Why making your children follow your religion truly is brainwashing

[Curious George]

OK, then, it's not reasonable in one case, and so it's not reasonable in the other. Right?

It's not reasonable to tell someone God is real? No, it's reasonable.

 

[Magic Man]

So the standard for whether freedom of religion is a right is whether a person is capable of choosing to practice it?

People have the right to practice any religion they want. Forcing particular religious beliefs on a child goes against that right.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm going to make it as plain as I can: government doesn't do that.

Right. That's why same-sex marriage is still illegal in most states in the U.S.

 

[Magic Man]

It's not reasonable to tell someone God is real? No, it's reasonable.

It's reasonable to tell another adult equal that god is real. It's not reasonable to use your authority to force that belief or others on anyone.

 

[Willamena]

People have the right to practice any religion they want. Forcing particular religious beliefs on a child goes against that right.

You are drawing a line between beliefs that are taught and beliefs which, because of their very nature (literal), constitute "forcing."

Slippery slope, Matt.

 

[Magic Man]

You are drawing a line between beliefs that are taught and beliefs which, because of their very nature (literal), constitute "forcing."

Slippery slope, Matt.

I'm stating that when you're in a position of authority over someone who gets most of their information about the world from you, it doesn't take much to force beliefs on them, and so you should be careful how you approach that.

 

[Willamena]

I'm stating that when you're in a position of authority over someone who gets most of their information about the world from you, it doesn't take much to force beliefs on them, and so you should be careful how you approach that.

Now you've said something we can agree on.

 

[Magic Man]

Now you've said something we can agree on.

Not now. I've been saying that all along. Part of that being careful is not telling them things that aren't facts as if they are.

 

[Curious George]

It's reasonable to tell another adult equal that god is real. It's not reasonable to use your authority to force that belief or others on anyone.

Well we seem to be at a "nuh-uh" "uh-huh" impasse.

We agree, I believe, that a parent is well within their rights to communicate beliefs as facts. Otherwise discussions about shots would take on a very different tone. We see without question, parents communicate beliefs as facts to children. The disagreement seems to revolve around the rationality of religion.

 

[Willamena]

Not now. I've been saying that all along. Part of that being careful is not telling them things that aren't facts as if they are.

Careful of what?

If you give them a particular metaphysical image of the world that includes only the facts that you deem appropriate for them to have, you've successfully indoctrinated them.

 

[m.ramdeen]

It's reasonable to tell another adult equal that god is real. It's not reasonable to use your authority to force that belief or others on anyone.

@ Curious George, just ease up there bro. Notice Magic man just used the word "force". I know, and you know that nobody is forcing their religious views on their children.

I don't think any of the religious parents on this forum tell their kids:
"Believe in my God or I will disown you"
"If you don't feel like coming to church, we will hit you until you change your mind" :sad4:

Again, you guys are talking past each other. Call a truce already )(

And if Magic man still insists normal parenting activities are tantamount to forcing beliefs unto children then we'll know its then we'll all know there's some kinda bias thingy wingy going on.

Remember people the problem is with the method, not the content
Say it with me "the method; not the content" :rainbow1:

 

[Magic Man]

Well we seem to be at a "nuh-uh" "uh-huh" impasse.

We agree, I believe, that a parent is well within their rights to communicate beliefs as facts. Otherwise discussions about shots would take on a very different tone. We see without question, parents communicate beliefs as facts to children. The disagreement seems to revolve around the rationality of religion.

The main disagreement in this case is whether or not parents should communicate beliefs as fact to their children.

 

[Magic Man]

@ Curious George, just ease up there bro. Notice Magic man just used the word "force". I know, and you know that nobody is forcing their religious views on their children.

I don't think any of the religious parents on this forum tell their kids:
"Believe in my God or I will disown you"
"If you don't feel like coming to church, we will hit you until you change your mind" :sad4:

Again, you guys are talking past each other. Call a truce already )(

And if Magic man still insists normal parenting activities are tantamount to forcing beliefs unto children then we'll know its then we'll all know there's some kinda bias thingy wingy going on.

Remember people the problem is with the method, not the content
Say it with me "the method; not the content" :rainbow1:

Parents telling their children their beliefs as if they're facts is forcing the beliefs on the kid, whether they tell them they have to believe them or not. This follows from another recent post of mine:

I'm stating that when you're in a position of authority over someone who gets most of their information about the world from you, it doesn't take much to force beliefs on them, and so you should be careful how you approach that.

As I also brought up earlier, there doesn't have to be an explicit "believe this or else" clause for it to be forced. Most of the time, it starts young with teaching the child to quote the Bible, taking them to church every week, teaching them the beliefs as facts, among other things. That stuff is forcing the religious beliefs on them, even if it's not in the way you mention.

 

[Magic Man]

Careful of what?

Didn't you just agree to my statement? Did you not fully understand it before agreeing?

Careful of giving them bad information, or forcing things onto them they might not want.

If you give them a particular metaphysical image of the world that includes only the facts that you deem appropriate for them to have, you've successfully indoctrinated them.

Nope.

 

[Curious George]

The main disagreement in this case is whether or not parents should communicate beliefs as fact to their children.

Come on. We don't tell our kids "there is a statistical chance this medicine will make you feel better" or "I believe you need this shot." Nor has anyone objected to saying Santa is real. It has been thoroughly established that parents communicate their beliefs as facts. The issues that are being discussed now are necessity and rationality.

 

[Me Myself]

Is there any statistical evidence that raising kids with the religion of their parents tends to be harmful yet?

Or do we use the word "indoctrination" for harmless events now?

 

[Magic Man]

Come on. We don't tell our kids "there is a statistical chance this medicine will make you feel better" or "I believe you need this shot."

The first one we can tell kids. The second one isn't about a belief (assuming you're talking about something like a polio vaccine or something).

Nor has anyone objected to saying Santa is real.

It's not quite the same because there's no expectation of them continuing to believe it throughout their life. Of course, I'm still not a big fan of it, but it's more like telling them myths as myths.

It has been thoroughly established that parents communicate their beliefs as facts. The issues that are being discussed now are necessity and rationality.

The main issue is whether or not parents should communicate beliefs as facts.

 

[Curious George]

The first one we can tell kids. The second one isn't about a belief (assuming you're talking about something like a polio vaccine or something).



It's not quite the same because there's no expectation of them continuing to believe it throughout their life. Of course, I'm still not a big fan of it, but it's more like telling them myths as myths.



The main issue is whether or not parents should communicate beliefs as facts.

They are all beliefs. Not facts. But we present them to children as facts. You do not know for a fact the medicine will help, nor do you know that the child needs the shot. We may tell the child that Santa is a myth later on, but that would be akin to telling the child that religion is a belief later on.

 

[Willamena]

Didn't you just agree to my statement? Did you not fully understand it before agreeing?

I did. It's just that what I would be careful of obviously isn't what you would be careful of.

 

[Magic Man]

They are all beliefs. Not facts. But we present them to children as facts.

Not true.

You do not know for a fact the medicine will help, nor do you know that the child needs the shot.

Depending on the shot and medicine this could be true or not true.

We may tell the child that Santa is a myth later on, but that would be akin to telling the child that religion is a belief later on.

Not exactly. The Santa myth isn't nearly as involved or big a part of the worldview, and it's not connected to other beliefs. It's also not believed by adults.