Why say Magic instead of Placebo?

[Taylor Seraphim]

This question goes out to anybody asking for evidence or proof:

Given that we're on a forum, what exactly do you expect in terms of evidence?

It seems to me that the best thing somebody could offer would be their own experience. I've done that in the past and it will always be ignored, deemed unworthy or ridiculed. That brings me on to another question.

What's our incentive to share here? It seems to me that the people who demand proof on the internet are asking for more than they realize and offering nothing in return.

1) Because spreading knowledge can help humanity

2) Detailing personal accounts can give insight as to what may have actually happened

3) So you are saying there is no evidence aside from personal accounts? If one where to take this as true then everything from Bigfoot to the moon being an egg is true.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

lack of respect of my culture

What culture is that?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I agree that there's a spectrum. If somebody wanted to convert you to their faith, asking for proof isn't unreasonable.

However, sometimes it's either unfeasible or unwarranted, especially on an internet forum. We live in an age where photographic evidence just doesn't mean much anymore, considering how easy it is to create convincing fakes. In this particular instance, sharing personal experiences seems like the best bet, but would you honestly accept that?

Furthermore, magic tends to be quite a personal affair. Rituals will often involve somebody opening themselves up to those parts of their mind they might not share in public. Kind of like writing your innermost thoughts and desires into a diary. When somebody demands proof, especially somebody who's essentially a stranger on the internet, I can completely sympathise with the people who aren't keen on opening up.

Let's use an analogy.

Imagine the debate was about sex and somebody on the forum told you that they don't buy your stance on it. They want you to give a detailed description of your first time having sex and ideally some photographs/videos too. How enthusiastic would you be to share? If it's something you honestly wouldn't mind, can you understand why somebody else would mind?

Now, I'm fine with debate, but calls for proof on an internet forum seem to be a good way to just shut the whole thing down and leave everybody involved feeling miffed. This is especially true in a thread like this, which was really focused on examining a different usage of vocabulary.

There is a difference between claiming magic is real and claiming that a sex position is better.

Also I have tried three different forms of magic before and I find them all to be some mixture of self-delusion, introspection, and auto-placebo.

The latter two which can be done without magic.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Mysterious OR supernatural. Since supernatural is, IMO, a self-contradictory term and so refers to a state that is meaningless, we're left with mysterious.

Then again, I think we can pretty safely say that the vast majority of people (if not everyone; I'm not sure what the current theories about its mechanisms are) do not know how the placebo effect works. That is to say, it remains quite "mysterious".

After all, the word "mystery" is also related to the word "mystic". (...which, counter-intuitively enough, seems to have nothing to do with the word "mist" even all the way to PIE. That's kinda disappointing.)

If we wish to take this view than what is magic or not is subjective.

Also if you understood how something worked it would not be magic, which would mean that the rituals used are not magic.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I agree.

I have already stated that I have done 'magic' with Wicca, Thelema, and Chaos Magick.

 

[Erebus]

1) Because spreading knowledge can help humanity

2) Detailing personal accounts can give insight as to what may have actually happened

3) So you are saying there is no evidence aside from personal accounts? If one where to take this as true then everything from Bigfoot to the moon being an egg is true.

Okay, let's go through some of these.

1) Certainly, but that's a something of a grand vision for chatter on an internet forum. Also, in my experience, this knowledge is quite often thrown back in your face. You can only try to help somebody so often before you get sick of them spitting at you.

2) I feel I've covered why putting personal accounts onto the internet to appease a stranger isn't so attractive.

3) I'll repeat myself here. What precisely do you expect to get as evidence on an internet forum?

There is a difference between claiming magic is real and claiming that a sex position is better.

Also I have tried three different forms of magic before and I find them all to be some mixture of self-delusion, introspection, and auto-placebo.

The latter two which can be done without magic.

I'm just going to highlight this and leave it here for now. I honestly don't know how to even begin to handle this for the moment.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Well if we want to get technical, my tattoos are in fact an act and tool in an expansive ritual. They're perfectly chosen through symbology and introspection to have a desires effect on my mind, whether consciously or not. Further, the act of tattooing itself was a magical one for me, as it gave me control over my own body, my own pain, in a time I had very little.

That is not magic, by definition.

We are using the language English here, if you want to make up a word for this meaning you are using go ahead but that is not magic.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Okay, let's go through some of these.

1) Certainly, but that's a something of a grand vision for chatter on an internet forum. Also, in my experience, this knowledge is quite often thrown back in your face. You can only try to help somebody so often before you get sick of them spitting at you.

2) I feel I've covered why putting personal accounts onto the internet to appease a stranger isn't so attractive.

3) I'll repeat myself here. What precisely do you expect to get as evidence on an internet forum?



I'm just going to highlight this and leave it here for now. I honestly don't know how to even begin to handle this for the moment.

Very well.

3) A logical reason why based on evidence that I have available to me something is or is not true.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Placebos are arguably a type of magic, specifically lesser magic. They work by the mind (the isolate intelligence) tricking nature, in most cases ones physiological and psychological processes, to form a new subjective reality which overpowers the objective problem.

Btw, you keep making claims like a fat kid grabbing for candy, then pretending burden of proof doesn't exist. Just something to look out for.

Actually YOU have the burden of proof.

YOU claim that magic is real not me.

 

[Quintessence]

What culture is that?

Mainstream American/Western culture, as I experience it. Because those experiences are obviously very limited, I'll sometimes avoid referring to it directly as "American culture" or "Western culture" or even "American MidWestern culture" because I am in no place to speak for any of these as a whole. In a way, it's a misnomer to call it "my" culture, because although I am part of it, I'm not a willing participant and do not personally identify with these meta-cultures.

To put things another way, outside of the subcultures I personally identify with, the cultural morass I exist in presently is not particularly accepting of the magical. That's basically what I was saying there, if that helps.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

The human mind is a very mysterious force, and one of the defining traits is it can go against, manipulate, and even ignore nature. Fits both parts of your definition.

Incorrect, the human mind is part of the natural world so therefore everything it does is natural.

Also mysterious is subjective, therefore you could never objectively call anything magic.

Also since you seem to have some idea of how your rituals work it is no longer magic to you.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Mainstream American/Western culture, as I experience it. Because those experiences are obviously very limited, I'll sometimes avoid referring to it directly as "American culture" or "Western culture" or even "American MidWestern culture" because I am in no place to speak for any of these as a whole. In a way, it's a misnomer to call it "my" culture, because although I am part of it, I'm not a willing participant and do not personally identify with these meta-cultures.

To put things another way, outside of the subcultures I personally identify with, the cultural morass I exist in presently is not particularly accepting of the magical. That's basically what I was saying there, if that helps.

To be honest I identify with culture as the United States culture with all the good and bad parts of it.

 

[Erebus]

Very well.

3) A logical reason why based on evidence that I have available to me something is or is not true.

That's ... a strange stance to take on this particular issue. It's better than just asking for some form of evidence without further clarification though, so I'll work with it as best I can.

I've used magic/ritual to alter my perception of events, to alter my feelings towards something and to achieve other forms of change in my life. Since these rituals have proven effective, I have to conclude that magic is useful to me. Therefore my view of the truth in this matter is that magic is useful to me.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

That's ... a strange stance to take on this particular issue. It's better than just asking for some form of evidence without further clarification though, so I'll work with it as best I can.

I've used magic/ritual to alter my perception of events, to alter my feelings towards something and to achieve other forms of change in my life. Since these rituals have proven effective, I have to conclude that magic is useful to me. Therefore my view of the truth in this matter is that magic is useful to me.

I am not doubting that.

However I would say that this is not magic by definition but rather a form of introspection and meditation.

 

[Erebus]

I am not doubting that.

However I would say that this is not magic by definition but rather a form of introspection and meditation.

We're back to the crux of our disagreement. It's a disagreement that, 10 pages into this thread, I very much doubt either of us is going to budge on. I'd suggest we both call it a day on this particular point, if you're happy to?

 

[outhouse]

If somebody wanted to convert you to their faith, asking for proof isn't unreasonable.

I would not ask for proof or evidence regarding a faith.

But some of these claims are beyond faith.

, magic tends to be quite a personal affair

I doubt magic is the right word to describe much of what people are talking about if we get down to the nuts and bolts of it.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

We're back to the crux of our disagreement. It's a disagreement that, 10 pages into this thread, I very much doubt either of us is going to budge on. I'd suggest we both call it a day on this particular point, if you're happy to?

Let me ask you this.

Why do you want to call it magic?

 

[outhouse]

Nobody likes their meaningful, personal experiences to be disrespected by others, so why would we open ourselves up when then tone of a conversation suggests others are going to use our stories against us?

Agreed.

Then people should not join a "debate" on their personal experiences, unless they are ready to defend them

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Agreed.

Then people should not join a "debate" on their personal experiences, unless they are ready to defend them

I agree fi you do not like to have a belief doubted or picked apart than you should not put it under a debate section.

 

[1137]

I have already stated that I have done 'magic' with Wicca, Thelema, and Chaos Magick.

A religion, a philosophy, and a movement that doesn't even hide the fact that it's psychology and not magic. None of this name dropping is impressive nor suggests you have any authority in the area.

That is not magic, by definition.

We are using the language English here, if you want to make up a word for this meaning you are using go ahead but that is not magic.

Erm, you're the only one here who can't seem to grasp this simple understanding of magic. Besides, I already pointed out how it fits with the definition.

Actually YOU have the burden of proof.

YOU claim that magic is real not me.

We've all provided numerous elaborations on how magic is real, which you refuse to engage in. Then you make claims all the time which you also refuse to engage in, such as:

Incorrect, the human mind is part of the natural world so therefore everything it does is natural.

Prove it. If you could you'd have a Nobel Prize.

Also mysterious is subjective, therefore you could never objectively call anything magic.

Also since you seem to have some idea of how your rituals work it is no longer magic to you.

You're a big fan of absolutes, aren't you. An island once isolated can never be interacted with,a mystery once slightly understood is no longer mysterious, none of this makes any sense and shows an extreme ignorance of logical debate.