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Why religion terrifies me.

Aasimar

Atheist
Odd... The way I heard it, it was 'an Agnostic is an Atheist without ovaries'. Interesting how ones perspective can change things. ;) On a more serious note, it is rather like the way some bisexual people are treated by both heterosexuals and homosexuals. (Not all of any group, I should note.)

The biggest gripe I've ever gotten from atheists is that the common Agnostic answer is "I don't know." It's compared to the theistic crutch of whatever god being they use in their arguments. A responsible agnostic would say "I don't know, but judging from my own intellect, logic dictates "X" to be far more probable."
 

Hope

Princesinha
Worship implies slavery, I love my parents, but I do not worship him. Worship and love are mutually exclusive in my mind.

I thought these statements you made in the beginning to be very interesting, so pardon me if I go a bit off the general direction of the topic, to address them.

Here are some definitions of worship, from the Webster dictionary:

1 chiefly British : a person of importance -- used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>


While slavery is not mentioned in any of these definitions, I actually agree with you that worship can imply slavery. However, where I think you are misguided, is in thinking that you do not worship anyone or anything, because worship and love are "mutually exclusive" (this is the impression I get, reading between the lines----please inform me if I am misunderstanding you). In actuality, we all worship something (or someone). Whether we realize it or not. Humans are the only "animals" truly capable of worship. The only question is, what, or whom, do we worship? Whatever you praise or esteem greatly or devote most of your time to is what you worship. Which is why, as the example given by the dictionary states, we say some people "worship the dollar." Does this mean they are singing songs to it, or offering incense to it? Of course not. However, by making money the most important, and the most esteemed, thing in their life, they are, in effect, making an idol out of it, and worshipping it. They have become "slaves" to the dollar. I think this is pretty self-explanatory. People can worship many different things: their material possessions, their husbands/wives, their sports teams, celebrities....themselves. I do not know what you worship, but I can guarantee you, whatever you put up on a pedestal----and everyone has something----is what you worship. It's what you are a "slave" to, even if you may not think you are.

So, I disagree that worship and love are mutually exclusive. They actually go hand in hand. Whatever you love and value and esteem greatly, you will worship. It's a natural human response. God, therefore, wants our worship to come, not out of a sense of duty----then it wouldn't even be true worship---but out of love and appreciation for Who He is. I like some quotes by C.S. Lewis that explain what true worship of God is:

"The Psalmists in telling everyone to praise God are doing what all men do when they speak of what they care about."

"I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation."

"It is in the process of being worshipped that God communicates His presence to men."

If one truly knows God, one recognizes how worthy of worship He is, and will worship Him voluntarily.
 

Aasimar

Atheist
If one truly knows God, one recognizes how worthy of worship He is, and will worship Him voluntarily.
But if one does not know God, or does not recognize how worth of worship he is, they go to hell. So you are given the option worship me, or go to hell. Every fiber of my being tells me that that is not love. At least not unconditional love. God loves his followers, but not everyone else. You cannot love someone and allow them to burn in hell, that is not love.
 

Hope

Princesinha
But you can know Him, if you so desire. :)

I don't understand hell either, but I know that in addition to being loving, God is also just.
 

Aasimar

Atheist
I don't understand hell either, but I know that in addition to being loving, God is also just.

The thing is he's not loving based on human standards of love, and he's not just based on human standards of justice. I just don't understand how he's loving and just, when he allows those he loves to burn because he gave them insufficient evidence for the rational mind he gave them to accept his existence.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The thing is he's not loving based on human standards of love, and he's not just based on human standards of justice. I just don't understand how he's loving and just, when he allows those he loves to burn because he gave them insufficient evidence for the rational mind he gave them to accept his existence.

What if he gave them signs in their lives and they just don't want to accept them?
 

Aasimar

Atheist
Is that mean you acknowledge that you received signs but you didn't understand them?
You're gonna have to be more specific if you want me to bite a question that loaded. Define sign.
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
In following this thread, it has become quite apparent that agnosticism and atheism are fundamentally the same in that objectivism and critical thinking are presumed to be the only legitimate ways of knowing. They aren't.

I'm quite disappointed with this thread, but not because of the critics of religion. From them, I expect nothing other than what I see: "rationalism" irrationally presuming that the world of things is all there is. Rather, I am disappointed by what I see from those who should know better :sad:than to respond to critics as though religious experience or, as I like to put it, God-knowingness, can be disclosed or explained to those "incapable or unwilling to explore life beyond the most coarse elements of life&#8212; physical sensation, emotion and intellect."
 

Aasimar

Atheist
"rationalism" irrationally presuming that the world of things is all there is.
That's quite a statement. I suppose it seems more rational to assume we know that which cannot be known?
Rather, I am disappointed by what I see from those who should know better :sad:than to respond to critics as though religious experience or, as I like to put it, God-knowingness, can be disclosed or explained to those "incapable or unwilling to explore life beyond the most coarse elements of life&#8212; physical sensation, emotion and intellect."

It saddens me that people see the life that we have as so trivial, emotion and intellect are coarse elements of life? It's more noble to make-believe that you know more than the limits of your body allow you too?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You're gonna have to be more specific if you want me to bite a question that loaded. Define sign.

Sign can be a Prophet's divine message, a miracle, a reminder in a special way of God, and of course, it vary from a person to another.

A former Athiest (a Muslim now) described in his book a sign which happened to his friend. His friend is a smart athiest woman, and one day, she had a cancer and she was about to die, and she promised that if God "she said God" helped her and make her get through this disease and live after that, she would reconsider being a believer in God. So surprisingly, the doctor said after few days of medication that she was ok now and the doctor was shocked for that. Once she found herself healthy again she denied that promised, even though her friend reminded her with the promise while she on that bed, lonely in the hospital waiting for her death and counting the days till she pass away. Nevertheless, she didn't care about that, but later on she died because of that cancer, the very same one after it spread in her body again.

This can give you an example of what a sign can be.

Another example is when see yourself attached so much to somthing and you believe in to be the truth finally, but the questions of the philosophers still might bugs you not to believe in the almighty God, or maybe what you think to be reason or rationality "according to your own experince" might hold you back from it. That doesn't mean you have to follow blindly any faith nor does mean that philosophers are all wrong. It just mean that some people think so hard of things because of the way they precieve it by others or been taught to, but if they looked at in simple way, they would see that what hold them back from the truth was nothing but a consquences of so many thoughts of mere human beings who tried to validate and build a rational system or mold, which they think, they might find God in. One must not seek a God to serve him, but a God who must be served, because he will be worthy of being worshipped. Other than that is just a try to design God the way we see it, which doesn't fit to his greatness.

I hope that what i said make any sense to you.


Peace and blessing,

TT :)
 

Runlikethewind

Monk in Training
But if one does not know God, or does not recognize how worth of worship he is, they go to hell. So you are given the option worship me, or go to hell. Every fiber of my being tells me that that is not love. At least not unconditional love. God loves his followers, but not everyone else. You cannot love someone and allow them to burn in hell, that is not love.

Where do you get this idea? I've seen you say this in other posts and threads too and I am wondering what church or who or what taught you that if you don't love God you go to hell? Every fiber of my being tells me that such a God is not worthy of worship either. Love me or go to hell what is that? How is that worthy of worship? If God is love then you are mistaken in your understanding of Him.
 

Runlikethewind

Monk in Training
The thing is he's not loving based on human standards of love, and he's not just based on human standards of justice. I just don't understand how he's loving and just, when he allows those he loves to burn because he gave them insufficient evidence for the rational mind he gave them to accept his existence.

Let me see if I might possible put forth a scenario in which God's love and justice demand that hell exists. God creates certain intelligent creatures (angels, humans, whatever) and he gave those creatures free-will and gave those creatures existence. Because God is just he will not take away their free-will nor will he take away their existence, He respects His creatures and would not do that to them because He loves them too much. Now if one or more of those creatures decided that they didn't want to have anything to do with God, having full knowledge that God exists, going up to his face and saying "I don't want to have anything to do with you" then what is God to do? He loves them and respects them too much to take away their existence and since God is existence there can be no place or no state of being that is apart from God. If a person desires to exist apart from God then they desire something that God cannot give them, existence outside or apart from existence. Therefore they will continue to exist because God loves them to much to make them into non-existence and they will exist in hate because they cannot escape God's presence no matter what they do. Hell is the experience of God's inescapable love, his inescapable presence for those who don't want anything to do with God. These people are not being punished because they failed to love God they are experiencing "punishment" because that is how they wish to experience God's love, it is what they want and God loves them enough to let them exist in the way they want to exist. So out of love He lets people exist who would rather not exist because if He took away their existence it would not be just. I think that at any rate this is a much better, albeit imperfect, explanation of hell then your idea that God sends people there because they don't love him. People send themselves to hell because they don't love God, God doesn't send anyone there He merely allows them to exist there because that is what they want.
 

The Seeker

Once upon a time....
The thing is he's not loving based on human standards of love, and he's not just based on human standards of justice.

BINGO!!!! We are supposed to be God's children, yet he allows suffering in this world that no sensible parent would allow their children to go through. God also stands idly by as people like Hitler, Stalin and countless other tyrants kill millions of innocent people. Doesn't sound like a just God to me. Some may say that bad people will get theirs in the afterlife, but what about the people that suffer in this life? The God in the Bible is far from loving and just.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
BINGO!!!! We are supposed to be God's children, yet he allows suffering in this world that no sensible parent would allow their children to go through. God also stands idly by as people like Hitler, Stalin and countless other tyrants kill millions of innocent people. Doesn't sound like a just God to me. Some may say that bad people will get theirs in the afterlife, but what about the people that suffer in this life? The God in the Bible is far from loving and just.


You are obviously referring to the God of the old testament.

As far as the bit in red is concerned, have you ever watched an insect that you know has one day's life ? How do you know what it goes through ? That one day, to him/her might be a lifetime.

Maybe we human (to God) are just one of those little insects; sure, to us, the dreadful things that happen to us are big - but are they , in the whole scheme of things?

Besides, that is where I am fortunate (by my belief in reincarnation)- the "bad" levels off with the "good".............you can't have death without birth..........
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
The thing is he's not loving based on human standards of love, and he's not just based on human standards of justice.
Considering the varience among humans in standards of love and justice, I don't nessecarily see that(loving and just in human standards) as something desirable.
 

maro

muslimah
Most religions (that I know of) are totally against killing - the only exception for that(as far as I know) being with Muslims, whio are permitted to kill min defence of themselves, and their Mosques.

so ,your religion doesn't encourage you to defend yourself ? :sarcastic
 

des

Active Member
Runlikethewind (gosh I just got that, cute), I think this is a typical protestant (or Catholic, though there are fewer of them) "Fundamentalist" view of God. It may be in the Bible in places but it is selectively chosen to present a stern "parent" God, but a parent that would be considered abusive in the extreme.

Many theists don't believe in the existence of a literal heaven or hell, and those that do often believe that there would be other factors involved in "redemption". I think someone mentioned a "God spark", that is existent in most people-- but not in someone like Hitler or Stalin.
I feel that for some people believe in a literal heaven or hell serves to show that the world is inherently just and that if those types of people didn't suffer in this life, they suffer in the next one.

The idea that only "Bible Believing Christians" go to a literal heaven, is based on a single verse or two, and isn't (as James would probably tell you) a very old interpretation of Christianity but a very new one. I am not opposed to new ones, but I am to these types of ideas.

I also think hell has been used in some churches to scare children. I think that religion can cause damage, and that is the kind of damage it does.
This is well portrayed btw, in Huckleberry Finn. And you know what he had to say about this kind of belief.


--des

Where do you get this idea? I've seen you say this in other posts and threads too and I am wondering what church or who or what taught you that if you don't love God you go to hell? Every fiber of my being tells me that such a God is not worthy of worship either. Love me or go to hell what is that? How is that worthy of worship? If God is love then you are mistaken in your understanding of Him.
 
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