Why Jesus must be the Messiah

[Ebionite]

Jesus was not the Messiah and we know that from the undisputed experts on the Messiah - the Jews of the OT. Jewish eschatology did not even have a Messiah concept until some 200 years before Jesus became just another Messiah wannabe - who were legion in the 1st century middle east. But what they do tell us about the attributes of the Messiah is notable by what they do not include:

A virgin birth
A crucifixion
A resurrection
A birth in Bethlehem
Any divine attributes - the Messiah is to be fully man, fully human

These facts have been known for millennia now. And yet the lies of the gospel authors in inventing their own pseudo-Messiah are ignored by the adherents to this now multi trillion dollar scam.

The Messiah - Key beliefs in Judaism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize

Learn about and revise key Jewish beliefs with BBC Bitesize Religious Studies - AQA.

www.bbc.co.uk

That can't explain why astrologers ("wise men") would travel to Bethlehem to honour him.

Matthew reports that the Star tells the astrologers about the date, place, character, and future of the birth of a child. That is, the Star tells the astrologers about the birth of a very great king to be born in Judea on some date, and that is exactly what a natal horoscope gives. It seems to be past coincidence that the Star in Matthew tells the ancient astrologers exactly what a natal horoscope tells to ancient astrologers

Astronomical and Historical Evaluation of Molnar's Solution, Bradley E. Schaefer Link

 

[Firenze]

That can't explain why astrologers ("wise men") would travel to Bethlehem to honour him.

Matthew reports that the Star tells the astrologers about the date, place, character, and future of the birth of a child. That is, the Star tells the astrologers about the birth of a very great king to be born in Judea on some date, and that is exactly what a natal horoscope gives. It seems to be past coincidence that the Star in Matthew tells the ancient astrologers exactly what a natal horoscope tells to ancient astrologers

Astronomical and Historical Evaluation of Molnar's Solution, Bradley E. Schaefer Link

It doesn't need to explain a myth written by the gospel authors after the fact.

 

[Ebionite]

It doesn't need to explain a myth written by the gospel authors after the fact.

Molnar's solution isn't a myth. It relates to the Star Prophecy, which definitely wasn't written after the fact.

I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
Numbers 24:17

 

[Firenze]

Molnar's solution isn't a myth. It relates to the Star Prophecy, which definitely wasn't written after the fact.

I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
Numbers 24:17

That verse is not Messianic. We know this by listening to those pesky experts on the Messiah - the Jews. Again, they listed for us the attributes of the Messiah long ago. Bethlehem and wise men are nowhere to be found in their eschatology.

 

[Ebionite]

That verse is not Messianic. We know this by listening to those pesky experts on the Messiah - the Jews. Again, they listed for us the attributes of the Messiah long ago. Bethlehem and wise men are nowhere to be found in their eschatology.

It's Messianic because of the sceptre, which relates to the mazal of Molnar's king. Rabinnical Judaism is the theological descendant of the Pharisaism which attempted to take the life of the Messiah, so they're not going to acknowledge his pedigree from the prophets.

Not a king at that time, but a prince:

Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel 9:25

 

[Firenze]

It's Messianic because of the sceptre, which relates to the mazal of Molnar's king. Rabinnical Judaism is the theological descendant of the Pharisaism which attempted to take the life of the Messiah, so they're not going to acknowledge his pedigree from the prophets.

Not a king at that time, but a prince:

Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel 9:25

Rome took the life of Jesus. The Jews rejected him because - again - he did not meet the criteria set for the Messiah. The lies told by the gospel authors are clear. They willfully pretended that a virgin birth was an attribute. They did this because they knew their marks - Roman pagans - were familiar with virgin birth for their pantheon of gods. Unfortunately, the verse they chose to 'prove' this is neither Messianic nor a prophesy of a virgin birth.

 

[Ebionite]

Rome took the life of Jesus.

No, they failed. The prophetic texts relating to the crucifixion are clear about that.

 

[Firenze]

No, they failed. The prophetic texts relating to the crucifixion are clear about that.

There are no Messianic texts regarding a crucifixion. We know this by asking the experts - again. What we have are wild leaps by the gospel authors to create a story that doesn't exist in the OT - the resurrection myth being one of the least cogent.

 

[Ebionite]

There are no Messianic texts regarding a crucifixion.

Wrong, the text falls out from a comparison of verses from Acts and John:

Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Acts 1:16,20

-> Psalm 69, 109

But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 15:25-26

-> Psalm 35, 69, 109

Psalm 35 is about the Messiah.

https://hosea6.tech/pages/twin.html#s17

 

[paarsurrey]

Jesus didn't leave any writings at all.

• #258

Regards

 

[Firenze]

Wrong, the text falls out from a comparison of verses from Acts and John:

Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Acts 1:16,20

-> Psalm 69, 109

But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 15:25-26

-> Psalm 35, 69, 109

Psalm 35 is about the Messiah.

https://hosea6.tech/pages/twin.html#s17

I can either let Christians tell me what OT verses are Messianic, or I can listen to the undisputed experts on the subject. I choose the experts. I understand that you reject the experts. The early church succeeded in demonizing those nasty Pharisees - thereby in one fell swoop rejecting all of Judaic eschatology on the Messiah to replace it with this invented, self serving fable of virgin births and resurrections and the bizarre need for blood sacrifice. And what has been the historical result of painting those nasty Jews as the ones who killed Jesus and presumably don't know their own scripture? 6 million exterminated? Christianity has much to answer for. But I doubt the church will find the integrity to do so, being tickled to death by the profit from this now multi trillion dollar 3 card Monty.

 

[Ebionite]

I can either let Christians tell me what OT verses are Messianic, or I can listen to the undisputed experts on the subject.

Your logical fallacy is appeal to authority

You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

 

[Firenze]

Your logical fallacy is appeal to authority

You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true.

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

You would benefit from studying the fallacy you claim. It's only a fallacy when you appeal to something OTHER than an actual authority. If you tell me nephrologists advised you that you needed your kidney removed - would it be a fallacy to heed their expert advice? Should you appeal to cardiologists instead? The Jews are the undisputed authorities ..... on the book they wrote. Disaffected 1st century Jews that were desperate for a Messiah are not. But again, Christianity has completely ignored the OT experts ever since they created their own religion, glomming off of the OT to pretend to buy credibility for their new religion. It was a transparent ploy.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

BUT the Jews have NEVER questioned the Davidic lineage of Jesus

Given how much sex David had, being his descendant isn’t the flex you think it is.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Over time, John the Baptist was heralding the soon public appearance of the Messiah

Big deal. Someone claiming the messiah is or will be coming happens multiple times a day.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Jews and non-believing Bible scholars have never come to understand why the Messiah had to first come as a human to announce his future kingdom, and then receive it with full rights (Is. 53).

I prefer Gods who can get it right the first time.

 

[Ebionite]

You would benefit from studying the fallacy you claim. It's only a fallacy when you appeal to something OTHER than an actual authority.

Wrong. From the page I linked to:

However, it is entirely possible that the opinion of a person or institution of authority is wrong; therefore the authority that such a person or institution holds does not have any intrinsic bearing upon whether their claims are true or not.

 

[Ebionite]

I prefer Gods who can get it right the first time.

Maybe getting it right involves showing humans their error.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

They did not accept him because if they recognized him as Messiah, their religious leadership would end. Many ordinary Jews DID accept Jesus as Messiah in the first century.

Pretty sure that’s what would happen if he showed up now. Christian clergy would denounce him because they would lose their power.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Ask yourself: If a Jew not recognized by the current Jewish leadership were to present himself today as the legal heir to the throne of David, do you think the current Jewish leaders would recognize him and accept his messiahship? The answer is simple: THEY WOULD NOT, exactly the same as they did not in the first century AND FOR THE SAME REASONS

Shouldn’t it be based on merit instead of a quirk of genetics?