Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[walt]

Yes, there are other nontrinitarian bibles out there teaching polytheism and henotheism, but two wrongs don't make a right! Look at the deceptions. An organization should not need to use deception to support its teachings. Deceiving while teaching doctrine is a warning that something nefarious is going on behind the curtain. Let's take the teaching that's done with Proverbs 8 to support Jesus being created.

You are deceived into believing that the wisdom is Jesus. But a closer look shows that: 1) Jesus is not the woman, wisdom. 2) the speaker is wisdom personified.

Proverbs 8

• 1. Does not wisdom call out, and understanding raise her voice? 2. On the heights overlooking the road, at the crossroads she takes her stand. 3. Beside the gates to the city, at the entrances she cries out: . . . 12. I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion. . . 22. The LORD created me as His first course, before His works of old. . . 29. when He set a boundary for the sea, so that the waters would not surpass His command, when He marked out the foundations of the earth. 30. Then I was a skilled craftsman at His side, and His delightd day by day, rejoicing always in His presence.

Yes, Jesus has wisdom, but where does it say this is Jesus?? And if Jesus is wisdom, who is prudence?? This is evidently deception!!!

I have deep respect for you because I was very much saying the same as you! I would fight tooth and nail because I believed in the Trinity and so did my whole family! I was 19 years old and every single person I came in contact with told me to stay away from anybody that does not believe in the Trinity.

The Apostle Paul when his name was first named Saul, Stood by the garments of men that stoned the Apostle Stephen to death, what Christians believed was so foreign and wrong to people like Saul, He Persecuted them severely and put them in prison. Acts 7:58, 22:1-5

Let me please give you an example of something I believe is true.

Read John 3:16 then read Luke 9:35 does this sound like they are not sincere and truthful? Or do their words sound trustworthy and right?

Tell me if somebody explained to you that Jesus and his Father's words Cannot be taken as the best advice ever, What constitutes trustworthy words? Could it be something they never said? No! Almost everybody on the internet can explain with tons of reasoning that Jesus is not really God's son. Jesus and his Father didn't mean what they said. You cannot take their words literally, here let me show you tons of reasons why this is true.

Do we use Jesus and His Father's words to comfort us and direct our thinking?
Sure Jesus refers to himself as "one and only son" "only begotten" "uniquely-born" or "only son", many bibles describe words differently, John 3:16 and the Father's words at Luke 9:35, Don't you think Jesus knows how a father and son in heaven is not exactly the same as a father and son on earth, but Jesus and his Father use words we can relate to and understand. Who is the one explaining Jesus is really not God's son?
Not Jesus! Not his Father!


Do we look for ways to second guess every word that Jesus and his Father say or do we defend, love and cherish every single word?

 

[Sargonski]

Hi @blü 2

Do you think that a family of three persons can have the same will all the time?

And when not , what would be neccessary for them to have the same will all the time?

Why would it not be clear to an onlooker which is which?

Think we have a nail being hit squarly .. "having the same will all the time" - is a requisite condition for these 3 entities to be the same Person.

Three personages .. with the same will .. at all times. otherwise .. if one of these personages has a different will .. thus different mind - if you will -- pun intended - than the other .. then we have a different person .. a different God .. not one God . but at least 2 .

Thus .. when discussing the cup handed him with "The Father" .. Jesus does not want to go through with the whole crucifixion idea .. but relents saying not my will but yours.

and I don't know how it can get any more anti-trinitarian than that .. sans perhaps when God - in some kind of masochistic delerium .. starts calling out to himself .. claiming to have forsaken himself .. "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me" Jesus thinking that God was not actually going to go through with the whole affair .. and step in to stop the human sacrifice .. like the Angel stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac ..

all about the sacrifice of the first fruits Lads .. har har har. ..

 

[Dimi95]

When Jesus prayed the Our Father prayer he didn't say

You are attacking words in Scripture

Matthew 6:9

"This, then, is how you should pray.."

One thing to note is when these sayings take place

Starts in Matthew 5:1
"Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them."

Ends in Matthew 7:28-29
"When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law."

Also Luke 11
"One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, 'Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.'
He said to them, 'When you pray, say:
"'Father,hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation.'"

Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread;a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.' And suppose the one inside answers, 'Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.' I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.
So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

Let OUR kingdom come...or let OUR will be done.

James 1:22
Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

You are replacing words , not good...

No, he said let YOUR will be done. Very interesting, thanks for bringing it up in a way.

Read Ephesians 2:11-18

"For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit."

From the Father , through the Son , in The Spirit.

This became problematic when Roman Church invented the "Filioque".

I understand that you can't understand

 

[SLPCCC]

They still are organizations by definition, and all these organizations were created by people.

I believe in God, so I think that Jesus created a spiritual church unlike an organized religion or cult.

 

[SLPCCC]

I have deep respect for you because I was very much saying the same as you! I would fight tooth and nail because I believed in the Trinity and so did my whole family! I was 19 years old and every single person I came in contact with told me to stay away from anybody that does not believe in the Trinity.

Do we look for ways to second guess every word that Jesus and his Father say or do we defend, love and cherish every single word?

Don't lose sight of the point. It's deception!! Never mind the Trinity. If you find that a religion is misleading, that should be a red sign for you whether or not they are peppering you with some truths. God is all Truth. You see one lie . . .Get ready to Run!!!

 

[walt]

Don't lose sight of the point. It's deception!! Never mind the Trinity. If you find that a religion is misleading, that should be a red sign for you whether or not they are peppering you with some truths. God is all Truth. You see one lie . . .Get ready to Run!!!

If Jesus and his Father's words are not dependable to the highest degree, whose words are?

 

[SLPCCC]

If Jesus and his Father's words are not dependable to the highest degree, whose words are?

Look this up and see how non-trinitarians twist this. Never mind the trinity just see how they twist it. It's all about deception.


Both Paul and Peter refer to Jesus as our "God and Savior."

Titus chapter 2
13 προσδεχόμενοι awaiting τὴν the μακαρίαν happy ἐλπίδαhopeκαὶ and ἐπιφάνειαν manifestation τῆς of the δόξης glory τοῦ of the μεγάλου great θεοῦ God καὶ and σωτῆρος of Savior ἡμῶν of us Χριστοῦ of Christ Ἰησοῦ, Jesus,

2 Pete 1:1
δικαιοσύνῃ righteousness τοῦ of the θεοῦ God ἡμῶν of us καὶ and σωτῆρος of Savior Ἰησοῦ Jesus Χριστοῦ· Christ;

Here are other scriptures:

"for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.," (2 Peter 1:11).

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first," (2 Peter 2:20).

"but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen," (2 Peter 3:18).

 

[Dimi95]

Think we have a nail being hit squarly .. "having the same will all the time" - is a requisite condition for these 3 entities to be the same Person.


Three personages .. with the same will .. at all times. otherwise .. if one of these personages has a different will .. thus different mind- if you will -- pun intended - than the other .. then we have a different person .. a different God .. not one God . but at least 2 .

Will and mind are not the same,you mix things up
The will is dependent on the mind.

For example
"You are your Father' Son , and you are your Son' Father"
Do you have different will as "Father' Son" from "Son' Father" ?

Thus .. when discussing the cup handed him with "The Father" .. Jesus does not want to go through with the whole crucifixion idea .. but relents saying not my will but yours.

John 10:18
"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

It is very strange how instead of "This authority" is "this commane"

In John 10 also:
"My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.I and the Father are one."
Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, 'I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?'
"We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are 'gods'? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

You understand claims and answers on claims

Btw ,What is his very own? Maybe John 1 can help

and I don't know how it can get any more anti-trinitarian than that .. sans perhaps when God - in some kind of masochistic delerium .. starts calling out to himself .. claiming to have forsaken himself .. "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me" Jesus thinking that God was not actually going to go through with the whole affair .. and step in to stop the human sacrifice .. like the Angel stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac ..

You read verses like literall , as oposite of what Jesus claims.
Why the need for parable then?

all about the sacrifice of the first fruits Lads .. har har har. ..

Where does it say that sacrifice was demanded before that part?

 

[SLPCCC]

I think you're getting things a little mixed up. The traditional translation is that The word was God. But that is not in all translations. That's just the top of the matter. Even if were so, however, that does not prove or show that there were three persons there, and that they were equal persons said to be one God. As you probably know anyway, there were no lower case and upper case letters in the earliest manuscripts to distinguish the words. How do you feel about that?

At John 1:1 in the original Greek, it seems that the writer knew about this scripture of Jesus being called "God" with a capital "G" because it reads in a literal translation "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word." The word-for-word translation reads,

In John 20:28 Thomas also says to Jesus, "The Lord of me, and the God of me." How do you answer this by saying that Thomas swore right in front of Jesus face?

 

[YoursTrue]

At John 1:1 in the original Greek, it seems that the writer knew about this scripture of Jesus being called "God" with a capital "G" because it reads in a literal translation "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word." The word-for-word translation reads,

In John 20:28 Thomas also says to Jesus, "The Lord of me, and the God of me." How do you answer this by saying that Thomas swore right in front of Jesus face?

Thomas was astonished, no matter. And since Thomas recognized Jesus as being more than a simple human he said what he said out of awe and wonderment. Jesus was given great power and privileges especially after his resurrection. Thomas knew Jesus before, didn't know at first if Jesus was resurrected and so when Jesus appeared to him, he was overcome.

 

[Truthseeker]

An organization, whether from God or man, has precepts and concepts and some apply rules to its content or members if there is an organized body or content. Hope you understand.

This from Wikipedia concerns me about Jehovah's Witnesses.

Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia

Jehovah's Witnesses' doctrines are established by the Governing Body.[287][288] The denomination does not tolerate dissent over doctrines and practices;[289] members who openly disagree with the group's teachings are expelled and shunned.[205] Witness publications strongly discourage followers from questioning doctrine and counsel received from the Governing Body, reasoning that it is to be trusted as part of "God's organization".[289] It also warns members to "avoid independent thinking", claiming such thinking "was introduced by Satan the Devil"[290][291] and would "cause division".[292] Those who openly disagree with official teachings are condemned as apostates who are "mentally diseased".[211][293]....

Jehovah's Witness publications state that consensus of faith aids unity, and deny that it restricts individuality or imagination.[302] Historian James Irvin Lichti has rejected the description of the denomination as "totalitarian".[303] Sociologist Rodney Stark states that Jehovah's Witness leaders are "not always very democratic" and that members "are expected to conform to rather strict standards," but adds that "enforcement tends to be very informal, sustained by the close bonds of friendship within the group", and that Witnesses see themselves as "part of the power structure rather than subject to it."[74] Sociologist Andrew Holden states that most members who join millenarian movements such as Jehovah's Witnesses have made an informed choice,[304] but that defectors "are seldom allowed a dignified exit",[211] and describes the administration as autocratic.[287]

Some Jehovah's Witnesses describe themselves to academics as "Physically In, Mentally Out" (PIMO); these individuals privately question certain doctrine but remain inside the organization to keep contact with their friends and family.[175

Anyway, I ask you to think for yourself when it comes to whatever is the rationale that independent thinking was introduced by Satan.

 

[SLPCCC]

Anytime the bible uses the word [ theos = God ] and to be called [ theos = God ] by a church father is the same. Isn't this the bottom line, does Jesus and his Father both teach Jesus is the Almighty, The Most High, The Highest or the one True God? [ No they don't! ] If you know anything about the early church fathers they all had one thing a common, they called Jesus [ God = theos ] just like Paul and Barnabas in the Bible. That does not prove any of the early church fathers wrote Jesus is the Almighty. Justin Martyr as well as many others said Jesus is the angel that spoke to Moses! I have a link that reflects this from 63 comments from church fathers reliable too!

Sure with the words [ theos= God ] and the word [ worship ] It seems the early church fathers use these two words towards Jesus, but the latin vulgate and any Catholic Bible, For around 2000 years uses the word adore and bow down, most everywhere throughout Catholic Bibles, [ not the word worship ], so when you see the word worship you really don't know if they're showing respect like to a king or a or a slave's master or any Lord. Are these really good reasons to believe Jesus is the Almighty?

63 Church Father Quotes on the Angel of the Lord​

See this Blog online:

Yes, there were some, like Arianism and the Gnostics. They were heretics who lost the debates and got kicked out.

 

[YoursTrue]

At John 1:1 in the original Greek, it seems that the writer knew about this scripture of Jesus being called "God" with a capital "G" because it reads in a literal translation "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word." The word-for-word translation reads,

In John 20:28 Thomas also says to Jesus, "The Lord of me, and the God of me." How do you answer this by saying that Thomas swore right in front of Jesus face?

I don't believe Greek at that time had lower and upper case letters, thus as time went on it was up to translator to decide. The Bible says, however, there is a god of this world. Who would you say that is?

 

[walt]

Look this up and see how non-trinitarians twist this. Never mind the trinity just see how they twist it. It's all about deception.


Both Paul and Peter refer to Jesus as our "God and Savior."

Titus chapter 2
13 προσδεχόμενοι awaiting τὴν the μακαρίαν happy ἐλπίδαhopeκαὶ and ἐπιφάνειαν manifestation τῆς of the δόξης glory τοῦ of the μεγάλου great θεοῦ God καὶ and σωτῆρος of Savior ἡμῶν of us Χριστοῦ of Christ Ἰησοῦ, Jesus,

2 Pete 1:1
δικαιοσύνῃ righteousness τοῦ of the θεοῦ God ἡμῶν of us καὶ and σωτῆρος of Savior Ἰησοῦ Jesus Χριστοῦ· Christ;

Here are other scriptures:

"for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.," (2 Peter 1:11).

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first," (2 Peter 2:20).

"but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen," (2 Peter 3:18).

Jesus is God and Savior in the Greek language, We speak English! back in the time of Jesus, Caesar was called the One True God. In the Greek language in order to know 100% positive anybody is to be considered The Almighty God or The Most High God you have to say the words that's it! Moses is called God [ theos ] in Greek. Is Jesus or his Father's words lacking in any way? Don't you think there is a reason why Jesus does not call himself Almighty God?

 

[walt]

Yes, there were some, like Arianism and the Gnostics. They were heretics who lost the debates and got kicked out.

Does it really matter what people call somebody else? Back then everybody considered the other person a heretic! Does it really matter if Jesus calls his followers zombies? What matters is only one thing don't you think, that we look for Jesus and the Father's words, believe in them, and put faith in them the same way they explain it, not in the way other people explain it!

 

[walt]

Yes, there were some, like Arianism and the Gnostics. They were heretics who lost the debates and got kicked out.

Can anybody kick out Jesus and the Father's words though? Does it really matter what people called them? I believe in Jesus and the Father's words! It really does not matter to me, what people call anyone!

 

[SLPCCC]

This from Wikipedia concerns me about Jehovah's Witnesses.

Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia

Jehovah's Witnesses' doctrines are established by the Governing Body.[287][288] The denomination does not tolerate dissent over doctrines and practices;[289] members who openly disagree with the group's teachings are expelled and shunned.[205] Witness publications strongly discourage followers from questioning doctrine and counsel received from the Governing Body, reasoning that it is to be trusted as part of "God's organization".[289] It also warns members to "avoid independent thinking", claiming such thinking "was introduced by Satan the Devil"[290][291] and would "cause division".[292] Those who openly disagree with official teachings are condemned as apostates who are "mentally diseased".[211][293]....

Jehovah's Witness publications state that consensus of faith aids unity, and deny that it restricts individuality or imagination.[302] Historian James Irvin Lichti has rejected the description of the denomination as "totalitarian".[303] Sociologist Rodney Stark states that Jehovah's Witness leaders are "not always very democratic" and that members "are expected to conform to rather strict standards," but adds that "enforcement tends to be very informal, sustained by the close bonds of friendship within the group", and that Witnesses see themselves as "part of the power structure rather than subject to it."[74] Sociologist Andrew Holden states that most members who join millenarian movements such as Jehovah's Witnesses have made an informed choice,[304] but that defectors "are seldom allowed a dignified exit",[211] and describes the administration as autocratic.[287]

Some Jehovah's Witnesses describe themselves to academics as "Physically In, Mentally Out" (PIMO); these individuals privately question certain doctrine but remain inside the organization to keep contact with their friends and family.[175

Anyway, I ask you to think for yourself when it comes to whatever is the rationale that independent thinking was introduced by Satan.

A common trait among cults and destructive religious groups is the practice of “shunning” members even if the members just simply walk away. Cult members are even required to “shun” the family members and friends who walked away. There is no honorable way out of a cult. While these groups often assert that the practice of shunning is a “loving” form of spiritual punishment, it is not a bible teaching. Yes, they shun those who "sin and don't repent" but it's not scripturally the same.

1) CULT DISCIPLINE - Disfellowshipping or Shunning Even If There Were No Sins Committed:

· Reading Anti-Cult literature
· Criticizing the teachings of the Cult
· Communicating with Ex-Cults
· Gambling
· Smoking
· Dating a non-Cult
· Many other offenses not mentioned in the Bible.


BIBLICAL DISCIPLINE - Only Expelling Sins – 1 Corinthians 5:11; Titus 3:10; 2; Thessalonians 3:6:

· Fornication
· Greed,
· Idolatry
· Reviling (insults, slander),
· Drunkard
· Extortion (theft)
· Walking disorderly (an idle or unruly life)

 

[SLPCCC]

This from Wikipedia concerns me about Jehovah's Witnesses.

Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia

Jehovah's Witnesses' doctrines are established by the Governing Body

If I remember correctly that title, "Governing Body," is why they insist on pointing out that an organization existed in the first century. So that they can connect it with their organization, the Governing Body. But the name Governing Body is nowhere in the bible. A red flag.

 

[SLPCCC]

Can anybody kick out Jesus and the Father's words though? Does it really matter what people called them? I believe in Jesus and the Father's words! It really does not matter to me, what people call anyone!

Yes, the JW does it all the time.


Hebrews 1:8 is a quote from Psalm 45:6 which reads:

• Psalm 45: 6 "Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity;
• Hebrews 1:8: . . . "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.

The JW changed their Heb 1:8 which supposed to be quoting Psalm 45: 6

• But about the Son, he [God] says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

Why do they do this? It's all about deception. They don't want you to see what it really says. Never mind the Trinity. You see deception, that's a red flag!!

 

[SLPCCC]

Does it really matter what people call somebody else? Back then everybody considered the other person a heretic! Does it really matter if Jesus calls his followers zombies? What matters is only one thing don't you think, that we look for Jesus and the Father's words, believe in them, and put faith in them the same way they explain it, not in the way other people explain it!

WT loves to be called Jehovah's Witnesses.

In Acts 1:8 it says, But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit has come upon you: and ye shall be my [Jesus'] witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Why aren't JWs called Jesus Witnesses instead of Jehovah's Witnesses? Jesus said you will be my witnesses (Jesus'), not Jehovah's Witnesses. In just this point right here you are not following scripture another red flag!