Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Soapy]

I would say both ways. That's why I pray to both. The father and Jesus.

Where is the command of directive to pray to Jesus Christ?

Jesus, himself, says to pray to the Father.

Whatever you ASK THE FATHER IN MY NAME….

‘In my name’ means

• ‘In the power and integrity, in the righteousness and truth, in the reverence to the Father, and in unselfishness which I represent’

When an officer (or anyone in a lawful agency) says like:

• ‘Stop, in the NAME OF THE LAW!!’

what do you suppose is meant by ‘the name of the law’?

 

[walt]

I have found that in many scriptures it's been this way and that way

Yes! I agree. Every Bible is written differently, look at the difference in each Bible, If Anyone Bases their beliefs on the Minority of scriptures as proof.

For example three scriptures say do this... and The Majority of scriptures gives clear and direct instructions to do it this other way.

If a person reads 100 Bibles, the wording is different in each one. So does that constitute having 100 different beliefs, just because each Bible translator decides to write his Bible differently. Does the Bible warn us about this, how does the Bible explain.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, NIV --2 Timothy 3:16​

​

“Keep testing whether you are in the faith, keep proving what you yourselves are.”—2 Cor. 13:5​

​

 

[SLPCCC]

Where is the command of directive to pray to Jesus Christ?

Jesus, himself, says to pray to the Father.

Whatever you ASK THE FATHER IN MY NAME….

‘In my name’ means

• ‘In the power and integrity, in the righteousness and truth, in the reverence to the Father, and in unselfishness which I represent’

When an officer (or anyone in a lawful agency) says like:

• ‘Stop, in the NAME OF THE LAW!!’

what do you suppose is meant by ‘the name of the law’?

• If anything you ask Me in the the name of me I will do it.

• “Let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead… there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.’ ‘…Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon his name.’” Acts 4:10,12 and 22:16:

Jesus said at John 6:45:

• “Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me.”

It seem to me that we are commanded to “come to” Jesus. How can you “come to” Jesus if you don’t communicate with Him in prayer? How can you receive “everlasting life” if you don’t ask Jesus to give it to you? Jesus said at John 14:6:

• “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

---

Does Jesus have the authority to forgive sins here on Earth? If he does, how can he forgive your sins if you don't ask him in prayer?

Mark 2
5And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7“Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” 8Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? 9“Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’? 10“But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—


I posted this earlier; apparently, you didn't read it. If you did but still can't accept it, that's ok. There's over a billion of us
Christian, that do.

---

Have you ever heard of Cognitive dissonance? Some things are hard to accept at first.

 

[walt]

I think you misunderstand or being a tad naive about the written scriptures.

The scriptures were not written down at the moment they were carried out or spoken. The apostles thought that Jesus was going to return within their lifetime and so did not write anything down. All testimony was carried out by word of mouth. It was several decades later that it was realised that Jesus did not mean ‘in their immediate lifetime’ and so began the writing of the NEW TESTAMENT.

By that time many false teachers had already ‘crept unawares into the churches’. And so those things written down were NOT EXACT wordings or NOT EXACT first-hand events like in eyewitness. Many iterations and personal ideas BUT WITH PRIMARY elements abounded and that is why apparent discrepancies exist in different gospels: THE ESSENTIALS are true though.

But please know, understand, of believe… there were many HELLENISTIC Christians who sought their own view of the messiah (Christ) and the nature of God.

Do you understand that they were GREEK speaking Christian’s… And what do Greeks believe as regards their DEITIES… their GODS…???

Yes, they are MANY. And they can COME INTO the human world and procreation children as DEMI-GODS!!! God-Men, possessing both the nature of men and that of Gods… What does trinity say about Jesus Christ???

But trawl through the MAIN scriptures - Jesus Christ, himself NEVER EVER claimed to be a Demi-God, never claimed to even be EQUAL to God (I use singular since the argument centres on ‘One God’).

What is WRITTEN is that THE JEWS CLAIMED that Jesus WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL to God BY STATING that HE WAS GOD’s Son.

But Jesus responded saying that Almighty God had called MEN of greatness, mighty men, Heroes, ‘GODS’ but yet these will nonetheless DIE. And we know that a true God CANNOT DIE!

In fact, Jesus DEFINED what he meant by “God’s Son” saying that if is ‘He who does the works of the Father’.. THAT IS A SON, and since the works are from the heavenly Father, YHWH, then he is doing YHWH’s works and can legitimately call himself ‘Son of God’ (though he actually never ever spoke that term but said only: ‘God is my Father’).

Now who would want to claim that Jesus was calling himself ‘God’… see here that this was NEVER a question. The Jews only FALSELY ACCUSED of claiming EQUALITY with God…
But WHO CAN BE EQUAL TO GOD?? Who is God’s equal AND ALSO the same GOD …AS GOD?
((What is wrong with language and linguistics in theology????))

We also read where a verse claims from trinity that Jesus created all things … YET when queried about this trinity says that Jesus didn’t create all things but that it was the FATHER through Jesus… Oh, how did Jesus create all things by HIMSELF if it’s was through the Father when Jesus says himself: ‘I can do nothing EXCEPT what I FIRST SEE THE FATHER DO’. Did Jesus see the Father create all things and then Jesus ALSO created afterwards?

Do not put the quandary on yourself - the illusion is broken as you can see the discrepancies in the trinity ideology. They must eternally ALTER their belief (see the numerous creeds as they are altered after being made aware of the errors::: the Spirit if God was not even a part of the original ‘trinitarian’ creed: The Apostles creed! Yet we are to believe that Jesus and God MAKE A TRINITY (did the trinity creators not understand basic arithmetics?)

Where do I stop… I need some tea…!!

 

[SLPCCC]

Yes! I agree. Every Bible is written differently, look at the difference in each Bible, If Anyone Bases their beliefs on the Minority of scriptures as proof.

For example three scriptures say do this... and The Majority of scriptures gives clear and direct instructions to do it this other way.

If a person reads 100 Bibles, the wording is different in each one. So does that constitute having 100 different beliefs, just because each Bible translator decides to write his Bible differently. Does the Bible warn us about this, how does the Bible explain.

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, NIV --2 Timothy 3:16​

​

“Keep testing whether you are in the faith, keep proving what you yourselves are.”—2 Cor. 13:5​

​

I don't agree that they say different things. They just word it differently. See Bible Hub Here you can easily compare. However, there are those who change scriptures to support what they teach, as I showed you earlier. But most are saying the same thing. See John 14:14 on Bible Hub

 

[Soapy]

• If anything you ask Me in the the name of me I will do it.

• “Let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead… there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.’ ‘…Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon his name.’” Acts 4:10,12 and 22:16:

Jesus said at John 6:45:

• “Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me.”

It seem to me that we are commanded to “come to” Jesus. How can you “come to” Jesus if you don’t communicate with Him in prayer? How can you receive “everlasting life” if you don’t ask Jesus to give it to you? Jesus said at John 14:6:

• “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

---

Does Jesus have the authority to forgive sins here on Earth? If he does, how can he forgive your sins if you don't ask him in prayer?

Mark 2
5And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7“Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” 8Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? 9“Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’? 10“But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—


I posted this earlier; apparently, you didn't read it. If you did but still can't accept it, that's ok. There's over a billion of us that do.

---

Have you ever heard of Cognitive dissonance? Some things are hard to accept at first.

In a court of law, whom does a defendant PRAY to through his lawyer?

Does he not appeal to THE JUDGE… does he not, through his lawyer, ADDRESS the Judge…?

Does the defendant direct his plea to the lawyer??

Who are we to appeal to in terms of prayer? Is it Jesus Christ, the Lawyer, or YHWH GOD, the Judge?

The lawyer TAKES OUR PLEA to the judge on our behalf. Irreverent pleas, selfish, untrue, dishonest… pleas never reach the ears of the judge as they are filtered out by the lawyer and never get passed onto Him. Only pure pleas reach Him.

 

[SLPCCC]

In a court of law, whom does a defendant PRAY to through his lawyer?

Does he not appeal to THE JUDGE… does he not, through his lawyer, ADDRESS the Judge…?

Does the defendant direct his plea to the lawyer??

Who are we to appeal to in terms of prayer? Is it Jesus Christ, the Lawyer, or YHWH GOD, the Judge?

The lawyer TAKES OUR PLEA to the judge on our behalf. Irreverent pleas, selfish, untrue, dishonest… pleas never reach the ears of the judge as they are filtered out by the lawyer and never get passed onto Him. Only pure pleas reach Him.

Isn't Jesus going to judge? In any case, I disagree with your line of reasoning. But it's OK. When I discuss scripture with JWs, I don't expect them to agree with me. I just show them why I believe what I believe. You could bring a horse to a pool of water, but you can't make them drink. I'm sure you can agree with that. I've debated other Christians on topics, and some have gotten upset to the point of turning red trying to convert me. Hey, whatever.

 

[SLPCCC]

Cognitive Dissonance: Our Battle With Conflicting Beliefs​

 

[walt]

I think you misunderstand or being a tad naive about the written scriptures.

The scriptures were not written down at the moment they were carried out or spoken. The apostles thought that Jesus was going to return within their lifetime and so did not write anything down. All testimony was carried out by word of mouth. It was several decades later that it was realised that Jesus did not mean ‘in their immediate lifetime’ and so began the writing of the NEW TESTAMENT.

By that time many false teachers had already ‘crept unawares into the churches’. And so those things written down were NOT EXACT wordings or NOT EXACT first-hand events like in eyewitness. Many iterations and personal ideas BUT WITH PRIMARY elements abounded and that is why apparent discrepancies exist in different gospels: THE ESSENTIALS are true though.

But please know, understand, of believe… there were many HELLENISTIC Christians who sought their own view of the messiah (Christ) and the nature of God.

Do you understand that they were GREEK speaking Christian’s… And what do Greeks believe as regards their DEITIES… their GODS…???

Yes, they are MANY. And they can COME INTO the human world and procreation children as DEMI-GODS!!! God-Men, possessing both the nature of men and that of Gods… What does trinity say about Jesus Christ???

But trawl through the MAIN scriptures - Jesus Christ, himself NEVER EVER claimed to be a Demi-God, never claimed to even be EQUAL to God (I use singular since the argument centres on ‘One God’).

What is WRITTEN is that THE JEWS CLAIMED that Jesus WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL to God BY STATING that HE WAS GOD’s Son.

But Jesus responded saying that Almighty God had called MEN of greatness, mighty men, Heroes, ‘GODS’ but yet these will nonetheless DIE. And we know that a true God CANNOT DIE!

In fact, Jesus DEFINED what he meant by “God’s Son” saying that if is ‘He who does the works of the Father’.. THAT IS A SON, and since the works are from the heavenly Father, YHWH, then he is doing YHWH’s works and can legitimately call himself ‘Son of God’ (though he actually never ever spoke that term but said only: ‘God is my Father’).

Now who would want to claim that Jesus was calling himself ‘God’… see here that this was NEVER a question. The Jews only FALSELY ACCUSED of claiming EQUALITY with God…
But WHO CAN BE EQUAL TO GOD?? Who is God’s equal AND ALSO the same GOD …AS GOD?
((What is wrong with language and linguistics in theology????))

We also read where a verse claims from trinity that Jesus created all things … YET when queried about this trinity says that Jesus didn’t create all things but that it was the FATHER through Jesus… Oh, how did Jesus create all things by HIMSELF if it’s was through the Father when Jesus says himself: ‘I can do nothing EXCEPT what I FIRST SEE THE FATHER DO’. Did Jesus see the Father create all things and then Jesus ALSO created afterwards?

Do not put the quandary on yourself - the illusion is broken as you can see the discrepancies in the trinity ideology. They must eternally ALTER their belief (see the numerous creeds as they are altered after being made aware of the errors::: the Spirit if God was not even a part of the original ‘trinitarian’ creed: The Apostles creed! Yet we are to believe that Jesus and God MAKE A TRINITY (did the trinity creators not understand basic arithmetics?)

Where do I stop… I need some tea…!!

I value your opinion very much and also I agree with you and the scriptures you value.

The Father gives himself all the credit saying [ that you alone are the Most High over all the earth. ]
Psalms 83:18


Jesus gives his Father all the credit as [ the only true God ].
John 17:3


The Apostle Paul gives all the credit to The Father saying [ for us there is but one God the Father ] --1 Corinthians 8:6
and says [ and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ ]

Don't you agree the Father, Jesus and the Apostle Paul combined is a great lead to follow? I just try to think like they think, I let them explain it. By respecting their words as the Authority. --Your Friend.

 

[walt]

I don't agree that they say different things. They just word it differently. See Bible Hub Here you can easily compare. However, there are those who change scriptures to support what they teach, as I showed you earlier. But most are saying the same thing. See John 14:14 on Bible Hub

I am not talking about one verse in the Bible, I am referring to every Bible, every verse in every Bible. There are no two Bibles alike!
It's hard for me to explain things sometimes, sorry I will try better as I go.

Let me say please, I think you as a person are a genuine, kind, concerned, loving individual and I respect your advice.

 

[Soapy]

Isn't Jesus going to judge? In any case, I disagree with your line of reasoning. But it's OK. When I discuss scripture with JWs, I don't expect them to agree with me. I just show them why I believe what I believe. You could bring a horse to a pool of water, but you can't make them drink. I'm sure you can agree with that. I've debated other Christians on topics, and some have gotten upset to the point of turning red trying to convert me. Hey, whatever.

Jesus gets to be the judge AT THE END OF TIME…

I AM not a JW… if that’s the best you can do then you need to rethink your attack strategy.

‘Convert you’… I’m not about CONVERTING anyone. The converting, if it comes to that, is from yourself that you’ve seen the truth and CHOOSE to change your ways towards the true way.

Your naivety is showing you up!!!

 

[walt]

Let's see. It depends on what's being focused on. There are many things that people will say, "it's either this way or that way; it can't be both ways." But I have found that in many scriptures it's been this way and that way. I found this to be true with Jesus and our Father. I'll post some of those finds when I have more time to write. This forum can take a lot of your time.

Most of the time I let the majority voice in the scriptures do the speaking, and the minority voice, is a much smaller voice. Why? One reason there is disagreement a little bit is because each Bible translator thinks differently.

[ majority + keep looking for bibles that agree with the majority ] most of the time you can find several Bibles that agrees with the majority.

That is my goal 100% agreement if possible. Sometimes it can be a little hard, with perseverance it can be done!

 

[walt]

Jesus gets to be the judge AT THE END OF TIME…

I AM not a JW… if that’s the best you can do then you need to rethink your attack strategy.

‘Convert you’… I’m not about CONVERTING anyone. The converting, if it comes to that, is from yourself that you’ve seen the truth and CHOOSE to change your ways towards the true way.

Your naivety is showing you up!!!

Your picture, you look really good for your age. My good friend just joking.

 

[Trailblazer]

Listening to the teaching of the church established by Jesus, the church of God, Provides the spiritual food required to grow in the truth.

Are you a member of the church of God? What does it teach?

 

[walt]

"it's either this way or that way; it can't be both ways."

Just a day ago you said this ["I would say both ways. That's why I pray to both. The father and Jesus."]

One day you say [ it can't be both ways ] the day before you say [ I would say both ways ]

I am just agreeing with you, it's hard to really know which way to go? So I just go with the majority! and keep looking until I find 100%!!

 

[Trailblazer]

The "mainstream" Trinity teaches three independent persons who are each fully God and yet one God. But this is a contradiction, because three different persons who are each fully God must be three Gods and not one God. However, the Trinity which I believe is partialistic, which means that the three persons are only together fully God.

I guess I am a little bit confused.
From what I know that the "mainstream" Trinity teaches three persons who are each fully God and yet all part of one God.
You are correct in saying that if there are three different persons who are each fully God that would be three Gods and not one God.

You said that the Trinity you believe in is partialistic, which means that the three persons are only together fully God. So are you saying that together, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit = God? Isn't that like saying that they are all part of the one God?

As I think I told you before, the Baha'i Faith has a Trinity belief but it is not like the Christian Trinity belief.

We believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are connected because they are ‘one in Purpose.’
In other words, they work together, but they are separate, not all ‘part of God.’
We believe that God is forever one and cannot be divided into Three Persons.

 

[SLPCCC]

Just a day ago you said this ["I would say both ways. That's why I pray to both. The father and Jesus."]

One day you say [ it can't be both ways ] the day before you say [ I would say both ways ]

I am just agreeing with you, it's hard to really know which way to go? So I just go with the majority! and keep looking until I find 100%!!

Yes, both ways meaning I pray to the Father and the son.

 

[walt]

Yes, both ways meaning I pray to the Father and the son.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, both ways meaning I pray to the Father and the son.

So do I.
I often go around the house screaming "help me Jesus, help me God!"
I hope they are listening.

 

[walt]

Yes, both ways meaning I pray to the Father and the son.

Hello, I hope Your day is going good and gets better each day, sincerely. We both look at things differently, how about you help me i'll help you and together We can find something magnificent and great! Let me explain please..

For a while let's forget about every single thing to disagree on.. and instead focus on the good things in the Bible we can agree on and build a friendship full of things in the Bible that bring comfort, joy, happiness, respect and the list goes on. And help others find good things too.

We both know we disagree, maybe that can be okay... I prayed Today, I pleaded with the Father and talked to him about the Apostle Paul being blinded It was like a gift to lose eyesight, because afterwards He turned into the best version of himself. I asked the Father to give any gift to help me become your servant, and see things like you Father.

Could you please ask in prayer, could you please help walt and others understand your words in the Bible. I think I read somewhere in the bible, The Father knows what we want before we ask. Just think if we all pray for each other, the effect it will have on the way we treat and feel about each other?

I myself, love a challenge. There is nothing I can't do for Jesus Glory and his Father's Glory!