Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Trailblazer]

The denomination does not tolerate dissent over doctrines and practices;[289] members who openly disagree with the group's teachings are expelled and shunned.[205] Witness publications strongly discourage followers from questioning doctrine and counsel received from the Governing Body, reasoning that it is to be trusted as part of "God's organization".[289] It also warns members to "avoid independent thinking", claiming such thinking "was introduced by Satan the Devil"[290][291] and would "cause division".[292] Those who openly disagree with official teachings are condemned as apostates who are "mentally diseased".[211][293]....

This sounds more like a cult than a religion.

 

[Soapy]

When Jesus prayed the Our Father prayer he didn't say, Let OUR kingdom come...or let OUR will be done. No, he said let YOUR will be done. Very interesting, thanks for bringing it up in a way.

Jesus also did not say to pray to him, nor the Spirit of God - which would be the case if these two were indeed ‘God’.

I know it’s plain and simple but we must remember that the delusion is a STRONG ONE, as it is written:

• ‘God will send them a strong delusion such that they will believe the lie’

We cannot get away from this as a FACT and we see it in action right here among the majority posters. Should we believe that it could be any other way - and this is authoritatively true:

• ‘The word that comes out of my (YHWH) mouth will by no means return to me until it has achieved that which it was sent out to achieve’

 

[YoursTrue]

I think we have been through this before. The Father and the Son are two different persons. We can agree on that. Yes. One of the breakdowns starts to occur when your organization changes the reading at John 1:1 from "god" to "a god" in your bible to support your teaching. This turns John 1:1 into a polytheistic or henotheistic teaching. Don't you see? How can you trust this tampering of the bible?

Did Jesus deny, when put to the test, that the Bible says they (humans) are gods also?
Notice also, please, the difference of translations, as well as what Jesus said. He did not deny what the Bible said.

New International Version
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods"’?
New Living Translation
Jesus replied, “It is written in your own Scriptures that God said to certain leaders of the people, ‘I say, you are gods!’
English Standard Version
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?

Do you remember what scripture he was quoting from, calling these people 'gods'?

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus also did not say to pray to him, nor the Spirit of God - which would be the case if these two were indeed ‘God’.

Yes, I would agree.

I know it’s plain and simple but we must remember that the delusion is a STRONG ONE, as it is written:

• ‘God will send them a strong delusion such that they will believe the lie’

We cannot get away from this as a FACT and we see it in action right here among the majority posters. Should we believe that it could be any other way - and this is authoritatively true:

• ‘The word that comes out of my (YHWH) mouth will by no means return to me until it has achieved that which it was sent out to achieve’

Yup. I believe it's true.

 

[Sargonski]

You are attacking words in Scripture

Matthew 6:9

"This, then, is how you should pray.."

One thing to note is when these sayings take place

Starts in Matthew 5:1
"Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2 and he began to teach them."

Ends in Matthew 7:28-29
"When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law."

Also Luke 11
"One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, 'Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.'
He said to them, 'When you pray, say:
"'Father,hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come.
Give us each day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.
And lead us not into temptation.'"

Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread;a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.' And suppose the one inside answers, 'Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.' I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.
So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"


James 1:22
Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

You are replacing words , not good...


Read Ephesians 2:11-18

"For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit."

From the Father , through the Son , in The Spirit.

This became problematic when Roman Church invented the "Filioque".

I understand that you can't understand

There is another trinity path one can traverse via the Lords Prayer .. "Father " - "Hallowed be thy Name"

Did you miss it ?! -- goes by quick ..

What's in a name ? What is this Hallowed name ? and the identity of "The Father" .. .. the Hallowed name .. what is it ? because it is not "Father" .. this is an epithet. and you better know the name of the God to which you are praying .. otherwise that name is not so hallowed is it ?

 

[Dimi95]

There is another trinity path one can traverse via the Lords Prayer .. "Father " - "Hallowed be thy Name"

What's in a name ? What is this Hallowed name ? and the identity of "The Father" .. .. the Hallowed name .. what is it ? because it is not "Father" .. this is an epithet. and you better know the name of the God to which you are praying .. otherwise that name is not so hallowed is it ?

I see where this is going..

I have also seen your History "lessons" on other threads,not convinced.

You lack knowledge in philology , onomastics , etymology.

You don't posses the pre-conditions to even talk about Linguistic anthropology , so i don't want to start long discussions since i am occupied with so many data at the moment.

You said yourself that you are not so good with language , so to talk about History without that is pointless to me.

Nothing personal , be well.

 

[Sargonski]

Will and mind are not the same,you mix things up
The will is dependent on the mind.

For example
"You are your Father' Son , and you are your Son' Father"
Do you have different will as "Father' Son" from "Son' Father" ?





John 10:18
"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

It is very strange how instead of "This authority" is "this commane"

In John 10 also:
"My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.I and the Father are one."
Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, 'I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?'
"We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are 'gods'? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

You understand claims and answers on claims

Btw ,What is his very own? Maybe John 1 can help



You read verses like literall , as oposite of what Jesus claims.
Why the need for parable then?



Where does it say that sacrifice was demanded before that part?

I was just having a littel fun with the "Sacrifice" comment .. but a little serious at the same time .. do you not remember the sacrifices of the first born demanded or performed in the OT but this was a digression..

Trinity -- "Mind - Will" the same for the purpose of designation of autonomous personhood .. the trinity is brought into contradiction/polytheism either way. "of the same mind -- all the time" .. "of the same will -- all the time" either way the three entities may not deviate from each other .. "EVER" .. as if they do .. we are no longer a single God .. lest you want to call it the mind of God arguing with itself .. and explain the can of worms that brings up .. including explaining why the mind of a God arguing with itself is not .. Two separate Gods.

Two different will's .. two different Gods .. this is not to say that they will not concu on many issues "I am one with the Father" should be understood in that context .. as the trinitarian perspective makes nonsense out of the hundreds of times Jesus refers to "The Father" as an entity other than himself .. some of which you presented .. "Why you call me good -- No one is good"

Outside of that rather large contradiction .. the other major problem with Trinity Doctrine .. is that the identity of "The Father" is not revealed.
Hallowed be thy Name ... but not so Hallowed if one doesn't know what that name is .. now is it.

The Plot thickens when you trot out potential Candidates- for example .. who is the God of the Priesthood of Zedek ? - referencing Melchi-Zedek , and Adoni-Zedek

Who is the God of this Priestly Order .. of which both King David and Jesus are members.

Welcome to Polytheism in the Bible 201

 

[Dimi95]

Welcome to Polytheism in the Bible 201

Already gave my answer , already confronted that , arguments of ignorance exhaust me.

Sorry , can't do it , nothing personal.

 

[blü 2]

Hi @blü 2

Do you think that a family of three persons can have the same will all the time?

And when not , what would be neccessary for them to have the same will all the time?

No. Each person has a will, leaving them free to agree / disagree / don't know to any family proposition, which also includes levels of authority by which some command and some are commanded.

So it appears to me that EITHER God is a single entity and has one will (but apparently three faces, which [he] can employ as pleases [him], Father, Jesus, Ghost) OR there are three gods, each with its own will, Father, Jesus, Ghost.

If you have a coherent alternative explanation, please set it out.

 

[Sargonski]

Already gave my answer , already confronted that , arguments of ignorance exhaust me.

Sorry , can't do it , nothing personal.

No idea what you are calling an argument of ingnorance .. and you don't manage to tell us - so my apologies if I fail to sympathise with your exhaustion .. though I do understand necessary illusion bubble popage .. and how difficult that can be .. and after all, whats in a name .. who cares if one does not know the "Hallowed Name" who's Will will be done ..

More troubling -- If you don't know the Name of "The Father" .. then how can you do "The Will of the Father" .. Hallowed be thy name .. thy will be done.

Do you not know the sacred key friend ?! .. .the one that unlocks the pearly gate !? .. Do you not know "The Will of the Father" ? Matt 7:21

Those the only ones get through the gate mate .. better find out

 

[blü 2]

Do you not know "The Will of the Father" ? Matt 7:21

Nope, not Matt 7:21. What else you got?

 

[Sargonski]

Nope, not Matt 7:21. What else you got?

Matt 7 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Yes friend .. Only the one who does the Will of the Father - who is in heaven - gets into heaven. Believe it or Not !

How are you going to get to know the Will of the Father .. if you know not the "Hallowed Name" ?

Tell me you are not a "Free Pass ideology" adherent of Martin. .. think one can just waltz around judgement by sprinkling some water over head.

 

[SLPCCC]

Did Jesus deny, when put to the test, that the Bible says they (humans) are gods also?
Notice also, please, the difference of translations, as well as what Jesus said. He did not deny what the Bible said.

New Living Translation
Jesus replied, “It is written in your own Scriptures that God said to certain leaders of the people, ‘I say, you are gods!’

Do you remember what scripture he was quoting from, calling these people 'gods'?

Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.

1 God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”: 2“How long will you a defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked? 3 Defend the weak and the fatherless; uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked. 5“The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6“I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.” 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.​

There are two main views:

1) The “gods” are supernatural beings who rule under God. says, “God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods.” Some interpret this passage as God warning that those in the divine council who continue making unjust decisions will die “like mere mortals” and “fall like all other rulers”

2) The “gods” are human magistrates, judges, and rulers who have been granted authority in the earth. In this view, the whole point of is that earthly judges must act with impartiality and true justice, because even judges must stand someday before the Judge. 6 and 7 warn human magistrates that they, too, must be judged: “I said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’ But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” According to this view, God has appointed men to positions of authority in which they are considered as gods among the people.

When Jesus quotes this Psalm, Jesus’ is pointing to this: you charge me with blasphemy based on my use of the title “Son of God”; yet your own Scriptures apply the same term to others besides God. If those who hold a divinely appointed office or those who have a divine position in the spiritual realm can be considered “gods,” how much more can the One whom God has chosen and sent.

Once again, these are not gods who create. These are rulers.

 

[blü 2]

Matt 7 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Oops. My error. Apologies.

 

[Sargonski]

I see where this is going..

I have also seen your History "lessons" on other threads,not convinced.

You lack knowledge in philology , onomastics , etymology.

You don't posses the pre-conditions to even talk about Linguistic anthropology , so i don't want to start long discussions since i am occupied with so many data at the moment.

You said yourself that you are not so good with language , so to talk about History without that is pointless to me.

Nothing personal , be well.

Oh my goodness what a name calling pile of fallacious demonization ... not sure over what .. you speak about some History lesson you found less than convincing .. but never manage to support your claim .. as if you are unaware of what an argument is .. while being an expert in philology, onomastics and etymology.

and no.. why would I take a page of random insults.. from one clearly triggered by something but won't say what ... personal ? No wories on that front ..

Now .. what were these "pre-conditions" required to talk about Linguistic Anthropology ? ... LOL .. and can you give me one or two people who meet these conditions to talk to .. so we can finally figure out the creation story of our Canaanite Farmer in 1500 BC ... Wasn't it you who was going to tell us what the archaeology tells us about the Sky People .. .. so good to have experts around from which we can learn.

 

[Sargonski]

​

Psalm 82​

A psalm of Asaph.​

​

1 God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”: 2“How long will you a defend the unjust​

and show partiality to the wicked? 3 Defend the weak and the fatherless; uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.​

4 Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked. 5“The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.​

They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6“I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’​

7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.” 8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.​

There are two main views:

1) The “gods” are supernatural beings who rule under God. says, “God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods.” Some interpret this passage as God warning that those in the divine council who continue making unjust decisions will die “like mere mortals” and “fall like all other rulers”

2) The “gods” are human magistrates, judges, and rulers who have been granted authority in the earth. In this view, the whole point of is that earthly judges must act with impartiality and true justice, because even judges must stand someday before the Judge. 6 and 7 warn human magistrates that they, too, must be judged: “I said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’ But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” According to this view, God has appointed men to positions of authority in which they are considered as gods among the people.

When Jesus quotes this Psalm, Jesus’ is pointing to this: you charge me with blasphemy based on my use of the title “Son of God”; yet your own Scriptures apply the same term to others besides God. If those who hold a divinely appointed office or those who have a divine position in the spiritual realm can be considered “gods,” how much more can the One whom God has chosen and sent.

Once again, these are not gods who create. These are rulers.

No .. I go with Option 1) Gods .. while option 2) Magistrates - used to have credibility in serious circles .. that is no longer the case. And Current Bibles are Being RE-Written on this basis .. in this place and others - especially with respect to "Other divinities"

Here we have the New English Translation .. EL is the God EL obviousl Everybody in 1000BC knew of the Divine Council headed by EL. The footnote cited after the passage ..

YHWH stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment

c ) The phrase עֲדַת אֵל (ʿadat ʾel, “assembly of El”) appears only here in the OT. (1) Some understand “El” to refer to God himself. In this case he is pictured presiding over his own heavenly assembly. (2) Others take אֵל as a superlative here (“God stands in the great assembly”), as in Pss 36:6 and 80:10. (3) The present translation assumes this is a reference to the Canaanite high god El, who presided over the Canaanite divine assembly. (See Isa 14:13, where El’s assembly is called “the stars of El.”) In the Ugaritic myths the phrase ʿdt ʾilm refers to the “assembly of the gods,” who congregate in King Kirtu’s house, where Baal asks El to bless Kirtu’s house (see G. R. Driver, Canaanite Myths and Legends, 91). If the Canaanite divine assembly is referred to here in Ps 82:1, then the psalm must be understood as a bold polemic against Canaanite religion. Israel’s God invades El’s assembly, denounces its gods as failing to uphold justice, and announces their coming demise. For an interpretation of the psalm along these lines, see W. VanGemeren, “Psalms,” EBC 5:533-36.

When they sang this Psalm in the Temple of Solomon .. everyone listening knows exactly what the Council of EL is .. being raging polytheists to a person .. Canaanites to the Core .. following the 1000 year old religious practice they all share.

 

[SLPCCC]

I remember being told by a JW that not engaging in war is what makes them a true religion. What about:


Religions not engaging in War


The best known religions for their stance against war are the historic peace churches - Society of Friends, Mennonites and Brethren. Every major Christian denomination also contains pacifist factions. Christian churches known for their stance against war include:

• Moravians (one of the very first Protestant religions dating back to the 1500's)
• Brethren (Dunkards) groups, including
  • Church of the Brethren
• Anabaptist groups, including
  • Mennonites (16th century group numbering 1.5 million)
  • Hutterites
  • Schwenkfelders
  • Bruderhof Communities
  • Amish (numbering approximately 200,000)
• Society of Friends (Quakers)
• Doukhobors - 17th century breakaway from Russian Orthodox
• Molokans - 17th century breakaway from Russian Orthodox
• Some Pentecostal groups such as the Pentecostal Charismatic Peace Fellowship
• Seven Day Adventists
• Community of Christ
• Christadelphians
• Worldwide Church of God
• Pax Christi - A Catholic peace movement
• Fellowship of Reconciliation - A group formed in 1914 to unite pacifists regardless of denomination. All major religious denominations have affiliated associations including
  • Anglican Pacifist Fellowship
  • Methodist Peace Fellowship
  • Baptist Peace Fellowship
  • Orthodox Peace Fellowship
  • Lutheran Peace Fellowship
  • Presbyterian Peace Fellowship

 

[walt]

WT loves to be called Jehovah's Witnesses.

In Acts 1:8 it says, But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit has come upon you: and ye shall be my [Jesus'] witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Why aren't JWs called Jesus Witnesses instead of Jehovah's Witnesses? Jesus said you will be my witnesses (Jesus'), not Jehovah's Witnesses. In just this point right here you are not following scripture another red flag!

In your last two comments you Mentioned these scriptures: Hebrews 1:8, Psalms 45:6, Acts 1:8 & red flags!

Why do you spend all your time on so much information and scriptures to disagree with people that seem to be full of leprosy or the plague as respects their comments and scriptures they like? What makes you feel this way?

- I will try harder to be kinder, because Jesus tells me to love one another.
- If you have any advice, I would be happy to improve in some way you feel is better.
- I am just trying to do a couple things here, be kind and find as much agreement in Jesus, His Father, an Angel or any Apostle says and maybe an early church father that agrees with something Jesus and The Father already said.

The Bible only disagrees a little I just focus on the majority of agreements to guide me.
I Apologize if I have worded something in an unkind fashion. Your friend in Christ Jesus and his Father forever.

 

[SLPCCC]

In your last two comments you Mentioned these scriptures: Hebrews 1:8, Psalms 45:6, Acts 1:8 & red flags!

Why do you spend all your time on so much information and scriptures to disagree with people that seem to be full of leprosy or the plague as respects their comments and scriptures they like? What makes you feel this way?

I came not for the healthy but for the sick. LOL

To make it short, I used to have the Trinity booklet from the WT that I studied, and I believed in the things I was learning, but soon after, I became an atheist. After coming out of atheism, I decided to restudy the booklet, but this time, looking up their references and comparing the actual quotes. What I found stunned and angered me. I found lies upon lies. I love people including the JWs. So, I never hold back the things I learn.

You sound like a very nice person. God bless you.

 

[SLPCCC]

The Bible only disagrees a little I just focus on the majority of agreements to guide me.

Do you know that the scripture shows that Jesus says if you pray to him and ask him anything, he will do it?



John 14: 14 reads,

• If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it.

In the word-for-word translation, it reads this way.

• 14 ἐάν if ever τι anything αἰτήσητέ YOU should ask με me ἐν in τῷ the ὀνόματί name μου of me τοῦτο this ποιήσω. I shall do.

Acts 4:10,12 and 22:16

• “Let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead… there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.’ ‘…Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon his name.’”

Jesus said at John 6:45:

• “Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me.”

If you have learned from Jehovah, you are commanded to “come to” Jesus. Have you come to Jesus by asking Him to wash away your sins and to give you eternal life? How can you “listen to” Jesus voice if you don’t communicate with Him in prayer? How can you receive “everlasting life” if you don’t ask Jesus to give it to you? Jesus said at John 14:6:

• “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”