Why Jesus did not Rule the first time, but will Rule the second time?

[jac]

Since these are black and white answerable questions they rely on peoples opinions.

1) He did not come to rule the 1st time but to set up his "earthly kingdom" the church through which all could be saved. He will rule the second time because this is when his final "spiritual kingdom" is established.

2) Because a kingdom needs a king.

 

[Trailblazer]

1) He did not come to rule the 1st time but to set up his "earthly kingdom" the church through which all could be saved. He will rule the second time because this is when his final "spiritual kingdom" is established.

2) Because a kingdom needs a king.

I know this is what Christians believe but it has no basis in the Bible.
There will be no second coming of the same man Jesus according to Jesus.

Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. That means that the return of Christ has to be another Person.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus never claimed to be a king, and Jesus never said He was coming back to judge the earth and establish an earthly Kingdom

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

 

[paarsurrey]

Why Jesus did not Rule the first time, but will Rule the second time?

(Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah has got nothing to do with the worldly rule in his First Coming as well as in his Second Coming, both Comings are to rule on the hearts of the people for spiritual reformation, please.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Why Jesus did not Rule the first time, but will Rule the second time?

(Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah has got nothing to do with the worldly rule in his First Coming as well as in his Second Coming, both Comings are to rule on the hearts of the people for spiritual reformation, please.
I quote here 3 couplets in Urdu* from Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 , The Second Coming/Imam-Mahdi in this connection:
(English Translation)
What need have I for lands?
My land is apart from others’.

What do I do with crowns?
My crown is the Dear’s joy!

We dwell in the skies;
what do we need this earth for?

What enmity do the sky dwellers have with the earth?
There is nothing like the monarchy of the spiritual world
Though many a rich and crowned have lived on the earth.

Regards
____________
* Urdu original
مجھ کو کیا ملکوں سے میرا مُلک ہے سب سے جُدا

مجھ کو کیا تاجوں سے میرا تاج ہے رضوانِ یار

ہم تو بستے ہیں فلک پر اِس زمیں کو کیا کریں

آسماں کے رہنے والوں کو زمیں سے کیا نِقار

مُلکِ روحانی کی شاہی کی نہیں کوئی نظیر

گو بہت دُنیا میں گذرے ہیں امیر و تاجدار

Books – جماعت احمدیہ مسلمہ عالمگیر

 

[Muffled]

The issue you will have with your opinion, is that many Christians in the mid 1800's believed that that requirement had been met.

Regards Tony

I believe there was no battle of Armageddon so they were wrong.

 

[Muffled]

Why Jesus did not Rule the first time, but will Rule the second time?

(Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah has got nothing to do with the worldly rule in his First Coming as well as in his Second Coming, both Comings are to rule on the hearts of the people for spiritual reformation, please.

Regards

I believe there is the spiritual Kingdom of God, which I am in, and a physical Kingdom of God that Jesus rules starting with the Millenium.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe there was no battle of Armageddon so they were wrong.

Some Christians saw battles in the Holy Land at the closed of world war one as fulfilling that prophecy. General Allenby was one of those. That is worth a research.

"Allenby launched the Third Battle of Gaza on 1st November 1917. After an impressive victory at Beersheba involving a cavalry attack, his forces moved on to Jerusalem. The initial offensive in mid-November stalled but a renewed attack on 7th December proved successful against a demoralised and weary Ottoman army"

The taking of Jerusalem was miraculous and General Allen had prayed about it.

"The Ottoman forces in the city surrendered and the Mayor of Jerusalem, Hussein Salim al-Husseini offered the keys of the city to the British Forces."

Interestingly and most amazingly how God works in Mysterious ways, those battles introduced General Allenby to the Baha'i Faith, as General Allenby had been given an instruction by the British command to "Save Abdul'baha". He subsequently also took Haifa and Akka also miraculously. Abdul'baha eventually given a Knighthood by the British Empire.

See the book The Servant, the General and Armageddon

"..General Allenby had been given special instructions to ensure the safety of The Master, although he may well not have known Who this person might actually be. A force of Indian lancers was given special instructions to reach Haifa and protect 'Abdu'l-Bahá. It is believed that the arrival of this light cavalry may represent the only case of cavalry taking a fortified town at the gallop! They quickly established where 'Abdu'l-Bahá lived, and threw a cordon around his house.

When General Allenby himself reached Haifa, he sought out this person he had been detailed to protect, and was much impressed! During his discussion with the Master, he revealed that he had covered so much ground so fast that he had outrun his supply lines, and had no food for his men. 'Abdu'l-Bahá replied that He had enough food for the army! For some years, 'Abdu'l-Bahá had been instructing Bahá'í farmers who had settled in Galilee, and also Druze farmers in the region, to grow extra food which He had put into storage. From these stores He had been feeding the population of Akká during the war years, and still had enough for the British army!!.."

Regards Tony

 

[Muffled]

Some Christians saw battles in the Holy Land at the closed of world war one as fulfilling that prophecy. General Allenby was one of those. That is worth a research.

"Allenby launched the Third Battle of Gaza on 1st November 1917. After an impressive victory at Beersheba involving a cavalry attack, his forces moved on to Jerusalem. The initial offensive in mid-November stalled but a renewed attack on 7th December proved successful against a demoralised and weary Ottoman army"

The taking of Jerusalem was miraculous and General Allen had prayed about it.

"The Ottoman forces in the city surrendered and the Mayor of Jerusalem, Hussein Salim al-Husseini offered the keys of the city to the British Forces."

Interestingly and most amazingly how God works in Mysterious ways, those battles introduced General Allenby to the Baha'i Faith, as General Allenby had been given an instruction by the British command to "Save Abdul'baha". He subsequently also took Haifa and Akka also miraculously. Abdul'baha eventually given a Knighthood by the British Empire.

See the book The Servant, the General and Armageddon

"..General Allenby had been given special instructions to ensure the safety of The Master, although he may well not have known Who this person might actually be. A force of Indian lancers was given special instructions to reach Haifa and protect 'Abdu'l-Bahá. It is believed that the arrival of this light cavalry may represent the only case of cavalry taking a fortified town at the gallop! They quickly established where 'Abdu'l-Bahá lived, and threw a cordon around his house.

When General Allenby himself reached Haifa, he sought out this person he had been detailed to protect, and was much impressed! During his discussion with the Master, he revealed that he had covered so much ground so fast that he had outrun his supply lines, and had no food for his men. 'Abdu'l-Bahá replied that He had enough food for the army! For some years, 'Abdu'l-Bahá had been instructing Bahá'í farmers who had settled in Galilee, and also Druze farmers in the region, to grow extra food which He had put into storage. From these stores He had been feeding the population of Akká during the war years, and still had enough for the British army!!.."

Regards Tony

So where was Jesus in the sky for all to see at that time?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So where was Jesus in the sky for all to see at that time?

Jesus was to come on clouds. This is metephor not a fictitious cloud riding Jesus. Consider if a material happening, Jesus would have to ride many clouds all around the world over many cities towns and villages all over a 24 hour period.

It is an illogical way to see this event will happen.

Clouds stop humanity seeing the sun, so this metephor is telling us that when Jesus comes, that the event will not be obvious.

Jesus will also foretold to come as a thief in the night.

Already in history Christians expecting this material fulfillment have sold everything and stood on the hills awaiting this event, an event that will never happen with God's Annointed One. At least those that expected this event in 1844, who stood on the hills, did do it in the right year.

There is much that can be discussed, that is a good place to start.

Regards Tony

 

[Muffled]

Jesus was to come on clouds. This is metephor not a fictitious cloud riding Jesus. Consider if a material happening, Jesus would have to ride many clouds all around the world over many cities towns and villages all over a 24 hour period.

It is an illogical way to see this event will happen.

Clouds stop humanity seeing the sun, so this metephor is telling us that when Jesus comes, that the event will not be obvious.

Jesus will also foretold to come as a thief in the night.

Already in history Christians expecting this material fulfillment have sold everything and stood on the hills awaiting this event, an event that will never happen with God's Annointed One. At least those that expected this event in 1844, who stood on the hills, did do it in the right year.

There is much that can be discussed, that is a good place to start.

Regards Tony

How can yo tell it is a metaphor? What rule of thumb do you use or is it simply a ruse to disbelieve what Jesus said.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How can yo tell it is a metaphor? What rule of thumb do you use or is it simply a ruse to disbelieve what Jesus said.

Science and plain common sense that what Jesus said was meant as metaphor.

Spoiler: Intelligible Realities expressed by Sensible Forms

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

A collection of transcriptions of table talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1906 in response to questions posed by Laura Dreyfus-Barney, an American Bahá’í resident in Paris, and first published in 1908. The new edition, extensively retranslated, was published in 2014.

www.bahai.org

Clouds do not descend, they rise as vapor that veil the sun so the light does not shine.

Makes sense that is a metephor that Christ would return when the dark clouds of disbelief, of waywardness, of lawlessness have risen, initiating and obscuring Christ's rerurn. This makes sense, as this is the way God has always given a Messenger. A man like us, one Annointed by God, stands in front of humanity and says "I Am, I Am, I Am".

The passage that Christ will also comes like a "Thief in the night", also make much more sense, as that is how the Prophets have always come. They give their Message, ascend to their throne and then humanity wakes up to find a few souls have stolen the glory of faith they thought they owned.

Regards Tony

 

[Muffled]

Science and plain common sense that what Jesus said was meant as metaphor.

Spoiler: Intelligible Realities expressed by Sensible Forms

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

A collection of transcriptions of table talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1906 in response to questions posed by Laura Dreyfus-Barney, an American Bahá’í resident in Paris, and first published in 1908. The new edition, extensively retranslated, was published in 2014.

www.bahai.org

Clouds do not descend, they rise as vapor that veil the sun so the light does not shine.

Makes sense that is a metephor that Christ would return when the dark clouds of disbelief, of waywardness, of lawlessness have risen, initiating and obscuring Christ's rerurn. This makes sense, as this is the way God has always given a Messenger. A man like us, one Annointed by God, stands in front of humanity and says "I Am, I Am, I Am".

The passage that Christ will also comes like a "Thief in the night", also make much more sense, as that is how the Prophets have always come. They give their Message, ascend to their throne and then humanity wakes up to find a few souls have stolen the glory of faith they thought they owned.

Regards Tony

I believe that goes for normal clouds but Jesus does not have to do what is natural since He is supernatural.

I believe that isn't metaphor but is fantasy. It certainly isn't common sense. I believe it is an unfounded attribution.

I believe that is false since there is not a set way for God to send messengers.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe that goes for normal clouds but Jesus does not have to do what is natural since He is supernatural.

I believe that isn't metaphor but is fantasy. It certainly isn't common sense. I believe it is an unfounded attribution.

I believe that is false since there is not a set way for God to send messengers.

We are also no longer children expecting magic shows that defy intelligent science.

God has always sent his Messengers by a person born naturally into this world, from the Womb of a mother. God does not change this way, as it is how humans are born.

Humans also die and return to the earth.

The key is, the Holy Spirit that is eternal is the true Essence of the Messengers, who are also born of the Human Spirit.

The rest of us, born of the Human Spirit, not Annointed of the Holy Spirit, must be born again into that Spirit, which is the First Messenger, the Last Messenger and all the Messengers in between.

Plain and simple, humans have one life only to know and Love God of their own free will.

All the best Muffled.

Regards Tony

 

[Balthazzar]

Two simple questions;

1. Why Jesus did not Rule the first time, but will Rule the second time?

2. What is the purpose of Jesus's Ruling?

In order for mankind to navigate life effectively, we need an appropriate compass. An old world compass for sea travel was needed in order to navigate the seas effectively. A similar principle applies to the second time, and this second is about truth and living through it, specifically. We're still learning how to discern between truth and error, so it may take a while before it's natural to us and viewed as beneficial...truth and an honest spirit, I mean.

I wonder how long it might take for this to simply be an accepted and very natural human trait? How many ages have we lived upon the earth? We have yet to grasp this premise. That or we have far too much to hide from to consider it to be valid, which is also understandable. My guess is this will take a while longer than we might like.

 

[Muffled]

Some Christians saw battles in the Holy Land at the closed of world war one as fulfilling that prophecy. General Allenby was one of those. That is worth a research.

"Allenby launched the Third Battle of Gaza on 1st November 1917. After an impressive victory at Beersheba involving a cavalry attack, his forces moved on to Jerusalem. The initial offensive in mid-November stalled but a renewed attack on 7th December proved successful against a demoralised and weary Ottoman army"

The taking of Jerusalem was miraculous and General Allen had prayed about it.

"The Ottoman forces in the city surrendered and the Mayor of Jerusalem, Hussein Salim al-Husseini offered the keys of the city to the British Forces."

Interestingly and most amazingly how God works in Mysterious ways, those battles introduced General Allenby to the Baha'i Faith, as General Allenby had been given an instruction by the British command to "Save Abdul'baha". He subsequently also took Haifa and Akka also miraculously. Abdul'baha eventually given a Knighthood by the British Empire.

See the book The Servant, the General and Armageddon

"..General Allenby had been given special instructions to ensure the safety of The Master, although he may well not have known Who this person might actually be. A force of Indian lancers was given special instructions to reach Haifa and protect 'Abdu'l-Bahá. It is believed that the arrival of this light cavalry may represent the only case of cavalry taking a fortified town at the gallop! They quickly established where 'Abdu'l-Bahá lived, and threw a cordon around his house.

When General Allenby himself reached Haifa, he sought out this person he had been detailed to protect, and was much impressed! During his discussion with the Master, he revealed that he had covered so much ground so fast that he had outrun his supply lines, and had no food for his men. 'Abdu'l-Bahá replied that He had enough food for the army! For some years, 'Abdu'l-Bahá had been instructing Bahá'í farmers who had settled in Galilee, and also Druze farmers in the region, to grow extra food which He had put into storage. From these stores He had been feeding the population of Akká during the war years, and still had enough for the British army!!.."

Regards Tony

I believe Israel has had many battles but there will only be one where the whole world is arrayed against her. WWI was not that.

 

[Muffled]

We are also no longer children expecting magic shows that defy intelligent science.

God has always sent his Messengers by a person born naturally into this world, from the Womb of a mother. God does not change this way, as it is how humans are born.

Humans also die and return to the earth.

The key is, the Holy Spirit that is eternal is the true Essence of the Messengers, who are also born of the Human Spirit.

The rest of us, born of the Human Spirit, not Annointed of the Holy Spirit, must be born again into that Spirit, which is the First Messenger, the Last Messenger and all the Messengers in between.

Plain and simple, humans have one life only to know and Love God of their own free will.

All the best Muffled.

Regards Tony

I believe you should speak for yourself. Christians are encouraged to become like chidren to enter into the Kingdom of God.

I believe angels bring messages. Not to mention donkeys.

I believe that is false. The only one a person can be born into is the Paraclete.

I believe that is false. The Bible supports multiple lives.

 

[CG Didymus]

Science and plain common sense that what Jesus said was meant as metaphor.

We are also no longer children expecting magic shows that defy intelligent science.

God has always sent his Messengers by a person born naturally into this world, from the Womb of a mother. God does not change this way, as it is how humans are born.

Humans also die and return to the earth.

Oh my God! Then why do Baha'is believe in the virgin birth? Is that "normal" to have no need of a father? Where'd the second set of genes come from?

Why isn't that story also a metaphor or a fabrication? Since it was only told in two of the Gospel stories, and they both differed, and were told by men who weren't eyewitnesses?

Then TB still going with her verses from the Gospel of John? Why are those literal and not where John says that the "Word" was God and became flesh and that Jesus walked on water and raised Lazarus from the dead? How are Baha'is going to take those verses? Any of them literal?

If not, then Baha'is are picking and choosing what they want to be symbolic and what they want to be literal.

Oh... and TB says that "context" is everything... When do Baha'is go by context? I'm still waiting for a Baha'i to show me how the context of what happens during the second and third "Woe" has anything to do with the Bab and Baha'u'llah?

And might as well explain why the World Wars happen after the "Messiah" has come and gone? I do believe there are verses that have the tribulations happen before Jesus comes, so can you show those verses that have the tribulations after he comes?

Anyway, see you on those other threads.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh... and TB says that "context" is everything... When do Baha'is go by context? I'm still waiting for a Baha'i to show me how the context of what happens during the second and third "Woe" has anything to do with the Bab and Baha'u'llah?

What happened is already history and can be weighed against the prophecies and what was offered by Baha'u'llah in relation to those prophecies.

If it is of interest, I suggest research is needed.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

What happened is already history and can be weighed against the prophecies and what was offered by Baha'u'llah in relation to those prophecies.

If it is of interest, I suggest research is needed.

Regards Tony

Yes, so we know what happened in history, and we know what the prophecies say about what happens during the second and third "Woes". Can Baha'is make it fit?

 

[danieldemol]

Ezekiel 13 verse 9 states that no false Prophets can enter the land of Israel.

As Muhammad entered and is established in the land of Israel, Muhammad is a true Messenger, thus we know God is Lord.

Regards Tony

This poses a couple of problems for you Tony.
1. Baha'u'llah did not enter Israel as it was the Ottoman empire at the time, the state of Israel did not exist.
2. False prophets are such a common occurrence in Israel they have a name for it, I refer you to the Wikipedia article on Jerusalem Syndrome;

Jerusalem syndrome - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org