
Malachi, who called it the great and dreadful day of the Lord, foretold the appearance of two at the time of the end, saying:“Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple …” (Malachi 3:1). The Báb repeatedly said that he was the Dawn, but that the Promise of all Ages Who was soon to come after him would be the Sun. He foretold that this great world Saviour would usher in an age of unprecedented progress and peace.” Thief in the Night, pp. 93-94
Baha’u’llah became aware of His revelation from God in 1853, in the Black Pit prison, exactly nine years after the Bab foretold the great Redeemer would appear.
The Bab was a Manifestation of God (Messenger) in His own right, so He was the first resurrection. He referred to the revelation of Baha’u’llah as the Latter Resurrection, and granted the Babis a respite of 19 years to be able to recognize Baha’u’llah, because the Bab knew that Baha’u’llah would publicly declare His Mission in 1863. That is written in the second paragraph of Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 6-7.
“This is a letter from God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting, unto God, the Almighty, the Best Beloved, to affirm that the Bayán and such as bear allegiance to it are but a present from me unto Thee and to express my undoubting faith that there is no God but Thee, that the kingdoms of Creation and Revelation are Thine, that no one can attain anything save by Thy power and that He Whom Thou hast raised up is but Thy servant and Thy Testimony. I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: ‘Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, pp. 6-7
Bahá'u'lláh claimed that his mission as the Promised One of the Báb, was revealed to Him in 1853 while imprisoned in the Síyáh-Chál in Tehran, Iran.[4] After his release from the Síyáh-Chál, Bahá'u'lláh was banished from Persia, and he settled in Baghdad, which became the centre of Bábí activity. Although he did not openly declare this prophetic mandate, he increasingly became the leader of the Bábí community.
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridvan
The Bab granted the Babis a respite of 19 years to recognize Baha'u'llah, so He gave them until 1863 , which is the date that Baha'u'llah publicly declared His mission from God in the Garden of Ridvan.
The Garden of Ridván (literally garden of paradise) or Najibiyyih Garden[1] was a wooded garden in what is now Baghdad's Rusafa District, on the banks of the Tigris river. It is notable as the location where Baháʼu'lláh, founder of the Baháʼí Faith, stayed for twelve days from April 21 to May 2, 1863, after the Ottoman Empire exiled him from Baghdad and before commencing his journey to Constantinople. During his stay in this garden, Baháʼu'lláh announced to his followers that he was the messianic figure of He whom God shall make manifest, whose coming had been foretold by the Báb. These events are celebrated annually during the Festival of Ridván.[1]
Garden of Ridván, Baghdad - Wikipedia
Anyone who really investigates the truth will discover that the numbers all add up perfectly.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus warned about the coming of false prophets because He knew that many false prophets would come and fool many people.
There have been many false prophets, but that does not mean that there were not true prophets who came after Jesus.
The fact that there have been many false prophets says nothing about Baha’u’llah... That does not mean that Baha’u’llah was a false prophet.
If you assume that Baha'u'llah was a false prophet based upon insufficient evidence you are committing the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization.
Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables.
Hasty generalization - Wikipedia
Hasty generalization usually shows this pattern:
- prophet a represented a false prophet
- prophet b represented a false prophet
- prophet c represented a false prophet
- prophet d represented an a false prophet
I can guarantee that none of those false prophets did what Baha’u’llah did, wrote what He wrote, or fulfilled all the prophecies that He fulfilled for the return of Christ, or established a thriving world religion.
Your use of "thriving world religion" is a bit optimistic. The Bahas are outnumbered by the people in New York City alone. The false prophets will declare peace, when there is no peace. (Ezekiel 13:10). Baha says an ideal society is being built by his religion. Never happened. Yeshua said world judgment was coming, and in waves, it has happened and is happening. (Revelation)
I have explained in other posts CG that the 1260 is not and individual event timeline, every time it is mentioned, it is reference to the year AH1260 as that is the year when Islam was Abrogated by God by the dawn of a New Day of God.
The date does not have to fit in exactly to lengths of individual events, it is fulfilled in the year AH1260.
Regards Tony
The issue we have is wanting promisses fulfilled in our lifetime, but God's days are 1000 years, and the prophecies unfold over decades and centuries.
The false prophets will not be allowed into the Land of Isreal, the true Prophets will be. Ezekiel 13:9.
Baha'u'llah taught and has brought peace, the Baha'i live it, numbers are temporary, as Jesus alao did not have a significant amount of followers for a few hundred years. It is a world religion, so no optimism needed. It is known as the 2nd most widespread religion only behind Christianity in its geographical establishment.
Baháʼí Faith by country - Wikipedia
Regards Tony
Sorry, I don't think Paul is a false prophet. But, I think he is often misunderstood.
They may have many reasons. My reason to wait is that he promised to come back.
The doors to the process actually started in the year AH1260 or AD1844, before Baha'u'llah was exiled to the Holy Land.
It started with the "Edict of Toleration" which basically allowed the Jews ro return unhindered. It is remarkable that the door opened in the same year the Messiah was prophesied to return.
Edict of Toleration (1844) - Wikipedia
Regards Tony
I agree. Jesus came "when the fulness of the time was come” - and will come in the same manner at the end. There are, as you said, manny reasons.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Show me any verses where Jesus promised to come back.
Please note "you shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds" is not Jesus saying that He will come back.
Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
How do you explain the following verses?
John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
He didn't listen to the words believe it not.
Matthew 24:3.
Most certainly a false prophet.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Sorry, it don't work for me. If I say something is going to happen and then last 42 months or 1260 days. That thing has a starting time. When was the Holy City trodden down by the Gentiles? It has to have a day when that first happened. Then from that day, 42 months later, it stopped.
The Hegira, the start of the Islamic calendar has nothing to do with the Holy City being "trodden" down. But even in 1844, did "Gentiles" lose control of the "Holy City"? Which I assume is Jerusalem. Do Baha'is even agree that it is Jerusalem? Or is it the symbolic Jerusalem, the abode of peace?
But then you have the Two Witnesses prophesy for 1260 days then they get killed, and their dead bodies are in the street for 3 1/2 days that get converted to 3 1/2 years, which equals 1260 days... Then these 1260 days are converted to be the 1260 lunar years of the Islamic calendar that end in 1844.
How does that work? Muhammad and Ali prophesy from the Hegira to 1844. Then they are killed and are in the street starting from the Hegira to 1844?
Then in the next chapter a woman gives birth to a son and in Revelation 12:6 it says, "The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."
What is this talking about? I know Abdul Baha' talks about this. What does he say this is about? Either way, it also starts with the Hegira and ends in 1844?
After that the dragon that was pursuing the woman gave its power and authority to a beast. In Rev. 13:5 it says, "The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months."
This forty-two months is converted to be 1260 years and again... starts with the Hegira and ends in 1844.
Nut-so to me, but I'm sure it makes perfect sense to you and other Baha'is.
I see you can not see the Forrest for the Trees.
No matter the start, no matter the details the prophecies did last to the year 1260 of Islam, plain and simple. There is no greater prophesy to be found for any of God's Messengers as a year was given, Ah1260, or AD1844. The Gate was opened.
Also consider that it is recorded that no one will know the Day or Hour, but amazingly God did not say we will not know the year. The year was predicted by people from both Christianity and Islam, as AD 1844 is the same year as AH 1260. Unfortunately Christians were looking for a flesh jesus to arrive on a cloud. One branch of Islam knew what they were looking for and persons from thay branch dedicated themselves to that search and One was to be the person that first opened the Gate, that required a total of 19 to find before we could all walk through, to be enabled to recognize the "One Whom God Would Make Manifest".
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
As if during the time of Jesus, before the time of Jesus, or after the time of Jesus, there has never been a "false" prophet.
Again, it's amazing what people can do when they quote mine the Bible. This one verse is supposed to be "proof" that Muhammad is not a false prophet?
Now one thing I know is true is what it says in Mark 16... We will be able to handle snakes and drink poison and not be harmed. And naturally, the reason I know it's true is because it says so in the Scriptures.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
What kind of "forest" and "trees" are you talking about? The events had a starting date. Was it 622AD? No. Not one of them. But, for Baha'is, they all had an ending date, I260 in the Islamic calendar.
But Baha'is keep laying it on. Was 666AD the year the Umayyad's got control of Islam? No, it was 661AD.
So, what do Baha'is do? They add five years to that, because they say Jesus wasn't born in the year "zero". Great, but Baha's also keep switching from the lunar years of the Islamic calendar to the solar years of the Gregorian calendar. And on top of that Baha'is make the Umayyad's the Beast power. Did they start in 622AD and last until 1844? No.
So, call it "forests" and "trees" if you want, but I just don't agree with the math and the interpretations.
I'd expect nothing less than for you to believe them completely and believe that I'm wrong in my thinking.