Why No Major Western Religions?

[Tomef]

Specifically, the narrative that Christianity was established in Europe by Roman military might.

You’re aware that the Roman Empire, a thoroughly pagan institution, was already in advanced decline by the time of Constantine’s conversion to Christianity? And that Constantine’s capital wasn’t even Rome, it was the city he named after himself, which is now known as Istanbul (in Asia Minor)?

There’s no denying that without the political and military influence of the Roman Empire Christianity would not have spread as it did. There’s not really space in forum posts to cover all details, but that is an obvious fact by dint of that being how it happened, through political agreements based on relative power and influence. There are a lot of legends about miracles and so on that have been made up over the years, but it all comes down to the people in charge choosing what was politically expedient. Yes, I’m aware as most people are the Roman Empire split and for the most part was in decline over its last few centuries. It was still the Roman Empire with greater reach and influence than any other at the time.

 

[Secret Chief]

Given my OP specified east of the Americas and Europe, I thought it's obvious.

Northing seems good enough these days. Must all be nitpicked.

I think people here know what I mean.

Abrahamic religions are from the ME.

Dharmic religions are from India, the East.

The Dao and Confucianism are all Far Eastern.

And the West has natively.... what...?

Where are our large scale institutional religions? our ancient philosophies? Sure, Greece had some, what about the Gauls? The Slavs?

And you find this ****ing depressing because?

 

[Quintessence]

Of course there's major western religions. Much of it with the indigenous nations who have a deep rich spiritual background.

Yeah, I am just really baffled by the OP if I'm honest. Like, I know that indigenous Americans get hardly any coverage in public education, but... really? Are we really just going to ignore the entire cultural and religious heritage of the Americans and pretend there aren't any major religions that originated here and continue to exist here?

 

[Rival]

Yeah, I am just really baffled by the OP if I'm honest. Like, I know that indigenous Americans get hardly any coverage in public education, but... really? Are we really just going to ignore the entire cultural and religious heritage of the Americans and pretend there aren't any major religions that originated here and continue to exist here?

They may have a lot of wisdom, but I'm in Europe. That kind of thing isn't as known here.

Have they temples? Books? etc. Has it spread across the globe to become the dominant culture of non-Americans?

I mean those kinds of religions.

 

[HonestJoe]

Given my OP specified east of the Americas and Europe, I thought it's obvious.

As I suggested in my first reply, the point is that our Eurocentric view of the world isn't really relevant when you're talking about that far back in history. The whole idea of western and eastern hemispheres is entirely manufactured and the dividing line arbitrary. You might as well ask why all the major religions developed in the northern hemisphere rather than the southern. At least that has a real geographic dividing line.

As it happens, that arbitrary division came about due to the dominance of Europe during the later period, and that was also due to a diverse set of factors, natural, man-made and random just as the prior dominance of the "East" was previously. And while the Abrahamic religions originated in the Middle East, Christianity largely developed in Europe and spread around the world due to European colonisation. It is really the only religion that spread that widely and extensively prior to the modern era.

 

[Quintessence]

They may have a lot of wisdom, but I'm in Europe. That kind of thing isn't as known here.

Have they temples? Books? etc. Has it spread across the globe to become the dominant culture of non-Americans?

I mean those kinds of religions.

So in a way you are asking why only some religions bully themselves into a position of cultural dominance through various means? I'm frankly glad it is only some of them... lol.

 

[Rival]

So in a way you are asking why only some religions bully themselves into a position of cultural dominance through various means? I'm frankly glad it is only some of them... lol.

I suppose.

The reason is because we no longer possess much native European wisdom; all of it is post-Christian save what archaeology etc. can uncover. These cultures lost when it came to staying alive through passing their wisdom to their descendants, and good ways of doing this is through building and writing; things that last thousands of years. Instead we know many native cultures didn't do this, and that's fine as long as a stronger culture isn't coming in to culturally genocide them, which is what I feel the Romans and later Christianised Romans did. Now European history starts at the Roman Period, with everything else consigned to pre-history. How unfair.

Their traditions, beliefs and wisdoms are gone.

Essentially if we'd have got there first with the missionizing we'd have kept our culture.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They may have a lot of wisdom, but I'm in Europe. That kind of thing isn't as known here.

Have they temples? Books? etc. Has it spread across the globe to become the dominant culture of non-Americans?

I mean those kinds of religions.

From the founding of Canada until 1997, Canada - in partnership with Christian churches of most denominations - maintained a system of residential schools for indigenous children that were intended to, in the words of our first prime minister "take the Indian out of the child."

Speaking of languages other than English and French was punishable by beatings. Traditional skills and beliefs were not taught.

The process to restore this lost traditional knowledge is a very new thing and has a long way to go.

Similar things happened in the US.

Canadian Indian residential school system - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Quintessence]

I suppose.

The reason is because we no longer possess much native European wisdom; all of it is post-Christian save what archaeology etc. can uncover. These cultures lost when it came to staying alive through passing their wisdom to their descendants, and good ways of doing this is through building and writing; things that last thousands of years. Instead we know many native cultures didn't do this, and that's fine as long as a stronger culture isn't coming in to culturally genocide them, which is what I feel the Romans and later Christianised Romans did. Now European history starts at the Roman Period, with everything else consigned to pre-history. How unfair.

Their traditions, beliefs and wisdoms are gone.

Yes and no.

The interesting thing about indigenous religions is that a lot of the wisdom comes not from human persons, but other-than-human persons. And they are largely still around. For those will and able to spend the time watching and listening and paying attention, the wisdom of the other-than-human ancestors is still there to get to know. This is one of the lessons that has come out of my time with OBOD - the tradition is very well aware it is "modern" and "reconstructed," but does that actually matter and is that really the only way to look at it? Wisdom is wisdom. We can either bemoan that we don't have unbroken traditions - something that will always and inevitably happen over time given change is a fundamental constant of our world - or we can stop, take a look around at what we have now and let that wisdom flow through us as it did for our ancestors. Talk to the trees. Sit in the grass with the wind. Pay attention. Not having the elders can be a shame, but we can still share what we learn with each other and build something that is relevant for the lives we live now.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yeah, I am just really baffled by the OP if I'm honest. Like, I know that indigenous Americans get hardly any coverage in public education, but... really? Are we really just going to ignore the entire cultural and religious heritage of the Americans and pretend there aren't any major religions that originated here and continue to exist here?

I was kind of lucky cuz in my school they taught about indigenous nations and I found many of the religions very interesting particularly the Longhouse religion among others.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes and no.

The interesting thing about indigenous religions is that a lot of the wisdom comes not from human persons, but other-than-human persons. And they are largely still around. For those will and able to spend the time watching and listening and paying attention, the wisdom of the other-than-human ancestors is still there to get to know. This is one of the lessons that has come out of my time with OBOD - the tradition is very well aware it is "modern" and "reconstructed," but does that actually matter and is that really the only way to look at it? Wisdom is wisdom. We can either bemoan that we don't have unbroken traditions - something that will always and inevitably happen over time given change is a fundamental constant of our world - or we can stop, take a look around at what we have now and let that wisdom flow through us as it did for our ancestors. Talk to the trees. Sit in the grass with the wind. Pay attention. Not having the elders can be a shame, but we can still share what we learn with each other and build something that is relevant for the lives we live now.

In the case of indigenous peoples, we're often talking about people who have been forcibly displaced to completely different ecosystems than where they traditionally lived.

The most famous example of this is the "Trail of Tears," where indigenous nations living in coastal Florida were forced to arid Oklahoma, but there are lots of others.

... so while everyone has an environment around them to pay attention to, for many indigenous people, the specific "other-than-human persons" their ancestors interacted with aren't still around.

 

[RestlessSoul]

I suppose.

The reason is because we no longer possess much native European wisdom; all of it is post-Christian save what archaeology etc. can uncover. These cultures lost when it came to staying alive through passing their wisdom to their descendants, and good ways of doing this is through building and writing; things that last thousands of years. Instead we know many native cultures didn't do this, and that's fine as long as a stronger culture isn't coming in to culturally genocide them, which is what I feel the Romans and later Christianised Romans did. Now European history starts at the Roman Period, with everything else consigned to pre-history. How unfair.

Their traditions, beliefs and wisdoms are gone.

Essentially if we'd have got there first with the missionizing we'd have kept our culture.

History in Western Europe starts with the Romans because literacy here starts with them. So the study of pre-Roman Britain, for example, is the calling of archeologists rather than historians.

It’s not that the ancient Britons left nothing to study; Stonehenge is a fairly iconic structure, and the lesser known Avebury Ring is arguably even more impressive. But we don’t have the same insight into the lives of Bronze Age Britons as we do Bronze Age Greeks, because if there was a Homer (or an Aristotle or Socrates) he wrote nothing down.

None of that explains, though, why Greco/Roman religious beliefs and practices were eclipsed by those of another literate culture, from only slightly further east.

 

[Rival]

But we don’t have the same insight into the lives of Bronze Age Britons as we do Bronze Age Greeks, because if there was a Homer (or an Aristotle or Socrates) he wrote nothing down.

This is what makes me mad; it's as though they didn't care or lived in a naïve world.

The Jews, Christians, Muslims, Dharmics, Daoists, Confucians, Zoroastrians and others have their holy writings. These are compounded by great works like the Talmud, Church Fathers, Hadith, and other such traditions.

And we have some longbarrows.

 

[bobhikes]

Why are all major religions from the East?

Even historically, Rome was full of Mirtha-worshippers and Manichaeans.

Why hasn't the West (Europe, the Americas etc.) produced any religions the likes of Islam or Zoroastrianism?

I'm not talking about small Pagan religions followed by a small amount of people who are essentially re-inventing it.

We just didn't seem to create anything on that scale and pass it along.

Religions are pushed by governments and military wins. You can't get the land, buildings and money you need without government support. Small governments could never support the growth of religions and that is what Europe had at the time of religious formulations. Look at each Religion that spread over the world and you will find a government or military organization that pushed it. To conquer you need the strength, hearts and mind of the populace. Religion provides government with support for this.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I'm not talking about small Pagan religions followed by a small amount of people who are essentially re-inventing it.

If you don't mind a different perspective:

Wicca has been influential enough to completely transform modern paganism. Go into the occult/spiritual/religious section of a bookstore or library, and many of the books are very much Wicca-based or influenced by it. Gerald Gardner himself was instrumental in changing attitudes about "witchcraft" and bringing the term, for better and worse, into the mainstream.

I haven't checked this source, but according to it (in 2012) Wicca was the largest religion besides Christianity in the air force:

"In the Air Force, Wicca — witchcraft — is the largest non-Christian faith, with 1,434 followers. The breakdown of other religious minorities: 1,271 Buddhists, 1,148 Jews, 678 Muslims and 190 Hindus."

https://archive.ph/20120718015454/http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/01/airforce_religion_011610w/

It is federally recognized: Wicca

I'd call Wicca a major religion developed in the West, at least from an influential standpoint.

 

[The Hammer]

Ideologies also have to fight for their survival along with the cultures that invent them. The more successfully predatory cultures and ideologies are often the ones that survive.

The Chinese had developed flash powder a thousand years before the Europeans ever saw it. But the moment the Europeans saw it, they immediately thought to weaponize it. Something that had not occurred to the Chinese in a thousand years. The more warlike culture was better suited to using it for conquest.

And the same thing happened when the Europeans discovered the Americas. Rape, rob, murder and pillage was part of their way of life. And part of their religion. And as a result, they were very good at it.

The Chinese were using it as a weapon as soon as it was discovered as well.

 

[Rival]

If you don't mind a different perspective:

Wicca has been influential enough to completely transform modern paganism. Go into the occult/spiritual/religious section of a bookstore or library, and many of the books are very much Wicca-based or influenced by it. Gerald Gardner himself was instrumental in changing attitudes about "witchcraft" and bringing the term, for better and worse, into the mainstream.

I haven't checked this source, but according to it (in 2012) Wicca was the largest religion besides Christianity in the air force:

"In the Air Force, Wicca — witchcraft — is the largest non-Christian faith, with 1,434 followers. The breakdown of other religious minorities: 1,271 Buddhists, 1,148 Jews, 678 Muslims and 190 Hindus."

https://archive.ph/20120718015454/http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2010/01/airforce_religion_011610w/

It is federally recognized: Wicca

I'd call Wicca a major religion developed in the West, at least from an influential standpoint.

It's 20th c. and he is not very good with ancient source material.

 

[The Hammer]

It's 20th c. and he is not very good with ancient source material.

Still can't deny the influence.

 

[Rival]

Still can't deny the influence.

Sure, but I'm not discussing modern ones.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Sure, but I'm not discussing modern ones.

My mistake then, I assumed you meant in general.