Why No Major Western Religions?

[PearlSeeker]

... while oral traditions would adapt to changing times.

And oral traditions have less reach and are prone to sink into oblivion.

Written traditions are not stiff because they are written but because interpretation is dogmatic.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I take it you are not counting secular humanism then?

True! Humanism is very much the product of the enlightenment, which was primarily a European worldview. Such great thinkers as John Locke, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Denis Diderot, Baron Thierry d'Holbach, Baron de Montesquieu, Immanuel Kant, David Hume, Thomas Hobbes, Voltaire, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Mary Wolstonecroft, Marquis de Condorcet, and others have all contributed to the Humanist philosophy and world-view.

 

[Bear Wild]

Oh, okay tenants. I think perhaps the word you are looking for is surfs. As far as I'm concerned, surfs are simply slavery 2.0. Unfortunately, for most of human history, most of the world has had slaves. They have been a part of pagan societies as well as monotheistic societies.

For example, St. Patrick was a Scot who was enslaved by the pagans in Ireland. "Social hierarchy was very much prevalent in early Irish society. You were either free (Saor) or unfree (Daor). Slaves obviously fall into the latter category and as a slave, you were considered an ambue (non-person) and had no protection against being killed or injured.

Slavery and Hostages in Early Medieval Ireland

Slavery Social hierarchy was very much prevalent in early Irish society. You were either free (Saor) or unfree (Daor). Slaves obviously fall into the latter category and as a slave, you were consid…

irishfolklore.wordpress.com

The abolition movement, when it finally came, was decidedly Christian.

Christianity has only been around a mere 2000 years. Humanity has been around for over 200,000. My point is that the women's rights movement began as an extension of Christian thought, starting with the Suffragettes. You didn't have women's rights back in Athens for example, or in Rome.

Again, it depends on when in history you examine Christianity. As it exists today, its very peaceful, and supports freedom of religion.

I'm not excusing the European treatment of the Native Americans, but surely you must be aware that before any white man ever set foot on North America, they made war against each other, had slaves, engaged in torture, etc. Yes, the white man pushed the Lakota off his land, but the Lakota were only there because they originally pushed the Crow off THEIR land. And so on. I'm afraid that human nature is pretty universal.

Give them time. It will come.

You keep bringing up Druids. These were people who did human sacrifice, and you want to hold them up as the ideal?

That has not been my experience. I have met very tolerant loving people of all religions, and I've met mean, hateful people in all religions. Human nature does not suddenly change when a person joins a particular religious groups. If you were an a-hole before, you will be an a-hole in your new group.

Sorry, that is just not my experience. Perhaps I have just had more time with mainline Christians. I stay away from fundamentalists of all religions.

Are you even aware of the interfaith prayer services that the Pope hosts? He gets together with Buddhists and Hindus and all the rest. They even had Native American dances.

Again, I don't think you are giving fair acknowledgement to the strides Christianity has made towards greater tolerance.

Would you say that the Roman pagans who sent Christians to die horrible deaths in the Coliseum were tolerant of other religions? Would you say that the Greeks who forced Hellenization on the world were tolerant? As a Jew, I can tell you some pretty nasty nasty things that the Greek pagans did to us in Judea.

But you are doing the exactly same thing with paganism, filtering out the bad in your group, while accentuating the bad in the other group.

I'm sorry, but my experience is simply that humans will be humans, regardless of religion. There is no magic bullet that makes a nasty person into a good and kind one.

I will honor your opinions even if I disagree. Both Christians and Pagans have done horrible things and if you want examples of the Christian horrors, I will be happy to cite some. So, in your opinion since both religions of pagan and Christian are populated by people with the same human behaviors, 1. is one better than the other. 2. Was it correct for Christianity to eliminate all other religious beliefs in Europe, America, and Australia? Thanks for listening to me.

 

[Bear Wild]

Do you have a link to any of these studies?

Who are the groups and times being compared?




Perhaps in America, in Western Europe it’s mostly the opposite.

The scholarly consensus is far more positive than the pop culture view.

It was only when I started reading some scholarly history that I found out that all the “Christian Dark Ages” putting an end to a rational and proto-humanistic Classical Antiquity type tropes were largely fabricated as sectarian and anti-religious polemics.

These views are so deeply entrenched as being “what everyone knows” that most folk will dismiss peer-reviewed secular texts out of hand as “apologetics” if they go against the popular view.

I can think of few topics where the difference between scholars and the general public are more pronounced.

It was several years ago while studying the transition of pagan Ireland to Christian Ireland. I will try to recover them but I need to look back into my notes. It was about the way people working on the land for the Christian monasteries and people working on the land for the pagans.

I understand your point on the scholar vs general public and appreciate the input. thanks.

 

[Kathryn]

I will honor your opinions even if I disagree. Both Christians and Pagans have done horrible things and if you want examples of the Christian horrors, I will be happy to cite some. So, in your opinion since both religions of pagan and Christian are populated by people with the same human behaviors, 1. is one better than the other. 2. Was it correct for Christianity to eliminate all other religious beliefs in Europe, America, and Australia? Thanks for listening to me.

Do you have examples of horrible things pagans have done?

 

[Bear Wild]

And oral traditions have less reach and are prone to sink into oblivion.

Written traditions are not stiff because they are written but because interpretation is dogmatic.

But written traditions do not communicate the full meaning that an oral tradition does which incorporates sound including music, dance, and direct interaction.

 

[Bear Wild]

Do you have examples of horrible things pagans have done?

This is a question based on current social norms. Human sacrifice seems horrible to us today, yet it has been a part of many cultures of the past. I remember reading about the Mayan sacrifice rituals which we have better written descriptions than European pagan societies. In our current societies this is considered horrible but within their social context it was considered essential for everyone else to survive. Of course, when you compare it to torturing someone to death because you believe they were a witch buts the Mayan and Pagan sacrifices in a different light.

 

[Kathryn]

This is a question based on current social norms. Human sacrifice seems horrible to us today, yet it has been a part of many cultures of the past. I remember reading about the Mayan sacrifice rituals which we have better written descriptions than European pagan societies. In our current societies this is considered horrible but within their social context it was considered essential for everyone else to survive. Of course, when you compare it to torturing someone to death because you believe they were a witch buts the Mayan and Pagan sacrifices in a different light.

Let me rephrase that. Do you have examples of TRULY horrible pagan practices? Not just ones that are considered horrible by today's standards. Not sure we should really go there.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why are all major religions from the East?

Even historically, Rome was full of Mirtha-worshippers and Manichaeans.

Why hasn't the West (Europe, the Americas etc.) produced any religions the likes of Islam or Zoroastrianism?

I'm not talking about small Pagan religions followed by a small amount of people who are essentially re-inventing it.

We just didn't seem to create anything on that scale and pass it along.

Because the Sun rises from the east.

 

[Bear Wild]

Let me rephrase that. Do you have examples of TRULY horrible pagan practices? Not just ones that are considered horrible by today's standards. Not sure we should really go there.

No I don't that is not outside of the realm of individual humans. The pagans of Europe were never evil. They were connected to and respected the land.

 

[PearlSeeker]

But written traditions do not communicate the full meaning that an oral tradition does which incorporates sound including music, dance, and direct interaction.

9 centuries old written music:

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I will honor your opinions even if I disagree. Both Christians and Pagans have done horrible things and if you want examples of the Christian horrors, I will be happy to cite some.

Oh, no need. Remember that I'm a Jew, and am quite familiar with Christian atrocities.

So, in your opinion since both religions of pagan and Christian are populated by people with the same human behaviors, 1. is one better than the other.

No, not in terms of the morality of the believers.

2. Was it correct for Christianity to eliminate all other religious beliefs in Europe, America, and Australia? Thanks for listening to me.

I wasn't aware they had. I'm here in America, and I'm not a Christian.

As regards Europe, there were instances where Christains converted at the point of a sword, such as with the Saxons. That's pretty evil. But the overwhelming majority of European conversions were via persuasion, and Christians have every right to do that.

 

[Bear Wild]

Oh, no need. Remember that I'm a Jew, and am quite familiar with Christian atrocities.

No, not in terms of the morality of the believers.

I wasn't aware they had. I'm here in America, and I'm not a Christian.

As regards Europe, there were instances where Christains converted at the point of a sword, such as with the Saxons. That's pretty evil. But the overwhelming majority of European conversions were via persuasion, and Christians have every right to do that.

It is always good having a discussion with you.

 

[Bear Wild]

9 centuries old written music:

Excellent now you just need to show the dance component. I am looking forward to that.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Excellent now you just need to show the dance component. I am looking forward to that.

Not all music was meant to dance to.

 

[Kathryn]

No I don't that is not outside of the realm of individual humans. The pagans of Europe were never evil. They were connected to and respected the land.

OK, so you say.

 

[Bear Wild]

OK, so you say.

Do you say anything different.

 

[Kathryn]

Do you say anything different.

I sure do but am uninterested in getting into a debate about it. I think mankind has always been the same basically and always will be.

 

[Bear Wild]

I sure do but am uninterested in getting into a debate about it. I think mankind has always been the same basically and always will be.

If you did not want to discuss it why ask?

 

[Kathryn]

If you did not want to discuss it why ask?

Why not? I wanted to see what you'd say.