Why should I believe in your religion and faith?

[zenzero]

Friend Fishhunter,
I stopped eating fish and so need not hunt.
Meaning whatever you want is here itself in [this life**.
Jesus never spoke about rebirth and evolution though he understood it because it would confuse the not so intelligent people of the time. He was correct too because when he said this life he meant that each individual's life till salvation is ONE.
Yes, there is nothing to find, no paths, no goal and so they [paths, goals, etc] are here.
This is what Buddha said in his diamond sutra.
After reaching, none can say he has reached because he was always there itself but it was all imagination that the mind plays with everyone that he is made to feel being far away.
There is only one way and that is meditation.
Love & rgds

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Fish-Hunter, I have been searching for truth for a long time. What I have learned is that it doesn't matter where we are going in this life. The end of our path is not really end. The journeys that we take in life are what matters. The journey itself is both the means and the end. This very moment is all that matters. This very moment is the only truth. Hold out your hands and just look at them for a moment...THIS is it!

Hi TurkeyOnRye,

I noticed that you live at the Oregon Coast. I have been to the Oregon Coast a few years ago. It's absolutely amazing and beautiful, watching the waves over the scenic cliffs at the coastline. Do you think the beauty of nature such as a sunset over the Pacific Ocean points to something much bigger than our daily existence? How about storm watching on the coast, or gazing at the stars on a clear night? Doesn't that speak of something that is way beyond us?

Do you believe there can be any kind of hope after this life? What is the journey all about? What should be our main purpose for getting up in the morning? Do you find yourself to be content and at peace? Do you consider yourself as a convinced atheist, or do you lean to being more of an agnostic?

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Hi TurkeyOnRye,

I noticed that you live at the Oregon Coast. I have been to the Oregon Coast a few years ago. It's absolutely amazing and beautiful, watching the waves over the scenic cliffs at the coastline. Do you think the beauty of nature such as a sunset over the Pacific Ocean points to something much bigger than our daily existence? How about storm watching on the coast, or gazing at the stars on a clear night? Doesn't that speak of something that is way beyond us?

Do you believe there can be any kind of hope after this life? What is the journey all about? What should be our main purpose for getting up in the morning? Do you find yourself to be content and at peace? Do you consider yourself as a convinced atheist, or do you lean to being more of an agnostic?

Fish-Hunter

Yes, I live in a town called Tillamook on the Oregon Coast. The Pacific Northwest is a very beautiful place to live and I am privileged to live here.

I know the feeling that you speak of. I feel the same way when I gaze upon the stars or the Pacific ocean. I've heard that the ocean has no memory. That phrase speaks volumes about its humbling effect on us, how whenever we look into it, our mind stops for a second. It doesn't have a beginning or end, so it forces us to live in the present moment, if only for a short period.

But we can live like this every moment of our lives. When you still your mind and disconcern yourself with the past and future, the present moment is all that matters...and it is all that matters. When we live our everyday lives, we always see people in their mad rush, desperately running down paths that they think will lead themselves to satisfaction. We shouldn't be seeking fulfillment by searching the external world, we need only to search inside ourselves.

What happens when we die? I do not know, and that's ok. Maybe nothing happens. Maybe we just become earth. That's ok too. What is our purpose in life? A loaded question. We may very well not have a purpose in life beyond the purpose that we give ourselves. Am I content and at peace? Yes and no. I could go on and on about a lot of stuff, but I will say that when I'm living in this very moment, I'm fully at peace. Do I believe in god? No. Do I believe there isn't a god? Not exactly. I will say that I don't believe our reality requires a god and that I see no real evidence of there being one. Do we need a god to obtain spiritual wealth? As far as I'm concerned, we are our own gods and spiritual wealth is found on the inside.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Fish-Hunter

Yes, I live in a town called Tillamook on the Oregon Coast. The Pacific Northwest is a very beautiful place to live and I am privileged to live here.

I know the feeling that you speak of. I feel the same way when I gaze upon the stars or the Pacific ocean. I've heard that the ocean has no memory. That phrase speaks volumes about its humbling effect on us, how whenever we look into it, our mind stops for a second. It doesn't have a beginning or end, so it forces us to live in the present moment, if only for a short period.

But we can live like this every moment of our lives. When you still your mind and disconcern yourself with the past and future, the present moment is all that matters...and it is all that matters. When we live our everyday lives, we always see people in their mad rush, desperately running down paths that they think will lead themselves to satisfaction. We shouldn't be seeking fulfillment by searching the external world, we need only to search inside ourselves.

What happens when we die? I do not know, and that's ok. Maybe nothing happens. Maybe we just become earth. That's ok too. What is our purpose in life? A loaded question. We may very well not have a purpose in life beyond the purpose that we give ourselves. Am I content and at peace? Yes and no. I could go on and on about a lot of stuff, but I will say that when I'm living in this very moment, I'm fully at peace. Do I believe in god? No. Do I believe there isn't a god? Not exactly. I will say that I don't believe our reality requires a god and that I see no real evidence of there being one. Do we need a god to obtain spiritual wealth? As far as I'm concerned, we are our own gods and spiritual wealth is found on the inside.

You seem to be very thankful that you are able to live in Tillamook, off the Oregon Coast. Your postings have given me much to reflect and contemplate about. Thank you for sharing in a very honest and genuine way too. When you think about it, there over 6 billion people in this world. In addition, we live in a time in history that our standard of living and general health concerns are much superior than most generations throughout the history of mankind. Here is something to think about: did a higher force direct you somehow to live in this particular time in history, and the exact place that you currently live? Living in the United States on the Oregon coast in 2008 is quite a privileged position or lot in life. Do things only happen by random chance and by blind fate, or do we control our destiny...or is there a higher power out there that is unseen that is orchestrating human events and history? The reflection of the known size of the cosmos has really stimulated my thoughts to seek and search for something much bigger than daily routine. When we are thankful for life, who should we thank?

 

[Katzpur]

How's it going, Fish-Hunter? I've been following this thread and am impressed by a lot of the answers people have given you so far. I've been thinking about what I want to say to you, because I sense that you are sincere in your search for truth. The concept of "absolute truth" (when used in reference to spiritual matters) is very offensive to a lot of people, and I'm not sure why. To me, it's entirely logical to assume that such truth does exist. Since you seem to agree, I would suggest that if you believe absolute truth to potentially be found within one of the world's religions today, you begin by focusing your search on one of the religions that at least claims to have that truth. That will narrow your search quite a bit, actually. Let's say you were to focus on Christianity (which may not even be the direction you are currently leaning), though. Even within Christianity, there is an amazing degree of pluralism. According to Adherents.com, there are over 30,000 different Christian denominations in the world today. Of course, many of these have a membership numbering only a few hundred people. But no two of them teach exactly the same doctrines. Consequently, it is impossible that no two of them may both be 100% true. I am consistently amazed at how many Protestants will tell you that it doesn't make any difference at all whether you worship as a Lutheran, a Methodist, or a Baptist, since they're all pretty much the same anyway, and all teach of the same Christ. Well, they're not all the same. The differences may not be enormous to someone who believes in religious pluralism, but I think you'll agree that they're significant to someone who is looking for "absolute truth."

In Ephesians 4:11-14, we read the following: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive..."

Here's how I would interpret this passage: And He (Jesus Christ) appointed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. His purpose in doing so was to perfect His followers, to minister to them and to teach them. These were to remain in place until all of us are unified in the faith and in our knowledge of the Son of God, enabling us to grow to maturity in the Lord. Otherwise, we will continue to be like children in the gospel, persuaded first one way and then another, and unable to distinguish between true and false doctrines, being subject to the teachings of those who are crafty and who desire to deceive us.

Additionally, Ephesians 2:20 refers to prophets and apostles as the "foundation" upon which Christ (who is the "chief cornerstone") would build His Church. I know a lot of Christians who will argue that once the foundation has been laid, that it does not need to be laid a second time. I would respond by saying that this is true only is the foundation is not destroyed. In Luke 11:49, Jesus said that He would send prophets and apostles that would be martyred by the people. He spoke in future tense, indicating that the need for prophets and apostles would continue after His death. After Judas' suicide, Matthias was chosen to take his place. Paul was later called as an apostle, as was Barnabas, and James (Jesus' brother) is also mentioned as being as apostle. Clearly, the organization of Christ's Church was intended to include the offices of prophets and apostles. If it were true that there words alone were sufficient to guide the Church after Christ's death, Christianity would not be as splintered today as it is. In my opinion, living prophets and apostles are an essential component of any Church claiming to have the authority Christ gave those He originally called.

You asked for evidence that my Church is true. This is one point that I feel substantiates our claim to be the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Of course, if the Prophet and Apostles who lead our Church do not have the authority they claim to have, that's another matter entirely. The fact remains, though, that a church cannot be "apostolic" without "apostles." And only an apostolic church can have a legitimate claim on "absolute truth."

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

You seem to be very thankful that you are able to live in Tillamook, off the Oregon Coast. Your postings have given me much to reflect and contemplate about. Thank you for sharing in a very honest and genuine way too. When you think about it, there over 6 billion people in this world. In addition, we live in a time in history that our standard of living and general health concerns are much superior than most generations throughout the history of mankind. Here is something to think about: did a higher force direct you somehow to live in this particular time in history, and the exact place that you currently live? Living in the United States on the Oregon coast in 2008 is quite a privileged position or lot in life. Do things only happen by random chance and by blind fate, or do we control our destiny...or is there a higher power out there that is unseen that is orchestrating human events and history? The reflection of the known size of the cosmos has really stimulated my thoughts to seek and search for something much bigger than daily routine. When we are thankful for life, who should we thank?

You are made from the very same thing that make up our stars and galaxies. Our bodies come from the earth and our blood from the oceans...literally. We are the universe in conscious form.

I read a life-changing book some time back and of all the books that I have ever read, it is by far the most eye-opening. It's not dogmatic, it's not informative, it simply tells you what you already know. It's rediscovering the obvious, in a sense and I don't know a single person on earth who would argue with its truth. I intensely recommend that you read The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. I can almost guarantee that you will eat this book up and always keep it on your shelf.

You can find it here.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

How's it going, Fish-Hunter? I've been following this thread and am impressed by a lot of the answers people have given you so far. I've been thinking about what I want to say to you, because I sense that you are sincere in your search for truth. The concept of "absolute truth" (when used in reference to spiritual matters) is very offensive to a lot of people, and I'm not sure why. To me, it's entirely logical to assume that such truth does exist. Since you seem to agree, I would suggest that if you believe absolute truth to potentially be found within one of the world's religions today, you begin by focusing your search on one of the religions that at least claims to have that truth. That will narrow your search quite a bit, actually. Let's say you were to focus on Christianity (which may not even be the direction you are currently leaning), though. Even within Christianity, there is an amazing degree of pluralism. According to Adherents.com, there are over 30,000 different Christian denominations in the world today. Of course, many of these have a membership numbering only a few hundred people. But no two of them teach exactly the same doctrines. Consequently, it is impossible that no two of them may both be 100% true. I am consistently amazed at how many Protestants will tell you that it doesn't make any difference at all whether you worship as a Lutheran, a Methodist, or a Baptist, since they're all pretty much the same anyway, and all teach of the same Christ. Well, they're not all the same. The differences may not be enormous to someone who believes in religious pluralism, but I think you'll agree that they're significant to someone who is looking for "absolute truth."

In Ephesians 4:11-14, we read the following: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive..."

Here's how I would interpret this passage: And He (Jesus Christ) appointed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. His purpose in doing so was to perfect His followers, to minister to them and to teach them. These were to remain in place until all of us are unified in the faith and in our knowledge of the Son of God, enabling us to grow to maturity in the Lord. Otherwise, we will continue to be like children in the gospel, persuaded first one way and then another, and unable to distinguish between true and false doctrines, being subject to the teachings of those who are crafty and who desire to deceive us.

Additionally, Ephesians 2:20 refers to prophets and apostles as the "foundation" upon which Christ (who is the "chief cornerstone") would build His Church. I know a lot of Christians who will argue that once the foundation has been laid, that it does not need to be laid a second time. I would respond by saying that this is true only is the foundation is not destroyed. In Luke 11:49, Jesus said that He would send prophets and apostles that would be martyred by the people. He spoke in future tense, indicating that the need for prophets and apostles would continue after His death. After Judas' suicide, Matthias was chosen to take his place. Paul was later called as an apostle, as was Barnabas, and James (Jesus' brother) is also mentioned as being as apostle. Clearly, the organization of Christ's Church was intended to include the offices of prophets and apostles. If it were true that there words alone were sufficient to guide the Church after Christ's death, Christianity would not be as splintered today as it is. In my opinion, living prophets and apostles are an essential component of any Church claiming to have the authority Christ gave those He originally called.

You asked for evidence that my Church is true. This is one point that I feel substantiates our claim to be the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Of course, if the Prophet and Apostles who lead our Church do not have the authority they claim to have, that's another matter entirely. The fact remains, though, that a church cannot be "apostolic" without "apostles." And only an apostolic church can have a legitimate claim on "absolute truth."

Hi Katzpur,

Thank you for investing your personal time in sharing the Mormon Faith. I agree with your counseling that I should consider religions that believe they know absolute truth. I have found that Islam and different sects of Christianity teach that truth is absolute and is found through them. I have been reading the Quran and the Bible. I also have been researching Roman Catholicism too. Actually, I have been studying pretty intensely for quite awhile.

Forgive me when I misunderstand your postings because it is not easy to communicate through the Internet. It seems the Mormon Church can claim to be the correct religion because of being the church with apostolic authority. I believe the LDS.org website calls it Priesthood authority. It seems this is very similar to what the Roman Catholic Church teaches in their teaching of apostolic succession, and Peter being the first Pope of the Christian Church. How would we try to objectively determine which church has the authority from the Christian God, the Mormon Church and their prophets, or the Roman Catholic Church and their apostles. Do you see why I get confused and frustrated in trying to determine what is true? I would love to read your best efforts in presenting a case for authority for the Mormon Church over the Roman Catholic Church. Please share when time permits. I am using this forum site as one of my many tools in my personal search for truth. There is so much that can be found on the Internet nowdays.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

You are made from the very same thing that make up our stars and galaxies. Our bodies come from the earth and our blood from the oceans...literally. We are the universe in conscious form.

I read a life-changing book some time back and of all the books that I have ever read, it is by far the most eye-opening. It's not dogmatic, it's not informative, it simply tells you what you already know. It's rediscovering the obvious, in a sense and I don't know a single person on earth who would argue with its truth. I intensely recommend that you read The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. I can almost guarantee that you will eat this book up and always keep it on your shelf.

You can find it here.

Hi TurkeyOnRye,

Thank you for recommending "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. It appears to be a best seller and is highly recommended on Amazon's reviewers. I find it interesting that you stated that our bodies come from the earth. That statement is somewhat similar to the Christian Bible. I believe the Christian Holy Book teaches that man is from dust too. Do you believe there is intelligent life on other planets outside our solar system but within our galaxy? I think the known universe is too large to dogmatically state that intelligent life is limited to our tiny speck of a planet.

 

[YmirGF]

Does anyone have some free time to share their religion or personal faith in God? I would love to read about your faith over a virtual cup of coffee. :coffee2:

Given that you chose not to respond to my previous post, (#43) I am not altogether certain that you may be interested in my warped view of reality. Being a non-religious "visionary" is admittedly a daunting idea as my thinking is definitely unique.

If you are up to it, I have had two rather evocative threads.

The first one is a "one on one" discussion with Halcyon (Paul) and went very well, imho.

YmirGF and Halcyon: One-on-one discussion

The second is an interview format and covers a wide range of topics. Again, I thought it went quite well. Comprehend (Damon) asks some very good questions and I tried my best to provide amusing and thought-provoking answers.

What is the deal with YmirGF? (an interview)

Amusingly, I don't think either of them really bargained for what they were getting themselves into... but as always, I could be wrong.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Given that you chose not to respond to my previous post, (#43) I am not altogether certain that you may be interested in my warped view of reality. Being a non-religious "visionary" is admittedly a daunting idea as my thinking is definitely unique.

If you are up to it, I have had two rather evocative threads.

The first one is a "one on one" discussion with Halcyon (Paul) and went very well, imho.

YmirGF and Halcyon: One-on-one discussion

The second is an interview format and covers a wide range of topics. Again, I thought it went quite well. Comprehend (Damon) asks some very good questions and I tried my best to provide amusing and thought-provoking answers.

What is the deal with YmirGF? (an interview)

Amusingly, I don't think either of them really bargained for what they were getting themselves into... but as always, I could be wrong.

Thank you for the offer. I will think about it. Thanks again.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Hi TurkeyOnRye,

Thank you for recommending "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. It appears to be a best seller and is highly recommended on Amazon's reviewers. I find it interesting that you stated that our bodies come from the earth. That statement is somewhat similar to the Christian Bible. I believe the Christian Holy Book teaches that man is from dust too. Do you believe there is intelligent life on other planets outside our solar system but within our galaxy? I think the known universe is too large to dogmatically state that intelligent life is limited to our tiny speck of a planet.

The concept of our bodies coming from the earth is pretty synonymous from culture to culture. The Christian Bible is by no means the first or only source. I can't say whether or not I believe there is life beyond this planet. I will say that considering the mind-numbingly large number of potentially life-sustaining planets in our galaxy (let alone the other billions of galaxies), the chances are quite high that there is life (and indeed intelligent life) elsewhere.

In our search for truth, it's important to put desire to the wayside, otherwise our search will be ultimately biased. I believe that this is the fundamental problem with most organized religion; it may claim to offer truth but its followers can get sidetracked and forget what it was they were looking for in the first place. We can't disregard our reason. I don't condemn all religion. Actually, I have to admit there is a lot of good material to be offered from some of it, though to be honest, you have to do a lot of cherry-picking. To reinforce this idea, let me give you a scripture from the Holy Bible:

Hosea 13:16 Samaria will bear her guilt; for she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women will be ripped open.

Of course we know that there are also scriptures in the Bible, most notably from Jesus, that have the potential to bring a person to tears. These inconsistencies are probably due to the fact that the Bible was written by numerous unknown authors over many years. Buddhism, in my humble opinion, offers the most direct route to discovering truth and your inner self; as long as you don't get attached to some of the dogma. The heart of the Buddha's teachings radiate life.

If you have decided not to get the book that I recommended you, I highly...recommend you reconsider. Hell, I'll buy it for you, if you want! It's that good! No pressure though...

 

[Fish-Hunter]

The concept of our bodies coming from the earth is pretty synonymous from culture to culture. The Christian Bible is by no means the first or only source. I can't say whether or not I believe there is life beyond this planet. I will say that considering the mind-numbingly large number of potentially life-sustaining planets in our galaxy (let alone the other billions of galaxies), the chances are quite high that there is life (and indeed intelligent life) elsewhere.

In our search for truth, it's important to put desire to the wayside, otherwise our search will be ultimately biased. I believe that this is the fundamental problem with most organized religion; it may claim to offer truth but its followers can get sidetracked and forget what it was they were looking for in the first place. We can't disregard our reason. I don't condemn all religion. Actually, I have to admit there is a lot of good material to be offered from some of it, though to be honest, you have to do a lot of cherry-picking. To reinforce this idea, let me give you a scripture from the Holy Bible:

Hosea 13:16 Samaria will bear her guilt; for she has rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women will be ripped open.

Of course we know that there are also scriptures in the Bible, most notably from Jesus, that have the potential to bring a person to tears. These inconsistencies are probably due to the fact that the Bible was written by numerous unknown authors over many years. Buddhism, in my humble opinion, offers the most direct route to discovering truth and your inner self; as long as you don't get attached to some of the dogma. The heart of the Buddha's teachings radiate life.

If you have decided not to get the book that I recommended you, I highly...recommend you reconsider. Hell, I'll buy it for you, if you want! It's that good! No pressure though...

Hi TurkeyOnRye,

Thank you for offering to buy me your recommended book. I'm sure the book has much wisdom and insight to learn from. My plate is quite full in reading books on Roman Catholicism, the Quran, the Bible, and web information about the Mormon Church. Therefore, I want to wait before purchasing the book the you highly recommended. Could you please give me a summary of what the author is sharing in his book? What are his main points?

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

Hi TurkeyOnRye,

Thank you for offering to buy me your recommended book. I'm sure the book has much wisdom and insight to learn from. My plate is quite full in reading books on Roman Catholicism, the Quran, the Bible, and web information about the Mormon Church. Therefore, I want to wait before purchasing the book the you highly recommended. Could you please give me a summary of what the author is sharing in his book? What are his main points?

You can read the book summary on the posted link, but frankly it's worthless. This is a book that must be swallowed whole.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

You can read the book summary on the posted link, but frankly it's worthless. This is a book that must be swallowed whole.

LOL!... Are we saying religious books need to be read in context?

The Christian Holy Bible:

Psalm 14 - "There is no God."

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

To be quite honest, the first chapter or so will be a little confusing. After that though, a light clicks on. My simple summary of this book is this: rediscover the obvious. You won't know until you read it... but it will become blindingly obvious to you.

 

[Katzpur]

Thank you for investing your personal time in sharing the Mormon Faith. I agree with your counseling that I should consider religions that believe they know absolute truth. I have found that Islam and different sects of Christianity teach that truth is absolute and is found through them. I have been reading the Quran and the Bible. I also have been researching Roman Catholicism too. Actually, I have been studying pretty intensely for quite awhile.

May I suggest that you read the Book of Mormon, too, then? (As if the Bible and the Quran won't keep you busy for quite awhile. ) The Church will provide you with a copy free of charge, if you're interested. Many thousands of people take advantage of this offer every year. I can understand why some would, however, be hesitant to do so; the book would be delivered to your home personally by a couple of LDS missionaries who would then, of course, like to visit with you and share their beliefs. If you don't feel as if you're ready to pursue that course of action, please feel free to PM me with your address and I would be happy to mail you a copy. I can get one either free of charge myself or for a cost of something like $2.00. I have mailed copies to a couple of individuals on this forum over the past couple of years, and as they would both tell you (they still post here), once I mailed them the book, I never pushed them further. Neither of them joined the Church or requested that the missionaries call on them, and we have remained friends. At any rate, it would be a huge mistake to make a final decision to reject Mormonism without reading the Book of Mormon.

Forgive me when I misunderstand your postings because it is not easy to communicate through the Internet. It seems the Mormon Church can claim to be the correct religion because of being the church with apostolic authority. I believe the LDS.org website calls it Priesthood authority. It seems this is very similar to what the Roman Catholic Church teaches in their teaching of apostolic succession, and Peter being the first Pope of the Christian Church. How would we try to objectively determine which church has the authority from the Christian God, the Mormon Church and their prophets, or the Roman Catholic Church and their apostles. Do you see why I get confused and frustrated in trying to determine what is true? I would love to read your best efforts in presenting a case for authority for the Mormon Church over the Roman Catholic Church. Please share when time permits. I am using this forum site as one of my many tools in my personal search for truth. There is so much that can be found on the Internet nowdays.

First of all, I would like to thank you for spending your time on Mormon.org and LDS.org instead of on the multitude of anti-Mormon websites out there. It never ceases to amaze me how many people say they are looking for the truth about what we Latter-day Saints believe, but then frequent only those websites which are owned by our critics and which exist for the sole purpose of misrepresenting and ridiculing our doctrines. Both of the websites you have mentioned are good ones. Forums such as this one are also worthwhile, since you can get specific answers to specific questions from people who are actually members of the Church.

It was interesting to me that you would mention the fact that both Mormonism and Catholicism believe that apostolic authority is an essential component of the true Christian Church. This is one of the things I admire most about the Catholic Church, even though I disagree, of course, as to which one of us holds that authority. You might find the following kind of interesting. It's from a very old book called, "The Strength of the Mormon Position" by Orson F. Whitney:

"Many years ago a learned man, a member of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Utah and spoke from the stand of the Salt Lake Tabernacle. I became well-acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue's end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. One day he said to me: 'You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don't even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that's all there is to it. The Protestants haven't a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us: while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism: but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism's attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days.' "

I do understand how difficult it is to make an objective decision as to what is true, but I am confident that you will ultimately be able to come to a decision you will be happy with. As far as presenting a case for the authority of my Church over the authority of the Catholic Church, I hardly know where to begin. It really is difficult to try to "sell" your own beliefs without being in some way critical of the other guy's beliefs, but this is something I really try not to do.

I suppose it gets down to what the man in the little story I shared said. If there really was an apostasy in the early Church, then a restoration of the authority was absolutely essential. (No "restorationist" church besides the Church of Jesus Christ actually claims to have that authority. The others just claim to be following the doctrines that Christ taught, but don't see priesthood authority as important.) On the other hand, if there never was an apostasy, there was definitely no need for a restoration. So the first thing I can suggest to you is that you try to come to a conclusion as to whether an apostasy happened at all. One was prophesied by Paul; I can tell you that for sure. He also promised that there would be a "restitution of all things" prior to the second coming of Christ. Your homework is to decide whether or not he knew what he was talking about. Finally, I'm going to post a link to a site you may find interesting: The Gertrude Specht Story.

How about we update the photograph you posted of our Prophet. The above picture is of Gordon B. Hinckley, who served as the President of the Church until late January, 2008, when he passed away at the age of 96. The picture below is of Thomas S. Monson, who just yesterday was sustained by the membership of the Church as our new President and Prophet.

Good luck in your search, Fish-Hunter. I will continue to follow your thread and contribute where I feel I can.

Kathryn

 

[RedRain]

Swedenborgianism claims to be the absolute truth. Don't most religions? It does generally get looked over though, in my opinion, simply because it is too reasonable and, at the same time, very small. I don't really see why either of those should be a deterrent. With the state of the world today, I think it would make sense that if the end all be all religion were out there it would be very small.

34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. - Daniel 2:34-35

In the deeper meaning this story symbolizes the New Church, being the stone cut out without hands, that is to "crush" all the previous churches and grow over the entire earth. The gold church representing a church that was before the written history of earth that was the Most Ancient church. The Most Ancient church were the first people of God represented by the story of Adam and Eve and in their innocence they ate of the Tree of life and spoke openly with those who had passed from this life and become angels of heaven. The fall of the Most Ancient church is represented by Eve eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil, which represents seeking to understand the things of God from the things and senses of the natural world.

Everything is explained, everything. God has shown us the meaning of all things here in the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg and no one will see. It is too reasonable for those of religious persuasion and too moral for those of non-religious persuasion.

"...now it is permitted to enter with the understanding into the mysteries of faith." - True Christian Religion, Emanuel Swedenborg

 

[Katzpur]

Swedenborgianism claims to be the absolute truth. Don't most religions?

Seriously, RedRain, most don't. You would be amazed at how many religions (including Christian denominations) are willing to settle for 90% truth and say the other 10% doesn't really make any difference to God anyway.

 

[uss_bigd]

The first thing you to do is base your belief on something, not just what people will say.

Real Christianity is based on the Bible. it is an account where the true firsthand witnesses of Christ is written. such firsthand account cannot be found anywhere else.

find my thread ... the bible as biblical. scientific and God inspired.

 

[Katzpur]

Real Christianity is based on the Bible.

Marc, real Christianity existed for several centuries before the Bible came into existance.

it is an account where the true firsthand witnesses of Christ is written. such firsthand account cannot be found anywhere else.

Well, I beg to differ, but we're on a debate forum, so I guess that's okay.