Why So Much Trinity Bashing?

[Hockeycowboy]

I can understand you wanting us to hear from JW's. I am just concerned that perhaps he wasn't thinking for himself. I was quoting from what I hoped were relatively neutral sources. But I suppose neutrality in something like this is impossible. There was a paragraph I left out in my quote that I thought was too hostile.

I know from my own experience as a Baha'i that sources that are "neutral" are from those who don't believe, so it is no more neutral than from Baha'i sources. I apologize. There is no such thing as neutrality in religion. So what should I do? I'm not inclined to investigate JW as I prefer to look at the Bible Writings with an independent eye, and at any rate I believe in the meantime Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah have come to shed light on what the truth is on any aspect.

You are always friendly!
It’s a pleasure to dialogue with you. As usual.

Maybe we could discuss some issues amiably, one at a time?
Goodnight for now.

Have a good day.

 

[walt]

Understand everything in context.

Otherwise, it’s considered quote-mining.

Take care.

I need help, there are actually 3 scriptures that say it is okay to pray to Jesus 1 is 20 bibles out 75 bibles but the other two sound like it's okay to pray to Jesus. do you have any advice?

 

[walt]

Understand everything in context.

Otherwise, it’s considered quote-mining.

Take care.

what is quote-mining, what is your best approach?

 

[Trailblazer]

What does being “no part of the world” (John 17:14-16) entail, do you think? There’s more involved than just ‘not killing others’, I guarantee you!

John 17:14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.

I think being “no part of the world” means not loving our life in the world, as Jesus said in these verses:

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

 

[Soapy]

I believe the biblical Trinity is partialistic. This means that God consists of three different parts. An example of this is a triangle. It has three different corners that form one triangle. The three corners would be the three persons of the Trinity and together they are one God/triangle. Another example would be the color white. You need three different primary colors for the color white. The three primary colors would be the three persons of the Trinity and together they are God/white.

The Trinity also teaches subordination. But this subordination is NOT related to nature but only to the roles. An example of this is the human body. A human has one head and two arms. The head is the Father, the right arm is Jesus and the left arm is the Holy Spirit. In the hierarchy of roles, the Father is the first, the Son the second and the Holy Spirit the third. But in their nature they are the same!

As you can see, the biblical Trinity is partialistic, which means that the three persons are dependent on each other and are therefore only God together. They were never separate but were always together and will always be together. But the "mainstream" Trinity believed by Catholics says that the three persons are independent of each other. But then they cannot be one God! If the three persons are independent of each other then they are three different gods.

Furthermore, Catholics believe in the "Eternal Generation of the Son" which means that the Father begot the Son before the world. In other words, God has begotten another personal God. This is absolutely false and idolatry! The Son was only once begotten and that was at his human incarnation.

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

Both your belief and trinity are false.

It’s not clear where you get your belief since the scriptures clearly states that ‘the church is the property of God, Jesus is it’s head and the congregation are the body (the rest of the body).’

So GOD is not PART OF THE BODY… if Jesus is the HEAD the physical head and the congregation are the rest of the body (arms, legs, stomach, etc), where is GOD?

Can you compare the OWNER of the body to PARTS of the body??

It’s a dangerous thing to make up your own doctrine and try to teach it to others… in fact, it’s pointless since you are so easily found to be at fault like I just pointed out to you. Do you enjoy being laughed at? Or do you feel like you are A GOD seeking worshippers?

 

[Soapy]

Actually I believe exactly like you just explained. I agree with you. John 5:19 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

I could not find Jesus explaining anything about this subject.

The Apostle Paul says at, 1 Corinthians 8:6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one
Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Walt, Paul is talking about Jesus IN HEAVEN. Paul is saying that Jesus has power over all things as the Father has given him all power and authority to rule over creation… He already stated that ALL THINGS [come from] GOD - but then he says that they are MANAGED Through Jesus.

 

[Soapy]

If Jesus and the apostles had thought it essential to use the name Jehovah, the Gospels would have used the name Jehovah. The Gospels in the New Testament did not use the name Jehovah not one. Jesus and the apostles did not think using the name Jehovah. Whenever Jesus talks about God’s “name,” that name is always Father, not Jehovah.

In the model prayer that Jesus taught his disciples to pray notice how that prayer begins in both Matthew and Luke:

“Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified” (Matt. 6:9)
“Father, let your name be sanctified” (Luke 11:2)

Notice that Jesus did not teach his disciples to address the Father in prayer as “Jehovah God,” as Jehovah’s Witnesses routinely do, but simply as “Father” or “our Father.” Jesus refers to the “Father” ten times in the immediate context of the Prayer in Matthew 6:1-18 and three times in Luke 11:1-13. The Father is not called “God” or “Lord” even once in either of these passages. If context means anything, the name that Jesus wants his disciples to use and for the honor of which they are to pray is the name Father.

In John 5:43, Jesus stated, “I have come in the name of my Father”. Here again, Jesus does not use the name Jehovah at all. Jesus refers to the “Father” five times in the immediate context (John 5:36-45), never to Jehovah, though he does refer to “God” twice in this passage (5:42, 44).

The evidence is overwhelming that the “name” that Jesus revealed to his disciples was not Jehovah but the name Father. Jews occasionally referred to God as Father before Jesus came, but Jesus was unique in making this practice central to the faith life of his disciples. In none of the Gospels does Jesus ever express any concern or expectation that his disciples will use the divine name.

The name that was the focus of the apostles’ preaching and teaching was the name Jesus, not the name Jehovah. The name of Jesus is in fact the dominant focus of the preaching and teaching of the apostles throughout the Book of Acts. There are 28 distinct references to Jesus’ “name” in Acts (2:38; 3:6, 16; 4:7, 10, 12, 17, 18, 30; 5:28, 40, 41; 8:12, 16; 9:15, 16, 27, 28 [29 KJV]; 10:43, 48; 15:26; 16:18; 19:5, 13, 17; 21:13; 22:16; 26:9).

‘Father’ is not a Name; a personal epithet.

‘Father’ is a TITLE.

‘Jesus’ is the name; ‘The Christ’ is his TITLE.

‘YHWH’ is the NAME of the God of the Jews; ‘The FATHER’ is His TITLE.

The reason why the focus is on Jesus ‘the Christ’ in the New Testament is because GOD SENT JESUS WITH THE TESTIMONY OF GOD:
‘In the past, God spoke through the prophets… but in this time he has spoken THROUGH HIS SON’.

God is not interfering in the world because he has sent his son, born of a woman (meaning he is a HUMAN SON) to testify about Him. If God were to interfere it would mean that the Son is failing in his duty even though God has empowered him with His Spirit (hence Jesus is called, ‘the Christ’ - the Anointed one!)

 

[Soapy]

I cannot see how you survived doing this that long. It is an important mission even if you never convince any of those Christians to drop the Trinity belief.

From my youth I have seen the idolatry in the trinity doctrine. Attending [a trinitarian] church, I found too many errors and misquotes and irreverent offerings, which made me wonder how anything of trinity (remember that 90% is based on truth!) could be preached - and believed!!

I found Jehovah’s Witness to be initially inspiring because if WASN’T TRINITY-BASED but the soon realised that if was claiming that ‘Jesus was an Angel’ (???!!) - I ditched it. I nearly gave up studying after checking through a number of other Sects (they are CULTS, to me!) like Christadelphians, Seven Day Adventist’s, Oneness Apostolics/Pentecostals… they all contained massive misteachings yet appeared about 90-95% truth.

Where is the truth, I asked myself… The truth is found, I found, in Jesus’ words that the true church is SPIRITUAL… it is not a man earthly one ‘built of stone’. The many churches ‘built of stone’ are like the SEVEN CHURCHES OF ASIA MINOR that are spoken of in the book of Revelation - each are admirable BUT contains errors of management, spiritual outlook, greed, irreverence… Only the Spiritual church is pure!

Yes, listening to others is a learning experience and builds up strength for the reasons you gave.

Listening to the teaching of the church established by Jesus, the church of God, Provides the spiritual food required to grow in the truth.

 

[Cordelro]

The "mainstream" Trinity is not only believed by Catholics. It is also believed by most Protestants.
All I know about the Trinity doctrine is that it teaches that the three Persons are all part of one God.
How does it teach that the three persons are independent of each other?

Yes, many Protestants believe in the Catholic version of the Trinity.
No, the "mainstream" Trinity doesn't teach that the three persons are "part" of one God. The "mainstream" Trinity teaches three independent persons who are each fully God and yet one God. But this is a contradiction, because three different persons who are each fully God must be three Gods and not one God. However, the Trinity which I believe is partialistic, which means that the three persons are only together fully God. Catholics and many Protestants call the partialistic Trinity a heresy.

 

[walt]

From my youth I have seen the idolatry in the trinity doctrine. Attending [a trinitarian] church, I found too many errors and misquotes and irreverent offerings, which made me wonder how anything of trinity (remember that 90% is based on truth!) could be preached - and believed!!

I found Jehovah’s Witness to be initially inspiring because if WASN’T TRINITY-BASED but the soon realised that if was claiming that ‘Jesus was an Angel’ (???!!) - I ditched it. I nearly gave up studying after checking through a number of other Sects (they are CULTS, to me!) like Christadelphians, Seven Day Adventist’s, Oneness Apostolics/Pentecostals… they all contained massive misteachings yet appeared about 90-95% truth.

Where is the truth, I asked myself… The truth is found, I found, in Jesus’ words that the true church is SPIRITUAL… it is not a man earthly one ‘built of stone’. The many churches ‘built of stone’ are like the SEVEN CHURCHES OF ASIA MINOR that are spoken of in the book of Revelation - each are admirable BUT contains errors of management, spiritual outlook, greed, irreverence… Only the Spiritual church is pure!

Listening to the teaching of the church established by Jesus, the church of God, Provides the spiritual food required to grow in the truth.

Please could you provide a list of the 10% that you feel is incorrect. [ we could go over each point, one at a time ] So then we will Know for sure.

We could be very thorough! And focus on scriptures that clearly prove something!! Because it's Good to give something your very best effort!
I love a challenge, especially about the best subject under the sun, Jesus and his Father and Everlasting life!

 

[Soapy]

Please could you provide a list of the 10% that you feel is incorrect. [ we could go over each point, one at a time ] So then we will Know for sure.

The closer you get to the truth the harder it is to prove the smaller aspects because Satan has mixed truth with falsity so well. The answer is FAITH. If we have faith in the truth then all becomes clear without EXACT PROOF.

We do this in humanity: What is the EXACT VALUE of PI (the mathematical constant that is the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter, approximately equal to 3.14159)

We can never PROVE the value EXACTLY but we have FAITH that when dealing with circles on any level that PI will work fully for us - and it does.

If you read enough of my posts you will often see that I call out even tho use I regard as ‘friends’ here for small errors of belief and definitions of things in belief. Yes, I seek greater ‘approximation’ of the truth - 99% and greater BUT only those of the ELECT of God have full truth - and no one can point one out saying ‘You are one - I will believe what you say!’ since even then someone will say, ‘I don’t believe that part or this part’ because we all seek our own glory - Not all are willing to be taught!

You are going to ask if I am one who is not willing to be taught? I AM willing to be taught BUT not to tell lies and falsities.

Do I seek my own glory? I seek the glory of expressing the truth of God, the Father, and His Christ, the Lord Jesus.

We could be very thorough! And focus on scriptures that clearly prove something!! Because it's Good to give something your very best effort!
I love a challenge, especially about the best subject under the sun, Jesus and his Father and Everlasting life!

PROOF is going to be a downfall. It shouldn’t be the primary aspect of what is sought in regarding to truth. FAITH comes first. Jesus was confronted by people in his time who demanded PROOF for things in order to believe what Jesus was telling them. Jesus responded:

• ‘The Greeks seek proof… but it will not be shown to them’ (paraphrased)

The Jews, specifically, sought a sign (its their way towards believing!) but Jesus says that no sign will be shown to - except the sign of Jonah, which is that ‘like the city of Nineveh, If you repent of your ways and listen to the messenger who is from God then you will be saved’

 

[walt]

Yes, many Protestants believe in the Catholic version of the Trinity.
No, the "mainstream" Trinity doesn't teach that the three persons are "part" of one God. The "mainstream" Trinity teaches three independent persons who are each fully God and yet one God. But this is a contradiction, because three different persons who are each fully God must be three Gods and not one God. However, the Trinity which I believe is partialistic, which means that the three persons are only together fully God. Catholics and many Protestants call the partialistic Trinity a heresy.

I agree with you 1000%. Here is my bottom line.. We are all claiming to be Christians, Does Jesus explain any version of any Trinity?
[ No He 1,000% does not! ] If Jesus words are not the most trustworthy thing in Christianity? Whose words are supposed to be trustworthy?

If Jesus does I would like to see it! The [ I AM ] scripture, Jesus saying "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father"
"I and the Father are one.” Thomas saying "My lord My God" [ Is Jesus or Thomas explaining ] "Three of Anything being one God? All Three Equal in Power?" None of Jesus words Explain any version of any Trinity whatsoever.

Does Jesus teach anywhere, it's okay just to do whatever you think is best? [ No he does not! ] A voice from heaven said this is my son the beloved, listen to him!

 

[walt]

The closer you get to the truth the harder it is to prove the smaller aspects because Satan has mixed truth with falsity so well. The answer is FAITH. If we have faith in the truth then all becomes clear without EXACT PROOF.

We do this in humanity: What is the EXACT VALUE of PI (the mathematical constant that is the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter, approximately equal to 3.14159)

We can never PROVE the value EXACTLY but we have FAITH that when dealing with circles on any level that PI will work fully for us - and it does.

If you read enough of my posts you will often see that I call out even tho use I regard as ‘friends’ here for small errors of belief and definitions of things in belief. Yes, I seek greater ‘approximation’ of the truth - 99% and greater BUT only those of the ELECT of God have full truth - and no one can point one out saying ‘You are one - I will believe what you say!’ since even then someone will say, ‘I don’t believe that part or this part’ because we all seek our own glory - Not all are willing to be taught!

You are going to ask if I am one who is not willing to be taught? I AM willing to be taught BUT not to tell lies and falsities.

Do I seek my own glory? I seek the glory of expressing the truth of God, the Father, and His Christ, the Lord Jesus.

PROOF is going to be a downfall. It shouldn’t be the primary aspect of what is sought in regarding to truth. FAITH comes first. Jesus was confronted by people in his time who demanded PROOF for things in order to believe what Jesus was telling them. Jesus responded:

• ‘The Greeks seek proof… but it will not be shown to them’ (paraphrased)

The Jews, specifically, sought a sign (its their way towards believing!) but Jesus says that no sign will be shown to - except the sign of Jonah, which is that ‘like the city of Nineveh, If you repent of your ways and listen to the messenger who is from God then you will be saved’

If Jesus words are not the most trustworthy thing in Christianity, Whose words are trustworthy?

I think it is very important to focus on Jesus words alone. By themselves. Yes! Always remember satan is all around us and keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. I think the more you become absorbed in whatever you find good, by doing this you transform your thinking and your whole life changes for the better.

But if there is anything that brings you Joy and Comfort, focus and think about that. May You increase in Happiness Loving Jesus and his Father.
All My Dearest Friends in Christ Jesus and his Father Forever. Everyone Everywhere is My Dearest Friend.

 

[SLPCCC]

My new friend, here you are talking about, no salvation in anyone else, praying to Jesus and another name under heaven, I am not as multi-talented like that, I have to take a single-minded approach, only one point at a time. could you please give me all the scriptures you can find were the scripture
[ says specifically to pray directly to Jesus just like the one you have posted John 14:14 ].

Personally, I say the "Our Father" and also go to Jesus in prayer.

• “Let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead… there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.’ ‘…Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon his name.’” Acts 4:10,12 and 22:16:

Jesus said at John 6:45:

• “Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me.”

It seem to me that we are commanded to “come to” Jesus. How can you “come to” Jesus if you don’t communicate with Him in prayer? How can you receive “everlasting life” if you don’t ask Jesus to give it to you? Jesus said at John 14:6:

• “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

---

Does Jesus have the authority to forgive sins here on Earth? If he does, how can he forgive your sins if you don't ask him in prayer?

Mark 2
5And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7“Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” 8Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? 9“Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’? 10“But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—

 

[SLPCCC]

I found some more scriptures that actually agree with your position, okay.. just thinking about one point at a time.

What if scripture proof is 50/50, 50% evidence one way, 50% the another way. [ both ways ] = Meaning the bible actually supports two ways of thinking. Would you agree we could pick either way or both ways? What's your feelings on that? So then if 50/50 is the case, we just move on to the next point of interest? [ I'm just waiting for the scriptures you're going to provide on the one point only ]. Thanks.

I would say both ways. That's why I pray to both. The father and Jesus.

 

[walt]

I would say both ways. That's why I pray to both. The father and Jesus.

A very good point, that is the way I would think too. we will see if it is 50/50? Would it change if the situation turns out to be
[ Majority one way / Minority other. ] ?

 

[SLPCCC]

There are Two categories there, not just one: “Who are 1) no part / not of the world *and* 2) learn war no more?”

What does being “no part of the world” (John 17:14-16) entail, do you think? There’s more involved than just ‘not killing others’, I guarantee you!

I really don’t think you’ll be honest…. earlier, in another post, you said something about learning from JW’s, but then you became an atheist? That just doesn’t ring true. It’s almost like an oxymoron.

I'm sure most, if not all, of those religions would say that they are not part of the world, and that is why they don't participate in the war.

I grew up in the streets with a bunch of other kids. Believe it or not, we used to get high on drugs and talk about the bible. There was one kid among us who, I think was a JW, used to preach to us about Jehovah, Trinity, etc. I know his father was a JW. I know it sounds strange that we were using and talking about God, but at the time, we didn't know any better. I didn't know I was sinning. I remember he brought me a book. I read some of it and had questions. This led me to stop to talk with JWs in the street when I saw them. I didn't have bible studies, but they used to give me magazines. I think that's how I got the Trinity book. I believed the things I read but I never converted being so young and lost. I even went to the Kingdom Hall. One young minster tried to have a bible study with me in his car because he couldn't come to my house. My mom didn't want them there and I was hardly ever home. To make it short, I lost contact with those JWs and went through hard times to the point that I couldn't believe in a God anymore. That's how I became an atheist. I couldn't understand how God could allow me/people to suffer so much and exist.

 

[SLPCCC]

Understand everything in context.

Otherwise, it’s considered quote-mining.

Take care.

What is quote-mining, and what's wrong with it?

 

[SLPCCC]

A very good point, that is the way I would think too. we will see if it is 50/50? Would it change if the situation turns out to be
[ Majority one way / Minority other. ] ?

Let's see. It depends on what's being focused on. There are many things that people will say, "it's either this way or that way; it can't be both ways." But I have found that in many scriptures it's been this way and that way. I found this to be true with Jesus and our Father. I'll post some of those finds when I have more time to write. This forum can take a lot of your time.

 

[Soapy]

If Jesus words are not the most trustworthy thing in Christianity, Whose words are trustworthy?

I think it is very important to focus on Jesus words alone. By themselves. Yes! Always remember satan is all around us and keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. I think the more you become absorbed in whatever you find good, by doing this you transform your thinking and your whole life changes for the better.

But if there is anything that brings you Joy and Comfort, focus and think about that. May You increase in Happiness Loving Jesus and his Father.
All My Dearest Friends in Christ Jesus and his Father Forever. Everyone Everywhere is My Dearest Friend.

I think you misunderstand or being a tad naive about the written scriptures.

The scriptures were not written down at the moment they were carried out or spoken. The apostles thought that Jesus was going to return within their lifetime and so did not write anything down. All testimony was carried out by word of mouth. It was several decades later that it was realised that Jesus did not mean ‘in their immediate lifetime’ and so began the writing of the NEW TESTAMENT.

By that time many false teachers had already ‘crept unawares into the churches’. And so those things written down were NOT EXACT wordings or NOT EXACT first-hand events like in eyewitness. Many iterations and personal ideas BUT WITH PRIMARY elements abounded and that is why apparent discrepancies exist in different gospels: THE ESSENTIALS are true though.

But please know, understand, of believe… there were many HELLENISTIC Christians who sought their own view of the messiah (Christ) and the nature of God.

Do you understand that they were GREEK speaking Christian’s… And what do Greeks believe as regards their DEITIES… their GODS…???

Yes, they are MANY. And they can COME INTO the human world and procreation children as DEMI-GODS!!! God-Men, possessing both the nature of men and that of Gods… What does trinity say about Jesus Christ???

But trawl through the MAIN scriptures - Jesus Christ, himself NEVER EVER claimed to be a Demi-God, never claimed to even be EQUAL to God (I use singular since the argument centres on ‘One God’).

What is WRITTEN is that THE JEWS CLAIMED that Jesus WAS MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL to God BY STATING that HE WAS GOD’s Son.

But Jesus responded saying that Almighty God had called MEN of greatness, mighty men, Heroes, ‘GODS’ but yet these will nonetheless DIE. And we know that a true God CANNOT DIE!

In fact, Jesus DEFINED what he meant by “God’s Son” saying that if is ‘He who does the works of the Father’.. THAT IS A SON, and since the works are from the heavenly Father, YHWH, then he is doing YHWH’s works and can legitimately call himself ‘Son of God’ (though he actually never ever spoke that term but said only: ‘God is my Father’).

Now who would want to claim that Jesus was calling himself ‘God’… see here that this was NEVER a question. The Jews only FALSELY ACCUSED of claiming EQUALITY with God…
But WHO CAN BE EQUAL TO GOD?? Who is God’s equal AND ALSO the same GOD …AS GOD?
((What is wrong with language and linguistics in theology????))

We also read where a verse claims from trinity that Jesus created all things … YET when queried about this trinity says that Jesus didn’t create all things but that it was the FATHER through Jesus… Oh, how did Jesus create all things by HIMSELF if it’s was through the Father when Jesus says himself: ‘I can do nothing EXCEPT what I FIRST SEE THE FATHER DO’. Did Jesus see the Father create all things and then Jesus ALSO created afterwards?

Do not put the quandary on yourself - the illusion is broken as you can see the discrepancies in the trinity ideology. They must eternally ALTER their belief (see the numerous creeds as they are altered after being made aware of the errors::: the Spirit if God was not even a part of the original ‘trinitarian’ creed: The Apostles creed! Yet we are to believe that Jesus and God MAKE A TRINITY (did the trinity creators not understand basic arithmetics?)

Where do I stop… I need some tea…!!