Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Brian2]

No Brian2, Jesus is not the only man who has been perfectly sinless. Adam, before he sinned, was perfectly Sinless…..! And he too, was called ‘SON OF GOD’ (Luke 3:38).

I was sinless as a baby but that means nothing. We have all fallen short of the glory of God, our righteousness is like filthy rags.

However, AFTER Adam sinned, yes, Jesus is NOW the only man who has been completely sinless… hence he, and hd alone of those of humanity, is called ‘Son of God’. Be it known to you that the holy angels of Heaven are ALSO ‘Sons of God’ and are entirely sinless.

I don’t think you thought out what you were writing else you wouldn’t have written it at all.

Please don’t embarrass yourself like this next time. THINK ONCE, TWICE, THREE TIMES… and then do not write it….!

Angels have done what is wrong also. But we are talking about humans here.

Brian2, who granted Jesus all power and authority? How can Jesus be equal to him who gave him power?

The Son was equal (Phil 2) and did not cling to that but became a man, a servant. It could even be said that the Father has always had all power and authority and the Son has always submitted to His Father,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but Jesus tells us that the power and authority of God belonged to Him, even while He was walking the earth (John 16:15)

And Jesus is not served by God. YHWH, The one true God is no one’s servant…!

The greatest in heaven is the one who is servant of all.
But yes, God is serving His own purposes by serving Jesus and putting all His enemies under Jesus feet.

Brian2, how can the Son be EQUAL to his Father if he has the fathers nature… The nature is FIRSTLY that of the Father. If someone else is cast upon the nature of the Father then it is NOT HIS NATURE but the FATHER’S.

Yes the Son is a chip off the old block and has always been that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, from eternity.

Brian2, if the Father changed His nature then the Son also MUST CHANGE HIS in order to maintain the nature of the Father in him.
But,Brian2, IF THE SON changes his nature, the Fathers nature remains as it is, and does not change to imitate the Son…

Neither the Father nor the Son change.

 

[walt]

Point of order: It s the Psalmist who, here, states the glory of God as Most High over the earth - not the Father, himself, as you stated here in error.

Psalms 97.9 in many Bibles, and languages. I don't really understand your point, how am I in error?

King James Version
97:9 For thou, LORD, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.

Psalms Chapter 97 - Parallel Hebrew Old Testament

Psalms Chapter 97.

www.hebrewoldtestament.com

97:9 KY-'aThH YHVH 'yLYVN 'yL-KL-H'aUrTSh M'aD N'yLYTh 'yL-KL-'aLHYM.

American Standard Version
97:9 For thou, Jehovah, art most high above all the earth: Thou art exalted far above all gods.

World English Bible
97:9 For you, Yahweh, are most high above all the earth. You are exalted far above all gods.

Psalm 97:9 - Let the Earth Rejoice

For You, O LORD, are Most High over all the earth; You are exalted far above all gods.

biblehub.com

Psalms/97:9 Because you are LORD JEHOVAH, The Highest over all the Earth and you are greatly exalted over all gods!
--Aramaic Bible in Plain English

https://studybible.info/HOT/Psalms%2097:9

כי אתה יהוה עליון על כל הארץ מאד נעלית על כל אלהים׃

Psalms 97:9 For You, Jehovah, are high above all the earth. You are lifted on high far above all God-like ones.

9 For You, Jehovah, are high above all the earth. You are lifted on high far above all God-like ones.

Psalms 97:9 כי For אתה thou, יהוה LORD, עליון high על above כל all הארץ the earth: מאד far נעלית thou art exalted על above כל all אלהים׃ gods.

Psalms 97:9 H3588 כי For H859 אתה thou, H3068 יהוה LORD, H5945 עליון high H5921 על above H3605 כל all H776 הארץ the earth: H3966 מאד far H5927 נעלית thou art exalted H5921 על above H3605 כל all H430 אלהים׃ gods.

http://sarshalom.us/resources/scripture/asv/html/psalms.html

For thou, YHVH, art most high above all the earth: Thou art exalted far above all gods.
כִּי־אַתָּה יְהוָה עֶלְיוֹן עַל־כָּל־הָאָרֶץ מְאֹד נַעֲלֵיתָ עַל־כָּל־אֱלֹהִים׃

Psalm 97:9 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

You, O Yahweh Elyon, are above the whole earth. You are highest. You are above all the gods.

I Always thought YHWH is the LORD in the Bible., I am trying my very best to agree with you, not disagree.

Thank You, I enjoy the information you bring to light. You said: I wrote something [ in error ] I could not find the scripture you cited, could you please tell me where to find that scripture in the Bible? I will try my very best not to be disagreeable again.

You said:
"Psalmist who, here, states the glory of God as Most High over the earth"
Where can I find this scripture please?

 

[metis]

I believe that the name was forbidden to be pronounced by the Jews for a while before Jesus came to the earth. @metis and @IndigoChild may have some information about this.

It could only be spoken in the Temple Sancturary on Yom Kippur by the High Priest.

 

[metis]

I believe the biblical Trinity is partialistic. This means that God consists of three different parts. An example of this is a triangle. It has three different corners that form one triangle. The three corners would be the three persons of the Trinity and together they are one God/triangle. Another example would be the color white. You need three different primary colors for the color white. The three primary colors would be the three persons of the Trinity and together they are God/white.

The Trinity also teaches subordination. But this subordination is NOT related to nature but only to the roles. An example of this is the human body. A human has one head and two arms. The head is the Father, the right arm is Jesus and the left arm is the Holy Spirit. In the hierarchy of roles, the Father is the first, the Son the second and the Holy Spirit the third. But in their nature they are the same!

As you can see, the biblical Trinity is partialistic, which means that the three persons are dependent on each other and are therefore only God together. They were never separate but were always together and will always be together. But the "mainstream" Trinity believed by Catholics says that the three persons are independent of each other. But then they cannot be one God! If the three persons are independent of each other then they are three different gods.

Furthermore, Catholics believe in the "Eternal Generation of the Son" which means that the Father begot the Son before the world. In other words, God has begotten another personal God. This is absolutely false and idolatry! The Son was only once begotten and that was at his human incarnation.

The Trinitarian concept in Catholicism uses the Greek concept of "essence" to try and explain the relationship of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as obviously these cannot be three deities. So, the teaching is that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God.

es·sence
[ˈes(ə)ns]
noun

1. the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character:
   "conflict is the essence of drama"
   
   philosophy
   a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.

 

[YoursTrue]

It could only be spoken in the Temple Sancturary on Yom Kippur by the High Priest.

That is what I understand. I am not sure when that practice started, however.

 

[metis]

That is what I understand. I am not sure when that practice started, however.

Really hard to say, but it is generally believed to have been started out of deep respect for God and His Divine Name.

 

[YoursTrue]

Really hard to say, but it is generally believed to have been started out of deep respect for God and His Divine Name.

That is what I remember learning, and yes surely to use God's name in vain is not good. But that's really only applicable today for those who believe in the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus. That's almost like not walking on cracks in the sidewalk as if it brings bad luck. You probably also remember learning that it was advised for Jews to spit when the name of Jesus was mentioned.

 

[metis]

You probably also remember learning that it was advised for Jews to spit when the name of Jesus was mentioned.

I belonged to a synagogue for over 20 years and never heard that.

 

[metis]

But that's really only applicable today for those who believe in the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus. That's almost like not walking on cracks in the sidewalk as if it brings bad luck.

In Judaism, it is done out of respect, not fear.

 

[Soapy]

I was sinless as a baby but that means nothing. We have all fallen short of the glory of God, our righteousness is like filthy rags.



Angels have done what is wrong also. But we are talking about humans here.



The Son was equal (Phil 2) and did not cling to that but became a man, a servant. It could even be said that the Father has always had all power and authority and the Son has always submitted to His Father,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but Jesus tells us that the power and authority of God belonged to Him, even while He was walking the earth (John 16:15)



The greatest in heaven is the one who is servant of all.
But yes, God is serving His own purposes by serving Jesus and putting all His enemies under Jesus feet.



Yes the Son is a chip off the old block and has always been that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, from eternity.



Neither the Father nor the Son change.

May God rebuke you though it is not you who Wills you to do as you do but you submit yourself to his Will… His Will be done by you!

 

[YoursTrue]

In Judaism, it is done out of respect, not fear.

Interestingly Wikipedia says the name "had ceased to be spoken aloud by at least the 3rd century BCE, during Second Temple Judaism.[19]". So that was a few centuries before Jesus appearance. He prayed God's name be hallowed,or sanctified. He didn't say to never use it out of fear to desecrate it. He told his disciples to pray for the sanctification. So the Name was spoken aloud for some time by the Jews.

 

[Soapy]

That is what I remember learning, and yes surely to use God's name in vain is not good. But that's really only applicable today for those who believe in the God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus. That's almost like not walking on cracks in the sidewalk as if it brings bad luck. You probably also remember learning that it was advised for Jews to spit when the name of Jesus was mentioned.

It is not ‘the name’ (the word, the letters) but rather what it represents.

The name of God represents all things good, all thing righteous, all things that are the law, all things holy, all things knowable, all power, and all authority.

Therefore, to bring ‘the name’ into disrepute is to lose its integrity, to make of no value, worthless.

Today, very few understand or respect the name of God: YHWH, because Trinitarians have discouraged the use of it, the utterance of it, denied the existence of it, refused to acknowledge it in polite conversation or in discussion.

But Yhwh knew this would occur and called it ‘The Spiritual Famine’ (in so many words!). But there will be an end to the famine - and woe unto those who caused the famine.

We who are of the truth try to warn others who are not yet believers, to become believers and eat of the spiritual food (truth) that is freely given to offsway the spiritual famine.

 

[YoursTrue]

I belonged to a synagogue for over 20 years and never heard that.

In Judaism, it is done out of respect, not fear.

I went to a synagogue for years and never knew that in many bibles, including Jewish and Christian ones, the name was hidden by the word Lord in capital letters. But that is not what the Hebrew letters say.

 

[YoursTrue]

I belonged to a synagogue for over 20 years and never heard that.

You won't hear it in synagogues.

 

[Soapy]

Interestingly Wikipedia says the name "had ceased to be spoken aloud by at least the 3rd century BCE, during Second Temple Judaism.[19]". So that was a few centuries before Jesus appearance. He prayed God's name be hallowed,or sanctified. He didn't say to never use it out of fear to desecrate it. He told his disciples to pray for the sanctification. So the Name was spoken aloud for some time by the Jews.

I would submit that we only know that the scripture Bible does not use the name of God BECAUSE the books of the Scriptures were written by Hellenist Jews who may well have decided to avoid the use where IT WAS USED.

I ask, why would there be nothing about Jesus using the name of his Father since Jesus had no fear of the Jews. Only those who feared punishment refused to use God’s name… Jesus wasn’t one of those!!

Moreover, since God’s name (‘YHWH’) is written in the Torah and the Tanakh, why would anyone avoid saying it when reading from those Scriptures if they were followers of Jesus [and not of the human law]??

 

[Spice]

That is what I understand. I am not sure when that practice started, however.

Probably with King David, since he built the Temple. I don't recall it being among the 613.

 

[Trailblazer]

Brian2, how can Jesus have ‘God attributes’ if he is a man?

Jesus has SOME of the attributes of God but not ALL of the attributes of God.
Other humans can also have the attributes that Jesus had, and they do, to a greater of lesser degree, depending upon how spiritual they are.

According to the Bible God is: Eternal, Holy, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, Immaterial, Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, and Patient.

According to the Bible Jesus is: Holy, Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, and Patient, but Jesus is not Eternal, Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, or Immaterial.

That is why Jesus cannot be God, since Jesus only has SOME of the Attributes of God, not ALL of the Attributes of God.

 

[Soapy]

Psalms 97.9 in many Bibles, and languages. I don't really understand your point, how am I in error?

King James Version
97:9 For thou, LORD, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.

Psalms Chapter 97 - Parallel Hebrew Old Testament

Psalms Chapter 97.

www.hebrewoldtestament.com

97:9 KY-'aThH YHVH 'yLYVN 'yL-KL-H'aUrTSh M'aD N'yLYTh 'yL-KL-'aLHYM.

American Standard Version
97:9 For thou, Jehovah, art most high above all the earth: Thou art exalted far above all gods.

World English Bible
97:9 For you, Yahweh, are most high above all the earth. You are exalted far above all gods.

Psalm 97:9 - Let the Earth Rejoice

For You, O LORD, are Most High over all the earth; You are exalted far above all gods.

biblehub.com

Psalms/97:9 Because you are LORD JEHOVAH, The Highest over all the Earth and you are greatly exalted over all gods!
--Aramaic Bible in Plain English

https://studybible.info/HOT/Psalms%2097:9

כי אתה יהוה עליון על כל הארץ מאד נעלית על כל אלהים׃

Psalms 97:9 For You, Jehovah, are high above all the earth. You are lifted on high far above all God-like ones.

9 For You, Jehovah, are high above all the earth. You are lifted on high far above all God-like ones.

Psalms 97:9 כי For אתה thou, יהוה LORD, עליון high על above כל all הארץ the earth: מאד far נעלית thou art exalted על above כל all אלהים׃ gods.

Psalms 97:9 H3588 כי For H859 אתה thou, H3068 יהוה LORD, H5945 עליון high H5921 על above H3605 כל all H776 הארץ the earth: H3966 מאד far H5927 נעלית thou art exalted H5921 על above H3605 כל all H430 אלהים׃ gods.

http://sarshalom.us/resources/scripture/asv/html/psalms.html

For thou, YHVH, art most high above all the earth: Thou art exalted far above all gods.
כִּי־אַתָּה יְהוָה עֶלְיוֹן עַל־כָּל־הָאָרֶץ מְאֹד נַעֲלֵיתָ עַל־כָּל־אֱלֹהִים׃

Psalm 97:9 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

You, O Yahweh Elyon, are above the whole earth. You are highest. You are above all the gods.

I Always thought YHWH is the LORD in the Bible., I am trying my very best to agree with you, not disagree.

Yes, ‘LORD’ is a poor substitute word (not even a title nor name) for ‘YHWH’. This is well known and only contested upon by Trinitarians when they try in futility to get out of a tight corner.
The Bible writers refused to write the name of God out of unfounded fear of misusing it…. If they weren’t misusing it they wouldn’t have any fear but they used to swear paths by the sacred name anc the break those oaths which brought the name into disrepute. Or they would pray insincerely ‘in the name of YHWH’… Or curse in the name hoping to bring misfortune on their enemies or even fellows.

Thank You, I enjoy the information you bring to light. You said: I wrote something [ in error ] I could not find the scripture you cited, could you please tell me where to find that scripture in the Bible? I will try my very best not to be disagreeable again.

You said:
"Psalmist who, here, states the glory of God as Most High over the earth"
Where can I find this scripture please?

I’m sorry I didn’t make it first. Let me try again:

You said that it is the Father who says of himself those words:

• “For You, Jehovah, are high above all the earth. You are lifted on high far above all God-like ones.”

It’s not spoken by YHWH. It is ‘sung’ (a Psalm) by the person, the psalmist, the songwriter, who wrote them ABOUT YHWH.

 

[walt]

Yes, ‘LORD’ is a poor substitute word (not even a title nor name) for ‘YHWH’. This is well known and only contested upon by Trinitarians when they try in futility to get out of a tight corner.
The Bible writers refused to write the name of God out of unfounded fear of misusing it…. If they weren’t misusing it they wouldn’t have any fear but they used to swear paths by the sacred name anc the break those oaths which brought the name into disrepute. Or they would pray insincerely ‘in the name of YHWH’… Or curse in the name hoping to bring misfortune on their enemies or even fellows.

I’m sorry I didn’t make it first. Let me try again:

You said that it is the Father who says of himself those words:

• “For You, Jehovah, are high above all the earth. You are lifted on high far above all God-like ones.”

It’s not spoken by YHWH. It is ‘sung’ (a Psalm) by the person, the psalmist, the songwriter, who wrote them ABOUT YHWH.

Does your explanation change anything? I'm sorry you feel I am in error. --Which scripture were you using to prove your point?

You Said,
"It's the Psalmist who, here, states the glory of God as Most High over the earth - not the Father, himself, as you stated here in error."
Which scripture are you quoting? That explains I am in error ? Which scripture please?

 

[YoursTrue]

Probably with King David, since he built the Temple. I don't recall it being among the 613.

According to what I read, it was about 2-3 centuries before Christ. So it was not ALWAYS the custom to shy away from pronouncing the name.