Why? (Rant)

[Cynic]

Why do the jerks get the women? Just why? Please answer that question, I seriously would love to know.

First of all, attraction is not a choice, it is a reflexive response. People do not choose who they want to be attracted to (and unfortunately logic is not included in attraction). It's not that women are attracted to jerks, it's that they are attracted to men that stimulate that response.

I actually try to know a person, try to understand her, try to actually love her.

Men who are sensitive, caring, good listeners, but also who get very attached, communicate to women on a subtle level that they are “weak“, and thus do not stimulate attraction. More then likely you will just be her friend that she calls every time her abusive boyfriend hurts her, etc.

I’ve done some research, and I am going to give you the gist of what I THINK is the underlying thing working behind the scenes here. This is a conclusion that I came to through personal experiences and research. I have been told that I am very attractive, as far as looks goes (I get hit on a lot). However, I have been unsuccessful when it comes to relationships. I had the same problems as you, and often women would say that they just couldn't feel attracted to me (even though they wanted to be). Yes, I've heard all the lines a girl could possibly say, "You are like a brother to me", etc.

Women are attracted to POWER, and by this I do not mean political power, I mean masculinity. There are ways to communicate this, and it is through body language and many other things. It is not what you say to a woman, it is HOW you say it.

Women are "intuitive" or they have more of an ability to read you. If you are nervous around women, they can tell by the way you speak to them.

From the April 2005 issue of Scientific American Mind, page 81: “Women tend to be better than men in judging the character of others, as well as expressing empathy for them. The reason, says British psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen of the University of Cambridge, is that from childhood on, girls are instructed to be sensitive to the feeling of others and to offer consolidation when warranted. This type of socialization helps to hone senses, intuition, and observational skills. Women are more likely to make decisions based on “gut feelings” -- or better yet, on “amygdala feelings”. And finally, women draw on their language centers more than men. As a result women are often better at verbalizing and therefore have an easier time in gaining emotional access to other people.”

A man who communicates that he has power, is communicating that he is a superior, strong male, that has superior genes, and therefore he becomes a potential mate. A man who communicates that he has weaknesses, is communicating that he is average, has average genes, and therefore is less of a potential mate.

For example, when you ask a girl out on a date, and she asks you where you both should go, a sensitive and caring male might say, “I’m not sure, I think we should both decide”. Now the guy’s intentions are good, but unfortunately by not being assertive he is not communicating that he has power but he is communicating on subtle levels that he has weakness. She is much more attracted to men who make the decisions and are assertive and CONFIDENT.

Or say for example, you find yourself very attracted to a beautiful girl, almost captivated and taken (weakened) by her beauty. Complimenting her by saying that she is beautiful will not stimulate attraction because she receives compliments all the time on a daily basis. You are communicating that you are an average male. In actuality, women (very beautiful women) give more respect to men that find faults rather than give compliments because it communicates that you have higher standards and thus you are a superior male.

And yet, some jerk will come along, who cares nothing for her, beyond the physical, and will toy with her. I mean, seriously, when the guy doesn't call for a week and a half, do you think he really loves you? Why complain to me, it's already obvious that he doesn't care! But that's what really burns me. They will complain to me. As if I can really tell them what they should do. But noooo, I'm forced to make up excuses for the guy, because that's what the women wants to hear! Some people might say that you probably just don't know the guys, they probably aren't jerks. Well guess what, when I've known them since they were nine, I can determine if they are a jerk. And believe me, the vast majority of men do seem to be jerks.

Men who are Jerks are often very assertive and confident/arrogant. Therefore they stimulate a response, meanwhile the nice guy does not stimulate any sexual attraction. Attraction does not take logic, and it is not a choice, so unfortunately many women will find themselves attracted to abusive boyfriends --and they have no control over this reflex--.

The jerks are almost comical. Pick her up, date her for a couple weeks, which was just long enough to get her in bed, and then leave. Leave me to pick up the pieces. This has happened twice! Why am I the guy who picks up the pieces? Why? I mean, I try so hard to be nice, to be empathetic and sympathetic, to understand what they say, where they are coming from, to learn about them, their history, their wants, their desires, their longings, what they want to do, what their favorite magazine is, and everything else about them.

This I believe, is because you have been taught or had somehow learned to be sympathetic and empathetic towards women by influences such as family or say religion. You consider trying to sleep with a girl a moral issue and that it is wrong.

I try to find someone whom I can appreciate both physically, and mentally. Someone I can talk to well. And yet, it seems that this person always chooses the jerk. Dammit! Why do you punish yourselves? Why?!?!!?!

They can’t help it.

In the end, I'm stuck with that one sentence that feels worse than anything else. "You know, you're like a brother to me." Or, "I've always respected you so much, you really are a great friend.".

Because you are not doing things to stimulate your wanted response.

You might think you're giving a compliment, but trust me, you're not. You're kicking all of us men who actually care in the crotch. But we're too nice to tell you. We actually think about your feelings, unlike the jerks you choose. So we take it; we sit there and take it, all the while wishing that we weren't too nice to be jerks, and maybe get a girl for once. Dammit...

You don’t have to be a jerk to attract women. You just have to GET women and gain certain “skill sets” in order to attract them.

 

[Ryan2065]

Cynic, how old are you?

I ask because you base your "research" on your past experiences. I asked a girl once why last guys finish last. She said this. "Younger girls see a nice guy and they see someone they can settle down with. They don't want this. They want someone they can travel with and be wild with. When they get older, they start wanting to settle down, and then the nice guys get those girls."

I do think that this explains alot...

 

[kreeden]

Well , it is good that we have a couple of women willing to speak up . Without you Draka and LC , we are just a bunch of guys trying to figure women out .... yea , big chance of thatr happening eh ?

Now Druidus , carefully read Draka's and LC's post and you will have your answer . Women don't know what they want ... JUST JOKING !!! But people are all looking for different things , or the same thing , in different wrappings .

I agree with what LC says , at your age at lest . If you are a friend , perhaps you are too close to be more then that . Depending upon what the lady is looking for . Does that make sense ? Nice guys can be bigger jerks that the jerks are . Jerks are expeted to hurt people . Nice guys hurt while trying to be nice . Perhaps jerks are safer , in the long run ?

Anyway , what you catch depends upon the bait you use . If you pretend to be something that you are not , expect to catch something you may not be looking for . Just be yourself . But don't try so hard . { Sound simple enough eh ? } Well , if you are ALWAYS there ..... like a brother ... perhaps you should go fishing ? Or at lest get a sign that says " Gone Fishing ".

 

[Cynic]

Cynic, how old are you?

21

I ask because you base your "research" on your past experiences. I asked a girl once why last guys finish last. She said this. "Younger girls see a nice guy and they see someone they can settle down with. They don't want this. They want someone they can travel with and be wild with. When they get older, they start wanting to settle down, and then the nice guys get those girls."

I do think that this explains alot...

My research is not based on past experiences, my research is based on psychology, neurology, and theories such as evolution and natural selection. My conclusion is subjective and it is based on both my research and personal experiences. The statement that the girl gave you I think is true, but there is much more to it then that on a psychological level. Most girls don't know what they want, because attraction is not a cognitive thing, it is reflexive. The amydgala plays the deciding factor when it comes to sexual and emotional response. There are certian behaviors in men that trigger that response in women. I dunno, Just trying to put my input in, in an effort to help.

 

[Cynic]

Here is one example of an experience that I had. There was a girl that I had met at bible study months before I left for the military. She had written by letter since basic training. The last time I had ever talked to her was in February 2005. When I arrived at my duty station, I began to write her often. We were both writing to eachother a lot, the emails were accumulating to about 8-15 a day (ya...). I had feelings for her. I shared much of the same views that Druidus described. I was a very devout Christain and I wanted to treat women with love, support, and the utmost respect. I was very unselfish, and gave a lot, whether it was money or support. At that time, I was praying to God that I could meet someone, that basically He would bring someone into my life, a woman who loved God just as much as I did and who would treat me with the same love, support, respect that I would treat them (I really wanted a wife). In past experiences, I had been abused and neglected by women. I thought that this girl was heaven sent. Anyways, we had started calling each other, in which phone calls soon replaced emails. I cared about her a lot, and whenever she was emotionally distressed, I would stay up at about 2:00 am in the morning to call her and make sure that she was okay, despite that I had to go to work at 6:00 am in the morning (it was a 9 hour difference). She even mentioned that the first thing that came to her mind when she woke up was me, or at least she wanted to know what I was doing at that time. She was even going using the computers at lunch to email me, I think it's safe to say that it got carried away in that aspect. She admitted that she had a crush on me before. I found out later that she had just gotten out of a relationship with a guy who claimed to be Christian, but when she visited him, things did not go well. (Found out later that she ended up cheating on him with another guy). Well she would tell me about how much she wanted to meet a guy that loved God and placed him first, etc. She complained about how guys were jerks and caused drama, etc. She wanted to get married, have kids etc. Well, I had finally told her my feelings about her. Her response was, was that she didn't have those same feelings --basically thought of me as a brother and wanted to keep me as a friend--. I got confused, because it seemed as though she really liked me. Long story short, it went downhill from there.

Ok...well....I have a dear friend (who is a guy) and we always talk...we can talk about everything....we have been friends for about 2 years, and recently I found out that he likes me...He had told me about it...but we were such good friends...I didn't want to spoil it...and I told him he should have mentioned it earlier, a lot earlier...Because I had come to know him as a friend who was always there to listen to me, similar to all my gal-friends...I couldn't picture him any other way.

Druidus, your mistake is that you don't tell...Tell that girl you like her before you find out to much of her previous relationship, before she becomes to comfortable with the 'friend image' of you.

Girls don't like jerks...girls just like rebellious boys...but it's a phase that passes if you put those girls minds back to their senses....If I was dating a jerk, I would personally like to be told.

When a girl is not attracted to you, there is nothing you can really do about it, except start over with a different girl. Because attraction is not a choice. It is a response to certain things that you do. When you build a relationship and she gets a general idea of you, an ideal that does not stimulate a response, she will want you to keep you as a friend. There is nothing he/she can do about it. No matter what you say or do to her she will not change her mind. There are certain things that create a sexual response in women. There are certain things that do not. Attraction is not logical, there are regions of the brain that play the deciding roles, and the frontal lobe (where conscious thought takes place) is not one of them. Attraction is something that us humans are not in full control of.

I actually completely desagree with that statement...I want a relationship first, then friendship to follow

I have some friends (who are guys)...some of which I've tryed dating...that failed miserably!...We couldn't get past our friendship...it's like a barrier that makes you laugh whenever something romantic should happen.

 

[Ryan2065]

Cynic, do any psychologists argee with your stance on this idea or is this an idea you came up with on your own based on information you gathered (wether it be from personal experience or studies)

 

[Cynic]

Cynic, do any psychologists argee with your stance on this idea or is this an idea you came up with on your own based on information you gathered (wether it be from personal experience or studies)

I think that everyone has their own specific stance, but in general my stance is not actually my own but the same conclusion that other men have come to in the dating field. Testimonials are known as anecdotal evidence and are little value in the scientific field, and so I am admitting that several things I have said so far are either subjective or based off of personal experience. Statement like, "the amygdala plays a deciding role in attraction" are facts, known in science, and come from research. My stance is heavily influenced by the theory of evolution and natural selection, and if you read books on the topic, I am sure you will come across the same ideology that I have shared.

As far as psychologist having a specific stance that they all agree on, I am not sure as to whether there is one that all psychologists go by. I am not an expert in the field. I am sharing what I have learned in an effort to help because I have been down that road and have experienced the same frustations. The things I say make sense to me and help me form a better understanding of what is going on in the natural world.

 

[Cynic]

Hmmmm... So far by reading other posts, I think Mr. Spinkles and Jewscout have a general understanding or more profound understanding of how women work. But anyhoo, what the bleep do I know?

BTW, aqcuiring "skill sets" is not about learning how to not be yourself, it's about fine-tuning yourself so that you will be more successful in what you do. You can still be youself, but you have to learn what to do and what not to do if you want to successfully attract women. The best thing you can do is go out there and experience (dating lots of women), but not have high expectations in the sense that you are going to meet your soulmate soon. Then you need to learn from these experiences and slowly build off from there.

 

[kreeden]

It would be my guess that Draka and LC has the best idea of how a woman's mind works .... but what would I know ? :biglaugh: { sorry Cynic , I'm not making fun of you . But I do believe that the two are women . }

Oh , and I agree about the skill thing . Skill is always helpfull . And how we apply that skill is what makes us who we are , not the skill .


* wonders how many psychiatrists have gone through divorce and have spent Saturday nights alone ???? *

 

[Pussyfoot Mouse]

Okay Dru, I've read what everyone has had to say about the topic of "What Women Want". :clap
The truth of the matter is, women don't want just one man, they want all men! Yes, they do, and in that I mean, women want the kind sensitive man when they need to be loved. They want a man who will make them laugh when they feel down. They want that man who is serious and responsible when it comes to future and financial plans. Women want the man who is wild and crazy when it's time to get out there and let loose because it's been a long and exhausting week.

So with this I leave you with one very good bit of information...be yourself and she will love you, because you are true!

 

[Lady Crimson]

Very true, Pussyfoot Mouse...very true! frubals!

And kreeden....I agree with you too....Frubals for thou as well!

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

I don't know if any one else has mentioned this. But in case you are not aware, the first thing women do with these 'bad boys', is try to change them. They want to be the ones who save them.

I for one do not want a 'bad boy'. And have never wanted to pursue a relationship with one. I do, however, suffer from 'lost puppy' syndrome, and will find myself trying to help some the most colorful characters.

 

[michel]

Can a woman speak up on this thread?

I have searched and searched for a "nice" guy. I have been in bad relationships and here's the thing. At the beginning these men who are jerks present only one face to the woman, which is what happened to me. They know just how to say certain things and do certain things to reel you in to where they want you. Once they have you you are hooked and then if anything goes wrong they are very convincing that it must be your fault and hence you are the one who tries to fix it...unwilling to admit that the man did something wrong...it must be "my fault", there is something I can do to fix this. That is unfortunately how it goes a lot.

I would love to have a man in my life that was exactly who he protrayed himself to be. Someone who will listen to me, be my best friend and my lover. Someone who treats me with respect and love. It is what every woman wants deep down. Something I want deep down. I want to be open and share everything with a man who wants the same with me. The only problem is trying to see past facades can be very hard to do with some men who are practiced at not being what they really are.

Maybe that is your problem - the searching, I mean.

I went through many of 'attempts' to find the right girl; when I resolved that maybe I would never be destined to find one, I started seeing many girls - Just as 'friends' - no strings attached; my wife came on the scene very soon after that.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You are trying too hard.
Women are like busses never around when you want one, but when yo get one they all come along in a cluster.
When they meet you Women don't want you to be too serious
Too ardent
Too jealous /Clinging
Too inexperienced
Too boring
They want a someone who shows that other women find him attractive.
who is a little hard to get
Got a take it or leave it attitude
Is fun to be with
Is generous
can read her signals and gives clear ones back
Can make up his own mind and make decisions.
is attentive but not all over her.
Prepared to go at her pace.
If he is a jerk as well that is a small price to pay.

Good Luck

Terry
_________________________________
Blessed are the pure of heart, they shall behold their God.

 

[michel]

You are trying too hard.
Women are like busses never around when you want one, but when yo get one they all come along in a cluster.
When they meet you Women don't want you to be too serious
Too ardent
Too jealous /Clinging
Too inexperienced
Too boring
They want a someone who shows that other women find him attractive.
who is a little hard to get
Got a take it or leave it attitude
Is fun to be with
Is generous
can read her signals and gives clear ones back
Can make up his own mind and make decisions.
is attentive but not all over her.
Prepared to go at her pace.
If he is a jerk as well that is a small price to pay.

Good Luck

Terry
_________________________________
Blessed are the pure of heart, they shall behold their God.

Also

Must have car with noisy exhaust
Boombox in the rear
Have holes in jeans
resent authority
(except for hers)
can drink her under the table
doesn't have a 'roving eye'
- heheh we could create the 'Misogynist's rule book............

 

[Melody]

Druidus,

I went through this with my oldest son when he was 18 and in his first year of college. His girlfriend was a junior in high school and she dumped him because he wouldn't have sex with her. He told her he's "not that kind of guy." (Yes!! He was listening!)

He showed me the letter she wrote to him and it basically said that he's a "nice guy"....the type you marry....but she wanted a bad boy who would (and I quote), "disrespect her, treat her rough and have wild sex with her." Personally, I think she had some serious psychological issues beyond the immaturity of her 16 years.

He's now 22 and engaged to the loveliest young lady I have ever met and they are getting married in August 2006. Oh...and by the way....they started off as friends...as did my husband and I. It's the best foundation for a long lasting relationship.

So hang in there. There are women out there who appreciate a nice guy. You just have to be patient and willing to hold out for that woman. I think too often, both men and women settle for second best because of societal pressures. Don't settle.

 

[Zlot]

Druidus,

I went through this with my oldest son when he was 18 and in his first year of college. His girlfriend was a junior in high school and she dumped him because he wouldn't have sex with her. He told her he's "not that kind of guy." (Yes!! He was listening!)

He showed me the letter she wrote to him and it basically said that he's a "nice guy"....the type you marry....but she wanted a bad boy who would (and I quote), "disrespect her, treat her rough and have wild sex with her." Personally, I think she had some serious psychological issues beyond the immaturity of her 16 years.

He's now 22 and engaged to the loveliest young lady I have ever met and they are getting married in August 2006. Oh...and by the way....they started off as friends...as did my husband and I. It's the best foundation for a long lasting relationship.

So hang in there. There are women out there who appreciate a nice guy. You just have to be patient and willing to hold out for that woman. I think too often, both men and women settle for second best because of societal pressures. Don't settle.

not that kind a guy. funny hehe. women want orgasms a multitude of various kinds.
they want the guy to know why they are upset and get mad when he asks her whats wrong because he should know.
they want an experienced lover because they will never share their feelings to a guy sexually.
they dont want a sensitive guy, they want their guy to be sensitive to their needs and feelings.
first you get the girls by being confident and when you have conquered her than you can be a jerk.

 

[Cynic]

It would be my guess that Draka and LC has the best idea of how a woman's mind works .... but what would I know ? :biglaugh: { sorry Cynic , I'm not making fun of you . But I do believe that the two are women . }

I know, I just thought that was kinda obvious, I was talking about men who understand women, not women who understand women. I do post LC's quotes to try and prove the points that I was making.

Oh , and I agree about the skill thing . Skill is always helpfull . And how we apply that skill is what makes us who we are , not the skill .


* wonders how many psychiatrists have gone through divorce and have spent Saturday nights alone ???? *

Yes it does take skill, and you have to learn what attracts women and what doesn't. It's a matter of playing the game. Guys like us want to be nice, I am a nice guy. But this unfortunately becomes a repulsing force field that makes girls bounce off. Meanwhile you are wondering why they have not become attracted to you. I think A lot of people have given vary good advice. Main thing is, is that when you are the nice guy, there are rare girls out there that may appreciate that. But you have to start seeing many girls, not set your eyes on a specific one (and then get too attatched to her). I think most women will actually respond more when you are seeing more then one women, because they are competitive, and they want a special man, not an average guy. We nice guys often find that being jerks is a moral issue, we don't want to hurt women. That's not what this is about. You have to get over that mindset. At some point, you need to live for yourself and stop being so sympathetic. What about you man? You have needs, you deserve a good women. Sometimes you have to take care of your needs BEFORE you take care of the needs of others. You have to learn how to be confident, to go after what you want.

This right here I think is also really good advice.

You are trying too hard.
Women are like busses never around when you want one, but when yo get one they all come along in a cluster.
When they meet you Women don't want you to be too serious
Too ardent
Too jealous /Clinging
Too inexperienced
Too boring
They want a someone who shows that other women find him attractive.
who is a little hard to get
Got a take it or leave it attitude
Is fun to be with
Is generous
can read her signals and gives clear ones back
Can make up his own mind and make decisions.
is attentive but not all over her.
Prepared to go at her pace.
If he is a jerk as well that is a small price to pay.

Also, do not become needy (because that also repulses women, when you show that you are needy). We nice guys need the love attention that we deserve. But we have to learn to take control of those needs, and not let them and our frustrations control us. Don't set unrealistic expectations. I used to think that every girl I was with was gonna be my soulmate. In the end you find yourself getting too attached, and this repulses women, because you show that you are needy. Most girls that run into nice guys don't know what to do, and they get confused and in turn, they make you get confused. In the end, you can still be nice, you just have to acquire skills and put your game on. You have to wear a mask, but then you can take it off and play the nice guy when things are getting serious and she is already hooked to you. The things you are doing now for that girl, are things a man would do for his wife.

 

[Ryan2065]

Yes it does take skill, and you have to learn what attracts women and what doesn't. It's a matter of playing the game. Guys like us want to be nice, I am a nice guy. But this unfortunately becomes a repulsing force field that makes girls bounce off. Meanwhile you are wondering why they have not become attracted to you. I think A lot of people have given vary good advice. Main thing is, is that when you are the nice guy, there are rare girls out there that may appreciate that. But you have to start seeing many girls, not set your eyes on a specific one (and then get too attatched to her). I think most women will actually respond more when you are seeing more then one women, because they are competitive, and they want a special man, not an average guy. We nice guys often find that being jerks is a moral issue, we don't want to hurt women. That's not what this is about. You have to get over that mindset. At some point, you need to live for yourself and stop being so sympathetic. What about you man? You have needs, you deserve a good women. Sometimes you have to take care of your needs BEFORE you take care of the needs of others. You have to learn how to be confident, to go after what you want.

Blanket assumptions about women? In my list of friends I can think of 4 women who want nice guys and not "experienced" jerks. These girls think its weird that guys think they can even kiss a girl on the 2nd date. They totally don't want experience over brains.
People here say that the nice guy has to turn into a jerk to attract the woman and then he can change back and the woman will stay with him. How many people have actually married a girl based on this strategy? I know you are still young Dru and might not be looking for a girl to "settle down" with, but the advice you are getting will get you flings and nothing more. If thats what you are looking for, go ahead.
My advice? Meet a nice girl who you like. Flirt with her and ask her out on a date. Do all of this before you become friends with her. If she likes you and likes to be friends with guys first she will say something like, "I don't know you well enough yet." If she is the type that doesn't like to date friends and she likes you she'll say yes. Theres always the chance she will say no, but who cares, you hardly know her ;-)

 

[Cynic]

Blanket assumptions about women? In my list of friends I can think of 4 women who want nice guys and not "experienced" jerks. These girls think its weird that guys think they can even kiss a girl on the 2nd date. They totally don't want experience over brains.

How experienced are these women when it comes to relationships? I think that women who are like this have gone through a lot of "experienced" jerks, are much older and by now are fed up with "jerks".

BTW I tend to go after older women, in the 25-30 range (they tend to know what they want). By then, they've been through college and have been in the real world, so they are more intelligent and experienced. Younger girls, ugh... I've had much better experiences with older women, I simply do not go after the younger girls anymore.