Why NOT Religion

[Maximilian]

That certainly cannot be true, since here am I, an atheist and ASD free, thank you very much.

I wasn't aware of your ASD test results until now but thank you for sharing them

 

[Maximilian]

Always love the "No true Scotsman" type of argument, but since every Christian sect does its level best to interpret Christ's teachings, as, I feel sure, do many individual Christians, I have to accept that those "teachings" are so unclear as to be dangerous.

With the code of conduct he supplied his loyal ones, Christ drew a bright line and then announced that absolutely everyone on the other side is not a Christian.

So wholly devoted to this code would these be that all non-Christian world-views/conduct would be effortlessly recognized. (Malachi 3:18 cf. Titus 1:16)

These preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.

Meaning that, just as we are able to distinguish genuine legal tender apart from Monopoly money, any sincere person can make a distinction between a Christian and an Anti-Christian (Satanist).

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

"Wikipedia is not a reliable source." -Wikipedia

I have others, but they are in print, and I decline to offer to type them up here...

And while I know that you look only at the religiously based sources, because you think that they are always reliable, I put it to you that they are usually much more driven by a religious than a scholarly motive...that is, they want their beliefs "proven" more than they want to know what's true.

Still, how about from the New World Encyclopedia.

Traditionally, the Book of Daniel was believed to have been written by its namesake during and shortly after the Babylonian captivity in the sixth century B.C.E. Although this view continues to be held by traditionalist Christians and Jews, it has been discredited by critical scholars. These scholars propose that much of the book was written after Antiochus IV Epiphanes desecrated the altar of the Temple of Jerusalem around 167 B.C.E. In this view, Daniel was written in reaction to that incident. This theory also explains why the writer(s) seems so confused about the history of the kings of Babylon and Persia, when Daniel himself, living at that very time, would not have been. Textual issues are also cited in support of a late date, and issues of its unity are also raised. Some of Daniel is written in Aramaic while the majority is in Hebrew; and it appears to be a collection of legends and visions, rather than the account of single writer.

The critical view thus affirms that, rather than being a prophecy of a time to come, the book actually sought to explain the spiritual meaning of the history already experienced by the Jews of the second century. It may have been used by the supporters of the Maccabeean revolt to mobilize popular support for their cause, which was ultimately successful in conquering Jerusalem and rededicating the Temple.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I wasn't aware of your ASD test results until now but thank you for sharing them

Looking less and less like the "Christian" you seem to be promulgating...the level of insinuation seems to me quite unbecoming. Perhaps it's time you did a little introspection...

 

[Maximilian]

And while I know that you look only at the religiously based sources, because you think that they are always reliable, I put it to you that they are usually much more driven by a religious than a scholarly motive...that is, they want their beliefs "proven" more than they want to know what's true.

I see what you're saying because Atheists don't have an agenda neither have they ever rabidly persecuted Theists . . . oh . . . wait . . .

 

[Maximilian]

Looking less and less like the "Christian" you seem to be promulgating...the level of insinuation seems to me quite unbecoming. Perhaps it's time you did a little introspection...

Insinuation? What are you talking about?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I see what you're saying because Atheists don't have an agenda neither have they ever rabidly persecuted Theists . . . oh . . . wait . . .

Okay, time to hit the history books. Please provide any sources that you can, from history, of "atheists with an agenda rabidly persecuting theists."

You might try a Google search like "atheists persecute theists," but I promise you, what you will get is a long list of precisely the opposite, i.e. atheists persecuted BY theists. But please, do have a go. History is important.

I can wait.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Insinuation? What are you talking about?

You specifically mentioned "your ASD tests," as if there was some reason that I should have had such a thing, and as if there was some reason that I needed to share them with you. Here's your quote: "I wasn't aware of your ASD test results until now but thank you for sharing them."

Now, I have also not had tests for sickle cell anemia, nor for lung cancer, nor testicular cancer, nor for a huge host of other things. And why not? Because in the absence of any symptomology of any of those things, there is no reason to go to the huge expense of testing for them. The same with ASD. Your post insinuated, quite plainly, actually, that you though there was a need. Now, this I find to be a bit bothersome, since I have lived 71 years, been seen (in person, not on the internet) by many, many physicians (trained, as I suspect you are not) who never supposed there was any reason I should be tested.

That's what I'm talking about when I say "insinuation." I'm talking about what you are doing. You should do yourself the favour of at least trying to be aware of it, while you're doing it.

 

[Maximilian]

Okay, time to hit the history books. Please provide any sources that you can, from history, of "atheists with an agenda rabidly persecuting theists."

You might try a Google search like "atheists persecute theists," but I promise you, what you will get is a long list of precisely the opposite, i.e. atheists persecuted BY theists. But please, do have a go. History is important.

I can wait.

You mean China doesn't currently have approximately 1,000,000 Theists in "re-education" (concentration) camps in Xinjiang?

 

[Maximilian]

You specifically mentioned "your ASD tests," as if there was some reason that I should have had such a thing, and as if there was some reason that I needed to share them with you. Here's your quote: "I wasn't aware of your ASD test results until now but thank you for sharing them."

First, given that research shows that 'high functioning autism is an extreme cognitive processing style that predisposes towards Atheism and Agnosticism' I can see why any staunch atheist would have themselves checked out.

Second, when someone claims they don't have ASD what they're communicating is that they've had themselves assessed and their results ruled it out because, you know, ASD is a medical diagnosis . . .

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You mean China doesn't currently have approximately 1,000,000 Theists in "re-education" (concentration) camps in Xinjiang?

Okay, so once again, can you tell us that this is all it is. Beijing has identified a million people as "theists," and said, "for this reason, and for this reason alone, we are sending you for 'reeducation.'"

I wonder, are you capable of understanding political nuance, or is everything to you just theists/atheists battling it out until whatever Armageddon you prefer?

How many histories of China have you read? How strong is your understanding of political differences on matters like private or state control of the means of production? I have to assume that you are not all that familiar, because of your tendency to simplify everything down to nothing but a battle between believers and non-believers in God.

And finally this: to the best of your knowledge, is China's agenda aimed at atheism, or something else?" I ask, because that is precisely what you imply, that they don't care about the political attitudes of those they have incarcerated, only in whether they have religious beliefs.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

First, given that research shows that 'high functioning autism is an extreme cognitive processing style that predisposes towards Atheism and Agnosticism' I can see why any staunch atheist would have themselves checked out.

Second, when someone claims they don't have ASD what they're communicating is that they've had themselves assessed and their results ruled it out because, you know, ASD is a medical diagnosis . . .

At which I tell you...well, I'd best be careful and ask whether you still think of yourself as following Christ? Because the insinuation is still there, only now you've made it a little stronger, and have included an entirely specious connection between a lack of belief in deities and a particular brain disorder, and you have nothing upon which to base that except your own prejudices.

Frankly, I think you should be ashamed of yourself. I doubt you have the capacity.

 

[Maximilian]

At which I tell you...well, I'd best be careful and ask whether you still think of yourself as following Christ? Because the insinuation is still there, only now you've made it a little stronger, and have included an entirely specious connection between a lack of belief in deities and a particular brain disorder, and you have nothing upon which to base that except your own prejudices.

Frankly, I think you should be ashamed of yourself. I doubt you have the capacity.

And research shows that 'high functioning autism is an extreme cognitive processing style that predisposes towards Atheism and Agnosticism.'

 

[Maximilian]

Okay, so once again, can you tell us that this is all it is. Beijing has identified a million people as "theists," and said, "for this reason, and for this reason alone, we are sending you for 'reeducation.'".

Tell that to all of the people murdered in those camps . . .

 

[Mock Turtle]

Here's the study. Feel free to go through it.

One study. Low samples. No mention of intelligence being a variable. Graduates used - typical problem with many studies. Were they diagnosed as being on the ASD spectrum or self-diagnosed? Should I take it at face value? No.

 

[Mock Turtle]

So far as your suggestion that Theists are not intelligent-

"To my surprise, I found substantial knowledge and deep insight in the pages of the Bible. I was fascinated with researching the scientific accuracy of the Bible and the fulfillment of hundreds of detailed prophecies applying to events occurring over thousands of years of human history. I was especially impressed by how the integration of multiple Bible prophecies—in the books of Daniel and Revelation—provides a solid basis for determining that we live in “the last days.”—2 Timothy 3:1.

In studying the Bible, I was unknowingly in excellent company. I later learned that Sir Isaac Newton, regarded as one of the greatest scientific geniuses of all time, admired and intensely researched the Bible. Like Newton, I focused on prophecies in Daniel and Revelation that foretold major historical events and developments that have actually occurred. However, I had the distinct advantage of living during and after the realization of the many prophecies that have been fulfilled since Newton’s day. I discovered that these prophecies are amazingly diverse and extensive as well as unerring and undeniable. It was an eye-opener to realize that the entire Bible, penned by more than 40 men over a period of 1,600 years, contains an internally consistent, coherent, and compelling message concerning the major issues facing humankind and its future.

Letting go of my belief in evolution did not come without resistance, however. I respected the substantial weight of scientific authority backing up this theory. Nevertheless, I discovered that all Bible statements about the physical world are entirely consistent with known facts and cannot be disproved. I came to appreciate that in order to achieve a complete, cohesive understanding of the Bible’s extensive, interrelated contents, one cannot discount a single teaching, including the creation account in Genesis. I therefore discerned that acceptance of the entire Bible as truth was the only reasonable conclusion." -Dr. Kenneth Tanaka - Former Atheist

Here is the prophecy in Daniel Dr. Tanaka referenced.

One person. Look for the evidence online for the numbers of scientists, or any likely to have high intelligence (not necessarily in a country dominated by religious beliefs - like the USA, where it might skew results, but where religion or no religion is freely the norm) choose to have no religious beliefs.

And I didn't say that theists were not intelligent. It seems that those with higher intelligence (and/or better educated) are more likely to be less religious. Something quite different.

 

[Mock Turtle]

It seems you don't believe in personal responsibility.

Oh I do. I just don't believe our morality originally stems from religions - predating them by some time. They encode what was existing previously and erroneously tied this to belief in some stick-wielding god perhaps to give such morality more authority. Which was a big mistake, since we have what we have now. Lots of different religions all claiming to be The Truth and backed up by a load of nonsense invented for the purpose.

I have no objection to any belief in God or gods, and would want a society where all such beliefs were freely allowed and tolerated without condemnation (as long as they didn't infringe the freedoms of others) - many countries seem to not think so though. What I object to - and which is why I am against the religions supposedly coming from a divine source - is their claiming of the moral high ground - instead of admitting that our morals actually predate religions. If we separated moral behaviour from belief in God or gods - a morality that we should be able to consensually arrive at - then we might find a more peaceful existence for us all. A pipedream I know - since the mistakes we made long ago, and still are making, will probably be our downfall.

 

[Mock Turtle]

On what objective moral basis do you dare condemn anyone's moral values? Who made you God Almighty?

That's rich coming from JW-world, which, like many religious beliefs does claim to have The Truth (I don't). What is so very different from the JW views on morality - which can seem just as arbitrary as any other religion - when they all basically come down to reinterpretations of stuff written long ago. How different is the following from many other religions? Not get it right first time around?

Development of Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine - Wikipedia

Not know that blood transfusions save countless lives every day?

 

[Quintessence]

You misrepresented Christians here and it's unclear if you did so out of ignorance or not.

You believe that I misrepresented Christians. I'm unaware of any case where I've done so in this thread. I have a suspicion I know what is going on here - a "no true scotsman" on your part - but don't expect me to get on that logical fallacy bandwagon.

 

[Maximilian]

One study. Low samples. No mention of intelligence being a variable. Graduates used - typical problem with many studies. Were they diagnosed as being on the ASD spectrum or self-diagnosed? Should I take it at face value? No.

No one likes to be faced with their limitations so you're reticence to accept the facts of your ASD is perfectly understandable.