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why jews refuse jesus and Mohamed

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Thank you for the link,but no one of them succeed to have followers similar to Jesus,
which also show us it is not an easy job to be a false prophet if not realy supported by god,
Just my opinion.:)

Thats a biased POV. The only reason people still speak of Jesus is because "his" movement went to the non jews. If they wouldnt have done that "his" movement would have died off like the other movements before and after him.

And why is that? Because there is no evidence for him or any other false moshiach being the real one.
His death being the ultimate evidence against the claim of his followers.

Also the spread of christianity had nothing to do with any help from any kind of God if you consider how many people unwilling to convert and abandon their faith had to die.




So you mean there is no evidence or reason to refuse Jesus and Mohammad.

PicardDoubleFacepalm-1.jpg
 
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sumaidi

ashabul yamin
jews too arrogant because god creates them ( israel) as the best race all over the word. mohammed was come from out of their race. but over our thinking, god mentioned / has predicted this on NT and quran.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Who prophesied that the messiah should be a king,let us assume that virgin Mary was
lying,then why her son should believe such a lie and sacrifice to pass the message of god
with many followers worlwide believing him,christians and muslims which means 50% of our
world believe on Jesus,some as prophet,and others as son of god.

At the time of Jesus' life, there were hundreds of guys running around ancient Israel claiming to be the messiah. The only reason that Jesus' followers' movement is still around is because the apostate Paul and his followers turned it from a messianic and apocalyptic Jewish movement into a new religion, distinct from Judaism, for non-Jews, and then eventually managed to convert the Roman Emperor and his family, thus combining the authority of the new religion with the compelling power of the state.

No other Jewish false messiah claimant or false prophet claimant did these things, which is why their practices never shared the same success.

In any case, we don't believe in virgin births; we don't believe in original sin; we don't believe in salvation from original sin; we don't believe Jesus was the son of anything more than two human beings; and we don't believe he sacrificed himself for anything, we believe he was just another unfortunate Jew killed by the Romans.

What non-Jews believe about him today is none of our concern, and has nothing to do with us, and probably very little to do with who he actually was.

jews too arrogant because god creates them ( israel) as the best race all over the word. mohammed was come from out of their race. but over our thinking, god mentioned / has predicted this on NT and quran.

First of all, Jews are not arrogant, thank you very much. Second of all, we do not believe that God "creates" us as "the best race." That is not what chosenness means. It means that we were given the chance to have a unique relationship with God, in the covenant of Torah. That has nothing to do with whether God has other unique relationships, even other, different covenants with other peoples: we presume that He may, it just isn't our concern. Chosenness does not imply superiority, only difference. People really need to understand that.
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
At the time of Jesus' life, there were hundreds of guys running around ancient Israel claiming to be the messiah. The only reason that Jesus' followers' movement is still around is because the apostate Paul and his followers turned it from a messianic and apocalyptic Jewish movement into a new religion, distinct from Judaism, for non-Jews, and then eventually managed to convert the Roman Emperor and his family, thus combining the authority of the new religion with the compelling power of the state.

No other Jewish false messiah claimant or false prophet claimant did these things, which is why their practices never shared the same success.

In any case, we don't believe in virgin births; we don't believe in original sin; we don't believe in salvation from original sin; we don't believe Jesus was the son of anything more than two human beings; and we don't believe he sacrificed himself for anything, we believe he was just another unfortunate Jew killed by the Romans.

What non-Jews believe about him today is none of our concern, and has nothing to do with us, and probably very little to do with who he actually was.

Levite.......you're good. That was the best and most clear explanation of the Jewish position on Jesus that I've heard. Makes a lot of sense.

As I respect your opinions, I would like to get your take on my post 67. As a non-expert in the scriptures, it has always seemed to me that experts sometimes do double-reverse backflips through a flaming hoop to explain scripture that intuitively seems wrong or at odds with historical events and a modern view of what makes sense. And I have a hard time believing the original scripture writer had all these esoteric meanings in mind when writing.

Two examples:
Christian: The original scipture writers were expecting an imminant return of Christ and a Judgement Day.
Judaism: The original scrpture writers were expecting an imminant Messiah coming in a world still much like there own.

I believe in God but think scripture writers can be plain wrong sometimes. WHat is your opinion on this?
 

sumaidi

ashabul yamin
dear levite...
we are as a good moslem have to accept both your torah and scripture, we accept both moses and jesus as the person chosen by god as prophet.

we know that moses, jesus and mohammed come from the same "father", abraham. many prophet come from it clan.

but you can't close your eyes and mind, if jesus and mohammed are not a person really chosen by god, it is impossible they have follower as many as today. it is impossible their words are accepted by many people all around the world untill today.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I think InvestigateTruth gave us some references i personally would like to see some more so lets hope people can post them in the future and maybe even address the verses.

Let's get to the root of this....So why followers of Prophet Joseph said, there won't be another Messenger forever?

“And Joseph came to you aforetime with clear tokens, but ye ceased not to doubt of the message with which He came to you, until, when He died, ye said, ‘God will by no means raise up a Messenger after Him.’ Thus God misleadeth him who is the transgressor the doubter.” Qur’án 40:34.
 

sumaidi

ashabul yamin
to Jayhawker Soule,
can you mention out of prophet of god who else has follower as many as them? compare it's followers amount with moslem and christian all over the world.

to all moslem, judaism and christian, we all absolutely pray to same god, Allah, god of moses, jesus and mohammad. if we really try to find god, we'll meet it.

if you learn hadith, mohammad opinion and had done, then use you mind,is it possible that this man is not a prophet? let try to know about mohammad first, you will find that he is really a person chosen by god as a prophet after moses and jesus.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
Let's get to the root of this....So why followers of Prophet Joseph said, there won't be another Messenger forever?

“And Joseph came to you aforetime with clear tokens, but ye ceased not to doubt of the message with which He came to you, until, when He died, ye said, ‘God will by no means raise up a Messenger after Him.’ Thus God misleadeth him who is the transgressor the doubter.” Qur’án 40:34.

Uhm this is going off-topic the title clearly says ''Jews'' not ''Muslims'' but let us be the first give a example. In verse 34 we can clearly see those people were in doubt and did not know.

Now as for muslims why there cannot be someone else after him is simply because of

Some authentic hadiths/traditions:


"The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another prophet succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs(literally, successors) will succeed me.''

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_prophets#cite_note-Bukhari.2C_Kitab-ul-Manaqib-4

Muhammad affirmed: "My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example: A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marvelled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_prophets#cite_note-Bukhari.2C_Kitab-ul-Manaqib-4
"So I came and in me the line of Prophets has ended."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_prophets#cite_note-5http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_prophets#cite_note-6
The very same tradition in similar words has been incorporated among other traditions reported by Jabir ibn abd-Allah ; and its last sentence reads, "It is in me that line of Prophets came to its final end.

Musnad Ahmad contains traditions reported by Ubay Ibn Ka'b, Abu Sa'id al-khudri and Abu harairah on the same subject with a slight variation of words here and there.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_prophets#cite_note-8
Muhammad observed: "God has bestowed upon me six favours which the former Prophets did not enjoy:

  • I have been endowed with the gift of pithy and perfect speech.
  • I was granted victory owing to my awe.
  • The spoils of war were made lawful unto me.
  • The whole earth has been made the place of worship for me and it has become the means of purification for me also. In other words in my religion, offering of prayers is not confined to certain specified places of worship. Prayers can be offered at any place over the earth. And in case water is not available it is lawful for my people to perform ablutions with earth(Tayammum) and to cleanse themselves with the soil if water for bathing is scarce.
  • I have been sent by Allah to carry His Divine message to the whole world.
  • The line of prophets has come to its final end in me.

Muhammad affirmed: "The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_prophets#cite_note-10


Muhammad observed: "I am Muhammad, I am Ahmad, I am the Effacer and infidelity shall be erased through me; I am the Assembler. People shall be assembled on Doomsday(judgement-day) after my time. And I am the last in the sense that no prophet shall succeed me."

'Abdur Rahman bin Jubair reported:
"I heard Abdullah bin 'Amr ibn-'As narrating that one day the Holy Prophet came out of his house and joined our company. His manner gave us the impression as if he were leaving us.' He said, 'I am Muhammad, the unlettered prophet of Allah' and repeated this statement three times. Then he affirmed: "There will be no prophet after me'."

Muhammad told Ali, "You are related to me as Aaron was related to Moses.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_prophets#cite_note-17 But no Apostle will come after me."

This tradition is recorded in Bukhari and Muslim in the account of the Battle of Tabouk also. Musnad records two traditions narrated by Sa'd Ibn abi Waggas on this subject. The last sentence in one of these traditions runs as follows: "Behold there is no prophet-hood after me."


There are many and many and many more hadiths that confirm the same message so in Islam its clear.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
if jesus and mohammed are not a person really chosen by god, it is impossible they have follower as many as today. it is impossible their words are accepted by many people all around the world untill today.

So we judge truth and divine intent by someone's popularity?

Because by that reckoning, we should all be making a religion out of the Beatles, or JRR Tolkien, or Scarlett Johansen.

I'm sorry, but number of followers makes absolutely no difference to me. Jews are commanded to keep Judaism, and to not practice other religions. Whatever non-Jews do has nothing to do with us. And the fact that billions of people want to worship a dead Jew, or billions of people say that their prophet is a true inheritor of Abraham, does nothing to change those things. Christianity and Islam are other religions. They have nothing to do with Judaism or Jews. If non-Jews want to practice them, great. But nothing will change for us, whether Christians and Muslims number in the billions or just in the dozens.

As I respect your opinions, I would like to get your take on my post 67. As a non-expert in the scriptures, it has always seemed to me that experts sometimes do double-reverse backflips through a flaming hoop to explain scripture that intuitively seems wrong or at odds with historical events and a modern view of what makes sense. And I have a hard time believing the original scripture writer had all these esoteric meanings in mind when writing.

Two examples:
Christian: The original scipture writers were expecting an imminant return of Christ and a Judgement Day.
Judaism: The original scrpture writers were expecting an imminant Messiah coming in a world still much like there own.

I believe in God but think scripture writers can be plain wrong sometimes. WHat is your opinion on this?

I don't think it's an either-or situation. I personally do not believe either in inerrant scripture or in the Divine authorship of the text: I believe that Torah is a joint endeavor between God and human beings, and that the human side of that endeavor can make mistakes.

But I do put a lot of faith in the ability of the text to be a vehicle of truth and divine commandment. We Jews believe that Torah was created with infinite levels of meaning: it was designed to be interpreted and reinterpreted, because its truth will never be exhausted.

We simply don't have an expectation that the text is ever intended to be read at the simplest and most literal, surface level. It may, sometimes, but quite often, it isn't, and to us, that is normal, and to be expected. So while it can look to outsiders as though we take interpretive routes that are convoluted and overly complicated, it only appears that way if you've gone in presuming that the simplest, surface reading of the text-- literalism-- is what the authors intended to be received. If one doesn't make that presumption, a lot of doors open to multiple possibilities of interpretation, none of which appear strange.
 
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F0uad

Well-Known Member
So we judge truth and divine intent by someone's popularity?

Because by that reckoning, we should all be making a religion out of the Beatles, or JRR Tolkien, or Scarlett Johansen.

I'm sorry, but number of followers makes absolutely no difference to me. Jews are commanded to keep Judaism, and to not practice other religions. Whatever non-Jews do has nothing to do with us. And the fact that billions of people want to worship a dead Jew, or billions of people say that their prophet is a true inheritor of Abraham, does nothing to change those things. Christianity and Islam are other religions. They have nothing to do with Judaism or Jews. If non-Jews want to practice them, great. But nothing will change for us, whether Christians and Muslims number in the billions or just in the dozens.

I agree numbers doesn't say anything, can i ask maybe to bring some verses that for example the prophets/messengers ended at a certain time or that only Jewish prophets/messengers are valid to follow...

''Or anything related scripturally to deny Mohammed(saws) or Jesus(p)''
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
I agree numbers doesn't say anything, can i ask maybe to bring some verses that for example the prophets/messengers ended at a certain time or that only Jewish prophets/messengers are valid to follow...

''Or anything related scripturally to deny Mohammed(saws) or Jesus(p)''

The thirteenth chapter of Deuteronomy tells us that if a person comes along claiming to be a prophet, and their message is that we should cease keeping the commandments, or worship God in some fashion not our own, or give up the Torah, then that prophet is false.

The Rabbis tell us in the Talmud (I can't recall tractate and page at the moment) that the age of prophets ended around the time of Ezra and Nechemiah. And they make it crystal clear that Jesus was a false prophet. They actually believed that there had ever only been seven non-Jewish prophets: it is not at all clear that they thought there could ever be any more. But it is inconceivable that they would have accepted the message of a non-Jewish prophet that told the Jews that they should adhere to a scripture other than Torah, and adopt different ritual and law, and a different sacred language. Any Jew who said such a thing would be accounted a heretic, and rightly so.
 

sumaidi

ashabul yamin
dear levite.. off course its difference with popularity that you mention. what we talk is about religion.

it not wise to say that what we chose is the best without compare first with another.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I don't think it's an either-or situation. I personally do not believe either in inerrant scripture or in the Divine authorship of the text: I believe that Torah is a joint endeavor between God and human beings, and that the human side of that endeavor can make mistakes.

But I do put a lot of faith in the ability of the text to be a vehicle of truth and divine commandment. We Jews believe that Torah was created with infinite levels of meaning: it was designed to be interpreted and reinterpreted, because its truth will never be exhausted.

We simply don't have an expectation that the text is ever intended to be read at the simplest and most literal, surface level. It may, sometimes, but quite often, it isn't, and to us, that is normal, and to be expected. So while it can look to outsiders as though we take interpretive routes that are convoluted and overly complicated, it only appears that way if you've gone in presuming that the simplest, surface reading of the text-- literalism-- is what the authors intended to be received. If one doesn't make that presumption, a lot of doors open to multiple possibilities of interpretation, none of which appear strange.

Thank you for answering my question.

I hope you can understand my doubt that the actual scripture writers from thousands of years ago had any of the convoluted and overly complicated meanings (as you called them) in mind when they were writing.

It almost sounds like you're saying the writers were content to give the common person misleading information because they were really writing in code to a higher audience (as in my Messiah example). Isn't it more reasonable to believe that sometimes they were just plain mistaken.

I respect your opinions very much and would like to know if you agree with me (or more likely why you less than agree with me:D )
 
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