Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[LegionOnomaMoi]

If you want to get all technical about it, teaching one to speak in the first place is just about as "brainwashing" as it gets.

Actually, if you want to get all technical about it, then teaching anything to children (whether religious teaching or teaching kids how to read) can't possibly be brainwashing. The whole point of "washing" in "brainwashing" is the idea that information that was there is removed so that a person can be "programmed" anew. Whether it is cult indoctrination, some CIA experiments, extreme government propaganda, etc., the goal is always the same: take someone's way of thinking and change it to fit a new purpose. You "wash" the mind of old ideas to put new ones in. You can't brainwash children as you are teaching them their initial frameworks, not exchanging old for new. Indoctrination, yes. Brainwashing, no.
It may seem pretty trivial, but the distinction is important (IMO) for precisely the reason you state: any and all teaching of children would be brainwashing if we ignore the distinction.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What I mean is this...
a case has been made that a religious parent shouldn't instill within his kids his religion because it will steer the child towards said religion as he grows up rather than letting him finding out on his own what he likes or doesn't like, and therefore end up deciding on which, if any, religion the kid decides to follow.
If you believe this to be true, then by that logic, an Atheist who didn't teach his kids about religion would be teaching his kid about the "Atheistic Religion" (If you can call it that). A Child who doesn't grow with a knowledge of what God is, is growing as an Atheist, which is what religious people have been accused of doing.

Hope I made that clearer.

You keep on saying "by that logic" as if to imply that you understand my arguments. I don't think you do.

And I think it's bizarre and illogical to claim that imposing no beliefs at all on a child is a form of imposing beliefs on a child.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A great testament as to probably why you're irreligious. If you don't "get" what it means to believe, then you're not going to "get" religion, and it's going to be seen as largely unimportant.

It seems to me that your notion of what religion is excludes the religiosity of people like Mister Emu and dantech. Before I can take you seriously, you'll have to come up with something more inclusive that accounts for beliefs like theirs.

 

[dantech]

You keep on saying "by that logic" as if to imply that you understand my arguments. I don't think you do.

I thought I did, maybe I didn't. Why don't you clear it up for me.

And I think it's bizarre and illogical to claim that imposing no beliefs at all on a child is a form of imposing beliefs on a child.

What I mean is that a child, in most cases, will learn mostly from his parents and look up to them.

If a parent is an Atheist, at some point in time the child will ask the parent "Why can't my friend eat bacon?" That's probably when the religious education will start for an atheist parent. Of course as an atheist, he will not only say "Because he is a Jew, and so on...". He will start telling him about why he, his father, doesn't believe in a God. And that is the exact same as a Jew telling his son why he does believe in a God. Both children will be raised in the parent's most ideal way because a parent only wants what he believes is best for his children.

So what I mean by "By that logic" is that whatever arguments you make against religious parents teaching their children the ways of their faith, you can make the same arguments for atheist parents teaching their kids why they don't have a religion.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I thought I did, maybe I didn't. Why don't you clear it up for me.


What I mean is that a child, in most cases, will learn mostly from his parents and look up to them.

If a parent is an Atheist, at some point in time the child will ask the parent "Why can't my friend eat bacon?" That's probably when the religious education will start for an atheist parent. Of course as an atheist, he will not only say "Because he is a Jew, and so on...". He will start telling him about why he, his father, doesn't believe in a God. And that is the exact same as a Jew telling his son why he does believe in a God. Both children will be raised in the parent's most ideal way because a parent only wants what he believes is best for his children.

So what I mean by "By that logic" is that whatever arguments you make against religious parents teaching their children the ways of their faith, you can make the same arguments for atheist parents teaching their kids why they don't have a religion.

Well technically the parent could answer "your friend can't eat bacon because they believe that God told them not to"

The believe part sort of makes it into something personal rather than hard fact I suppose?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What I mean is that a child, in most cases, will learn mostly from his parents and look up to them.

If a parent is an Atheist, at some point in time the child will ask the parent "Why can't my friend eat bacon?" That's probably when the religious education will start for an atheist parent. Of course as an atheist, he will not only say "Because he is a Jew, and so on...". He will start telling him about why he, his father, doesn't believe in a God.

He will? Why do you assume this?

Personally, I think a better approach is to tell him what different people believe: most Jews and Muslims don't eat bacon, most Mormons don't drink coffee, most Hindus don't eat beef, etc.

Yes, the child will probably realize that he's seen me eating hamburgers and bacon and drinking coffee and will realize that I don't believe in what Jews, Muslims, Mormons, or Hindus believe. He may ask me about what he should believe. In that case, I think the best approach is to get the child to work through it himself: ask him "what do you think?" and help him explore the issue without imposing beliefs on him. Emphasize the process of critical thinking, not the end result.

And that is the exact same as a Jew telling his son why he does believe in a God. Both children will be raised in the parent's most ideal way because a parent only wants what he believes is best for his children.

I wouldn't consider what you're describing to be the ideal approach regardless of whether the parents are atheist or religious. I get the sense that you just don't understand how a parent can raise a child without deliberately imposing some sort of religious beliefs on them. Even if you don't understand how, you should realize that it is possible.

So what I mean by "By that logic" is that whatever arguments you make against religious parents teaching their children the ways of their faith, you can make the same arguments for atheist parents teaching their kids why they don't have a religion.

Ah... because if it's physically impossible to eradicate a thing, then any amount of it is A-OK, right?

"Who are you to condemn me having sex in front of my kids? Your kids can sorta hear you through the wall... it's the same thing!"

 

[Magic Man]

I thought I did, maybe I didn't. Why don't you clear it up for me.


What I mean is that a child, in most cases, will learn mostly from his parents and look up to them.

If a parent is an Atheist, at some point in time the child will ask the parent "Why can't my friend eat bacon?" That's probably when the religious education will start for an atheist parent. Of course as an atheist, he will not only say "Because he is a Jew, and so on...". He will start telling him about why he, his father, doesn't believe in a God. And that is the exact same as a Jew telling his son why he does believe in a God. Both children will be raised in the parent's most ideal way because a parent only wants what he believes is best for his children.

So what I mean by "By that logic" is that whatever arguments you make against religious parents teaching their children the ways of their faith, you can make the same arguments for atheist parents teaching their kids why they don't have a religion.

There's a difference between explaining religious practices/beliefs to your child and indoctrinating them with beliefs. I plan to teach my kids about religion and various religious beliefs. It's only indoctrinating them when you try to force the beliefs into their head. I was raised Catholic, meaning I was told that Catholicism is true and that I should believe. That's a lot different from me explaining to my kids why I personally believe what I do without telling them to believe exactly what I do.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

There's a difference between explaining religious practices/beliefs to your child and indoctrinating them with beliefs. I plan to teach my kids about religion and various religious beliefs. It's only indoctrinating them when you try to force the beliefs into their head. I was raised Catholic, meaning I was told that Catholicism is true and that I should believe. That's a lot different from me explaining to my kids why I personally believe what I do without telling them to believe exactly what I do.

You can't raise kids without indoctrinating them. When they learn your language it changes how they think. Cognition is fundamentally related to culture and language. Raising your children to believe certain things are right or wrong (or aren't) is indoctrination. It's also essential, IMO.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You can't raise kids without indoctrinating them. When they learn your language it changes how they think. Cognition is fundamentally related to culture and language. Raising your children to believe certain things are right or wrong (or aren't) is indoctrination. It's also essential, IMO.

But there's also the matter of process. Leaving things at the "don't do ______ because God says so" level of understanding leaves the person vulnerable, because they won't have the critical thinking tools in place when someone who wants to take advantage of them tells them "God says so."

 

[Koldo]

You can't raise kids without indoctrinating them. When they learn your language it changes how they think. Cognition is fundamentally related to culture and language. Raising your children to believe certain things are right or wrong (or aren't) is indoctrination. It's also essential, IMO.

Is religious indoctrination essential though?

 

[Magic Man]

You can't raise kids without indoctrinating them. When they learn your language it changes how they think. Cognition is fundamentally related to culture and language. Raising your children to believe certain things are right or wrong (or aren't) is indoctrination. It's also essential, IMO.

I think we differ on what is indoctrination. I am not going to indoctrinate my kids with any particular beliefs. I'm going to give them the tools to make decisions on their own. Just like with religion, I expect that using critical thinking they'll form certain conclusions (like murder is wrong, etc.), but that will be up to them. Teaching them language is not indoctrination, even if it does influence how they see the world. Of course, I'm also going to raise my kids somewhat bilingual and try to expose them to different cultures.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I think we differ on what is indoctrination.

Probably. But then, few people who teach their children what they believe is correct and right believe they are indoctrinating them. There always seems to be this idea that all the things one teaches one's children, whether it is culture, morality, ethics, religion, spirituality, or just a love of learning is not indoctrination. To someone else, it usually is. The word literally means "to teach" or "to instruct". From the OED:
a. trans. To imbue with learning, to teach.

1626 T. Jackson Comm. Apostles Creed viii. xii. §6 This will not indoctrinate him to know the extremities of the stone so perfectly as his meanest patient doth.
1652–62 P. Heylyn Cosmogr. (1682) ii. 128 They are altogether unlearned, even the Priests meanly indoctrinated.
1677 tr. A.-N. Amelot de La Houssaie Hist. Govt. Venice 144 Young Gentlemen, who..are received into the Colledg to be indoctrinated.
1820 Scott Monastery II. v. 177 It shall be my part so to indoctrinate him, as to convince him what is due..to your lordship.
1865 D. Livingstone & C. Livingstone Narr. Exped. Zambesi xxv. 513 No pains whatever are taken to indoctrinate the adults of the tribe.



b. To instruct in a subject, principle, etc.


1656 H. More Enthusiasmus Triumphatus 21 Manes..left a sect behind him indoctrinated in all licentious and filthy principles.
a1661 T. Fuller Worthies (1662) Mddx. 177 The Lord Treasurer Burleigh..was indoctrinated by a Cobler in the true Tanning of Leather.
1858 E. H. Sears Athanasia iii. v. 291 His mind had become thoroughly indoctrinated in the tenets of his sect.
1876 J. C. Geikie Life of Christ (1879) xxxv. 417 He rather trained their spiritual character than indoctrinated them in systematic theology

I am not going to indoctrinate my kids with any particular beliefs.

Best of luck, then. This was a constant worry of mine (how to do this).

 

[idav]

Best of luck, then. This was a constant worry of mine (how to do this).

Teaching the kids critical thinking skills should help avoid indoctrinating them, teaching them to think for themselves. If the kids are to just regurgitate what they hear then that it indoctrination.

 

[Magic Man]

Probably. But then, few people who teach their children what they believe is correct and right believe they are indoctrinating them. There always seems to be this idea that all the things one teaches one's children, whether it is culture, morality, ethics, religion, spirituality, or just a love of learning is not indoctrination. To someone else, it usually is. The word literally means "to teach" or "to instruct". From the OED:
a. trans. To imbue with learning, to teach.

1626 T. Jackson Comm. Apostles Creed viii. xii. §6 This will not indoctrinate him to know the extremities of the stone so perfectly as his meanest patient doth.
1652–62 P. Heylyn Cosmogr. (1682) ii. 128 They are altogether unlearned, even the Priests meanly indoctrinated.
1677 tr. A.-N. Amelot de La Houssaie Hist. Govt. Venice 144 Young Gentlemen, who..are received into the Colledg to be indoctrinated.
1820 Scott Monastery II. v. 177 It shall be my part so to indoctrinate him, as to convince him what is due..to your lordship.
1865 D. Livingstone & C. Livingstone Narr. Exped. Zambesi xxv. 513 No pains whatever are taken to indoctrinate the adults of the tribe.



b. To instruct in a subject, principle, etc.


1656 H. More Enthusiasmus Triumphatus 21 Manes..left a sect behind him indoctrinated in all licentious and filthy principles.
a1661 T. Fuller Worthies (1662) Mddx. 177 The Lord Treasurer Burleigh..was indoctrinated by a Cobler in the true Tanning of Leather.
1858 E. H. Sears Athanasia iii. v. 291 His mind had become thoroughly indoctrinated in the tenets of his sect.
1876 J. C. Geikie Life of Christ (1879) xxxv. 417 He rather trained their spiritual character than indoctrinated them in systematic theology

That may well be, but these days "indoctrination" has the connotation of forcing your beliefs on others, which is different from just teaching. Of course, this also seems to be getting into the "intolerance of intolerance" issue, where different forms of something are equivocated, which is another reason I disagree with the use of "indoctrination" in this case.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Teaching the kids critical thinking skills should help avoid indoctrinating them, teaching them to think for themselves. If the kids are to just regurgitate what they hear then that it indoctrination.

Western cultures are highly individualistic. Critical thinking in the West frequently means "thinking for yourself". In many cultures, current and especially historical, this was either reprehensible as it destroyed communal bonds and social structures, or even nonsensical (it's hard to teach the importance of "self" when there isn't really any such concept or word). By the time we get to critical thinking (which arguably is a long time; I had trouble teaching it to high school kids and even sometimes college age kids) the kind of cultural indoctrination that will forever shape perceptions is complete.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

<YAWN>
Come back when you have a better grasp of belief.

I'll take your lack of objection to mean you've understood your error. When I say "I have faith that X", I'm not saying anything specific about the content of X- it could be literally anything ("Grass is green", "the Vikings will win on Sunday", "Paris is the capital of France", "God exists", etc.)- but rather, I'm saying that my belief is held on faith, rather than evidence.

It is true of what religion is -- not of what some, or even many, choose to make of it. I can't help it if there are a lot of wackos in 'Murrika who don't know the difference between belief and fantasy.

Unfortunately, your idea of what religion "is" is not and has not been shared by most people, whether now or throughout history. Given that religion is just a social phenomenon, this shows that what you think religion is, is NOT, in general, what religion actually is.

Clearly, it isn't "brainwashing."

No, that is far from clear.

But to say that there's some mythic "age of accountability" that's necessary in order for religion to not be "brainwashing" is making a complicated mountain out of a simple molehill.

Its an uncontroversial point that young children can't understand or evaluate the matter, whereas as one gets older, one can. There is no single, magic number, but there's clearly a line to be drawn. And given that ones religion often forms an integral part of a person's identity, parents taking it upon themselves to make this choice for their child is simply selfish.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I don't think there is any lack of understanding about the sincerity of belief on one's culture.

I don't think anyone here doubts that parents, who teach their children to blindly follow a religion, blindly follow that religion themselves. They really do believe that is for the best.

Well you are missing the point as you keep referring to the sincerity of belief from the 3rd person. I am talking about simple bias.

If I believed a vengeful deity existed and could send my kids to hell if they did not obey this god then my actions would be justified.

What if this belief consisted of hatred, bigotry and violence?

Salafi Muslims believe in this often and support violence and justify it through belief in god as an absolute fact.

Why do you not let them do the work of god?


It is not a matter of understanding that people are sincere in their belief it is a matter of understanding that to them their belief is as good as fact.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Western cultures are highly individualistic. Critical thinking in the West frequently means "thinking for yourself". In many cultures, current and especially historical, this was either reprehensible as it destroyed communal bonds and social structures, or even nonsensical (it's hard to teach the importance of "self" when there isn't really any such concept or word). By the time we get to critical thinking (which arguably is a long time; I had trouble teaching it to high school kids and even sometimes college age kids) the kind of cultural indoctrination that will forever shape perceptions is complete.

On the flipside, though, it's because of this emphasis on individuality that many traditionally community-based religions are able to practice at all today. In the West, a parent's right to be Jewish (for instance) and his child's right not to be Jewish are both the same right when it gets right down to it. This makes religious indoctrination hypocritical... at least in this society.

There was a time when everything but Protestant Christianity was severely repressed here. At one point, Catholics were effectively barred from public office. In my parents' lifetime, there were private clubs that didn't allow Jews to join. If we hadn't moved from that community-based idea of religion to an individualistic approach, Jews and Catholics wouldn't be in a position to expose their children to their faith at all.

 

[LuisDantas]

Thanks for posting this:

So what I mean by "By that logic" is that whatever arguments you make against religious parents teaching their children the ways of their faith, you can make the same arguments for atheist parents teaching their kids why they don't have a religion.

By the letter of it you are saying that theists shouldn't freely teach their beliefs to their children while atheists should. Which I do actually agree with, although I doubt that is what you meant.

But that is not why I am thanking you. It is rather because you are allowing me a better glimpse at your worries, and I think I do understand them a bit better for that.

It seems to me that you find it unfair to demand theists to be careful with what they teach their children about the existence of God while failing to do that same with atheists.

Would that be a fair description of your feelings about this matter?


If so, let me elaborate on something that I mentioned a few posts ago. There is a decisive difference between an atheist parent teaching that he does not believe in God and a theist parent teaching that God does exist and expects some specific behavior from people.

Those are assymetrical situations, and will always be. An atheist can hardly scare his children with the absence of a God, while many theists do in fact resort to scaring their children or imposing them difficult situations of one sort or another by justifying themselves with their beliefs.

If anything, an Atheist will be up front with the fact that others simply do not agree with him and that is alright. That is a definite advantage IMO. To be fair, many Theists also accept and teach that it is ok for others to have different beliefs from their own. But for Atheists it is almost unavoidable.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

On the flipside, though, it's because of this emphasis on individuality that many traditionally community-based religions are able to practice at all today.

In traditional community-based religion, culture and religion were inseparable. There is no word for religion in Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Hittite, or Sanskrit. To describe someone's religion was to say what gods they worshipped and how. The modern conception of religion is primarily a Christian one that changed how religion was understood in India, China, and the East in general through colonialism, indoctrination, and more general cultural contact. The modern concept of religion is one of the greatest examples of indoctrination that exists.