Why reject atheism?

[loverofhumanity]

I guess that is true as you understand things to be.

But it is not really the truth. Far from it really. Not everyone needs or even benefits from associating the conception and perception of goodness and morality with some form of god-belief.



Not so. God and Jesus are hardly necessary for love and morality to be well understood and actualized.



It is hard to tell how many of us actually "reject" God. Many of us simply lack the vocation to adopt such a concept.

And as it turns out, the Ten Commandments are of questionable clarity and value to begin with.

But whatever moral wisdom they might turn out to have is, again, not at all exclusive to their believers.



Again, that is not at all true. People find wisdom where they will. And moral principles do not need to be found in some form of acceptance of authority, let alone of divine authority.

If anything, authority is a lesser source of morality when compared to rationality and genuine good will.


That might perhaps turn out to be true if there was only one God and only one Dharma, which needed it in order to exist.

Reality, however, is entirely different from that scenario.

This is how I understand we learnt everything we know and have become all that we are. I can’t find any better words so please forgive me for using this quote but it’s how I understand the world.

The quote is from Baha’u’llah exposing how the Creative Word of God transforms society, gives birth to civilisations.

“Every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God is endowed with such potency as can instill new life into every human frame, if ye be of them that comprehend this truth.

All the wondrous works ye behold in this world have been manifested through the operation of His supreme and most exalted Will, His wondrous and inflexible Purpose.

Through the mere revelation of the word “Fashioner,” issuing forth from His lips and proclaiming His attribute to mankind, such power is released as can generate, through successive ages, all the manifold arts which the hands of man can produce. This, verily, is a certain truth. No sooner is this resplendent word uttered, than its animating energies, stirring within all created things, give birth to the means and instruments whereby such arts can be produced and perfected. All the wondrous achievements ye now witness are the direct consequences of the Revelation of this Name. In the days to come, ye will, verily, behold things of which ye have never heard before.”

In like manner, the moment the word expressing My attribute “The Omniscient” issueth forth from My mouth, every created thing will, according to its capacity and limitations, be invested with the power to unfold the knowledge of the most marvelous sciences, and will be empowered to manifest them in the course of time at the bidding of Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Knowing.

(Gleanings from Writings of Baha’u’llah)

The source of inspiration of all scientists and discoveries as well as inventions is the Manifestation of God for each age.

So since Baha’u’llah came announcing the time for the unity of mankind has arrived, all the forces, scientific and technological have brought the world closer towards that goal. All the forces of the world serve the Manifestation to bring about the unity of mankind. We are now a global village, in the process of becoming a world civilisation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As to where do you think, Christianity came from if not from Israel. You do know the first Christian were of Israel. The disciples were Jews of Israel, and the disciples were first to be called Christians.

So why do you suppose Christians and Israel has such close ties to each other.
Maybe it's because Christians are one of those 10 tribes of Israel ?

In case you do not know, that in Israel there are only two tribes left in Israel,
So where do you suppose some of those 10 tribes went to in the world ?

Look Israel of it's self, wanted to keep the laws of Moses, But the other 10 tribes, accepted Christ as their Messiah that was prophesized to come, so they pick up the name Christ, and establish the name Christian, to establish themselves as the followers of Christ.
So now in the world you have Christians. Who proclaim they are the followers of Christ.

I do have some questions for you...

1. How is the bible the word of god?
In history, the bible was written by men. If I wrote a book that I experienced god (as many already have) its no difference than the experiences from Moses and Pauls day.

2. How are their experiences more correct?
(Its only been 2500 or some odd years ago "and" we still see the contination of that history via the Church. We wouldnt think anyone today can speak for god. Timeline doesnt void spirituality)

3. Where in the OT anyone promoted human sacrifice to god?
If the New Testement is a reflection of the old, why wasnt there a pattern of human sacrifice?....god stopped abraham for actually sacrificing his child.

4. How was jesus words the words of Moses (outside the claim in scripture) when Moses and the Jews never had human sacrifice?

I mean, that sounds so roman to me, I dont know muchbmore barbaric one can get: being blunt because I disagree with human sacrifice for ANY reason

5. How is seeing a guy die in order for you to be saved positive?

Think about it. When someone sacrifices themselves, they give up something of extreme value. Jesus did not have that. So, you are not believing in a sacrifice but the actual death of christ. He gave up nothing.

I dont know another way to phrase it. Kind of like throwing someone to the lions and when that person is stred to pieaces, people feel guilty and start sacrificing themselves to mirror the pain of the person they killed in order to reconcille themselves with the deceased and with themselves. Theres got to be another way....

Quoting from scripture -does not work- because you are quoting from the apostles, the Church, and their view of jesus. Jesus wrote nothing. Its all second and third hand.

So that leads back to my first question,

How is the bible the word of god?

That, and why is it the fault of someones heart-intellegence when they see error in the bible where you do not?

 

[LuisDantas]

@loverofhumanity , may I invite you to participate in this thread?

The various roles of God and Theism, and why we should remind ourselves of their variety

 

[LuisDantas]

This is how I understand we learnt everything we know and have become all that we are. I can’t find any better words so please forgive me for using this quote but it’s how I understand the world.

I think there is a mistake of some consequence happening here.

It is one thing for a person to attribute good things to a God that he or she believes in.

It does not follow that those who do not share that inclination will be somehow more distant from those good things.

And, of course, there is also the very real possibility that people will not agree on which things are good. But even allowing for that, it is not only possible but actually very common and arguably easier for people to attain morality and virtue without a god-belief.

Some people feel god-belief to be helpful in those pursuits, and for all I know it actually is helpful for many people. But certainly not for all.

(...)

The source of inspiration of all scientists and discoveries as well as inventions is the Manifestation of God for each age.

If that turns out to be the truth, then we all must accept that for whatever reason God does not want us to uniformly know or accept that as truth. It is, after all, not at all apparent from the observable facts and logic.

So since Baha’u’llah came announcing the time for the unity of mankind has arrived, all the forces, scientific and technological have brought the world closer towards that goal. All the forces of the world serve the Manifestation to bring about the unity of mankind. We are now a global village, in the process of becoming a world civilisation.

Since Bahaullah? Not before him?

In any case, that is a belief, not demonstrable fact. People are entitled to simply disagree with this that you are saying above.

 

[LuisDantas]

Ten thousand times is a lie!

You know, I would think that a self-described Christian would have a little more respect for the concepts of "truth" and "lie".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So there is nothing more to a human civilization than the aggregate of individuals living and dying to the best of their ability?

I'm not sure what you mean by "nothing more." The consitituent parts of a civilization are people. What else did you have in mind?

 

[sayak83]

I'm not sure what you mean by "nothing more." The consitituent parts of a civilization are people. What else did you have in mind?

Whole greater than sum of its parts type of thing.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Atheism, at least when embraced by government regimes, account for arguably more deaths than religion.

That is a good reason to reject totalitarianism, not necessarily atheism. For the same reason that the abuses of Theocratic government is not a reason for rejecting theistic belief, but theocratic government

 

[LuisDantas]

Whole greater than sum of its parts type of thing.

Isn't that perhaps an arbitrary call?

A shoe is more than the sum of its parts. But then again maybe it is not. It depends on expectations, value judgment and perception.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think there is a mistake of some consequence happening here.

It is one thing for a person to attribute good things to a God that he or she believes in.

It does not follow that those who do not share that inclination will be somehow more distant from those good things.

And, of course, there is also the very real possibility that people will not agree on which things are good. But even allowing for that, it is not only possible but actually very common and arguably easier for people to attain morality and virtue without a god-belief.

Some people feel god-belief to be helpful in those pursuits, and for all I know it actually is helpful for many people. But certainly not for all.



If that turns out to be the truth, then we all must accept that for whatever reason God does not want us to uniformly know or accept that as truth. It is, after all, not at all apparent from the observable facts and logic.


Since Bahaullah? Not before him?

In any case, that is a belief, not demonstrable fact. People are entitled to simply disagree with this that you are saying above.

All the Manifestations had a certain theme for their age which determined the spirit of that age. Not only Baha’u’llah. He is the One Who has come to foster and encourage fellowship and world unity for this age.

Just as without the physical sun life on earth could not exist so too we believe that spiritual life is dependant on these Spiritual Suns. Buddha, Krishna, Jesus are some of these Suns of Reality.

 

[loverofhumanity]

@loverofhumanity , may I invite you to participate in this thread?

The various roles of God and Theism, and why we should remind ourselves of their variety

Thank you. I’ll be there soon.

 

[sayak83]

Isn't that perhaps an arbitrary call?

A shoe is more than the sum of its parts. But then again maybe it is not. It depends on expectations, value judgment and perception.

It's objectively true for something like a living cell, a crystal, or the brain-mind. Question is whether it's true for our civilization.

 

[Prestor John]

That is a good reason to reject totalitarianism, not necessarily atheism. For the same reason that the abuses of Theocratic government is not a reason for rejecting theistic belief, but theocratic government

Great distinction.

Could you please share this with all those idiotic atheists who keep falsely claiming that religion is the number one cause of war and suffering and what-not?

Those are the only atheists I take issue with.

 

[Pudding]

How can someone reject the failure to believe in a or any proposed deity?

Saying it is a failure to believe in a or any proposed deity assume supposed deity exists, but there is no evidence provided here to backup any supposed deity's existence. Oto, if supposed deity doesn't exist, then it is not a failure to believe in them, failure or not is not even relevant.

If we don't believe leprechauns, unicorns, bigfoot, other similar things and fiction story's characters exists as real being, does that also mean it is a failure to believe in them?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Great distinction.

Could you please share this with all those idiotic atheists who keep falsely claiming that religion is the number one cause of war and suffering and what-not?

Those are the only atheists I take issue with.

I do. The belief that without religion people could not come up with some other reason for war is, in my opinion, awfully naive. For atheist materialists, religion is just as much part of that natural paradigm as everything else. Which means that wars and conflict have no innate relationship with religion, but human nature. Can religion be used as a tool to guide behavior? Of course, in so much as any ideology which prescribes conduct can. And some of those religions can be atheistic. Including sections of Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism and, imo, cults of personality like Stalinism.

My atheism is not prescriptive, it's descriptive. I'm an atheist for the simplest reason that I don't believe in any gods. It has nothing to do with what group of people has done what.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Where did you get that idea from? Atheists are just as moral, if not more moral than Christians by almost any measure of "morality". Also your logic is faulty. Just because atheists do not believe the mythical aspects of Jesus's life does not mean that they reject the morals that he teaches. In fact the morals that Jesus taught were not unique to him, nor was he the first that came up with those morals.

So perhaps before you insult people that you do not understand you should do a little research first. You need to remember that your religion was nowhere near being the first to come up with moral laws.

I am sorry if you felt offended as that was not my purpose.

My understanding is that just as the physical sun provides our light so too the Spiritual Suns were the original source of morals and virtues.

My point is this: Although we may light a candle or use a torch or turn on a light, we are dependent on the existence of the physical sun. It is our true source of light and we are dependent on it but the sun is independent of us for its light.

So too, the Spiritual Suns, those Great Educators are like the Sun and were eminent in educating us morals and virtues which we have handed down from generation to generation.

They have been the true Source of our moral education we believe, if one reflects on their lives and teachings

 

[LuisDantas]

All the Manifestations had a certain theme for their age which determined the spirit of that age. Not only Baha’u’llah. He is the One Who has come to foster and encourage fellowship and world unity for this age.

Just as without the physical sun life on earth could not exist so too we believe that spiritual life is dependant on these Spiritual Suns. Buddha, Krishna, Jesus are some of these Suns of Reality.

As I detailed in the other thread, I think that is perhaps an inspiring model, but not a very accurate one.

Personally, I don't think morality could very well work were it so deeply reliant on such strongly centralized parameters. It is plainly self-learned to some extent, including the ability to correct course from obsolete, flawed or even outright corrupt received parameters.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's objectively true for something like a living cell, a crystal, or the brain-mind. Question is whether it's true for our civilization.

It seems to me that it is on the eye of the beholder.

 

[loverofhumanity]

As I detailed in the other thread, I think that is perhaps an inspiring model, but not a very accurate one.

Personally, I don't think morality could very well work were it so deeply reliant on such strongly centralized parameters. It is plainly self-learned to some extent, including the ability to correct course from obsolete, flawed or even outright corrupt received parameters.

Definitely it is self learned I agree because we have to experiment to get the right balance. We may be encouraged to be courteous but then we have to develop wisdom on how to use it and that can take forever.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

@Prestor John hey we found some common ground. That means that we can be friends now. At least until the next thread on homosexuality. xD