Why the Burden of Proof is a Bad Argument

[Copernicus]

You proposed a Venn diagram, V - E - N - N, so let's not be changing horses mid-stream here. Moreover, I suspect that when you said "Do you want me to draw you a Venn diagram?" you had no idea of what a Venn diagram is. In any case, I have no interest in pursuing your little project here, concentric circles or not, or your constant reformations of post content.

Have a good day friend Copernicus.

Look, I'm sorry if I upset you, but I think you really misunderstood what I was saying. Venn diagrams can show inclusion relationships, but I really think you had some other interpretation in mind. I didn't.

 

[Nakosis]

I don't believe in commandments from God in general, but regardless, let's not put the cart before the horse: first come up with even one moral standard that's applied universally and then we can talk about whether that standard is "right" or if it's endorsed by God.

I did provide the commandments of Jesus. They would I suppose by divine decree be universally good for man right. I don't know about the bees and stuff....

 

[Thief]

So yo must have proof then, if not why argue, and if you do have proof I would love to hear it.

How about good reason...as the experiment won't fit in the petri dish.

The universe is the effect...God is the Cause.

 

[McBell]

How about good reason...as the experiment won't fit in the petri dish.

The universe is the effect...God is the Cause.

What caused God?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I did provide the commandments of Jesus. They would I suppose by divine decree be universally good for man right. I don't know about the bees and stuff....

If a command is just for humans, then it's not universal.

And again, this is all the preliminary stuff before we even consider whether any particular universal decree is good or bad.

 

[Bunyip]

What caused God?

Fear.

 

[LuisDantas]

Guys having a hay day with that strawman, I see.

What strawman?

 

[Breathe]

Do you think of the Republican party as a religion? Or the democratic party?

Not quite, although to some they can be. See the answer below.

Or Feminism as a movement?

Sometimes it can be. Same as multiculturalism, sports, drinking, and many other things. Not necessarily in themselves, though, but they are definitely treated with the same fervour one can find in the newly converted by some of their... adherents, I guess.
I reject the dichotomy of "religion - science - politics - culture", though; I believe they all have an impact on one-another, regardless of how we feel about them.

What classifies something as a political movement vs a religion?

That's probably worthy of its own thread, man. Suffice to say that there is often a blurry line and no clear-cut answer. Sometimes they just, well, are. I suppose it's the same way as someone with a foot fetish can tell 'good feet' from 'bad feet'. I have no idea since I don't share it, and they can't express it, other than they know and seem to agree on it.

 

[Breathe]

Guys having a hay day with that strawman, I see.

Welcome to my world.

 

[Thief]

What caused God?

God of course.
(if you insist on a hall of mirrors...fine.....there you go)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God of course.
(if you insist on a hall of mirrors...fine.....there you go)

I thought you said you have "good reason". Unsubstantiated claims of seemingly nonsensical things are not "good reason".

 

[Nakosis]

If a command is just for humans, then it's not universal.

And again, this is all the preliminary stuff before we even consider whether any particular universal decree is good or bad.

Well what I'm trying to say is that without God there is no universal standard for good or evil.

So unless one first postulates the existence of God there is I suppose little basis for a discussion about good and evil or absolute morals.

No God, no universal standard.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well what I'm trying to say is that without God there is no universal standard for good or evil.

But that is plainly not only untrue, but basically the opposite of truth.

Why would you think so?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well what I'm trying to say is that without God there is no universal standard for good or evil.

So unless one first postulates the existence of God there is I suppose little basis for a discussion about good and evil or absolute morals.

No God, no universal standard.

And what I'm saying is that God is irrelevant to morality, so if there's no universal standard without God, there's no universal standard with him, either.

But I think you're presenting a false dichotomy. We can infer moral principles that apply to humanity, even if they're only relevant to us, and even if we can't say with certainty which of a set of actions is the objective "best".

Morality is like nutrition or health: even though we can have legitimate disagreements about whether an Atkins diet or a vegan diet is more nutritious, this doesn't stop us from saying that rat poison is unhealthy.

 

[LuisDantas]

Welcome to my world.

I truly wish I had some idea of what you are talking about. I do not.

 

[Nakosis]

I see God as a postulate. A point to start a discussion or develop a theory from.

As a postulate you don't prove God/ You either accept God's existence or you don't.

There is a cause of the universe. That cause is God.
What caused God? Undetermined. What caused the cause... ad infinitum.

God is the starting point. We can assume a cause but the point at which the discussion starts is at God.

God is not a proof. God is a definition. God is the cause/creator. So it is not a matter of proving God it is a matter of accepting a definition.

 

[Nakosis]

And what I'm saying is that God is irrelevant to morality, so if there's no universal standard without God, there's no universal standard with him, either.

But I think you're presenting a false dichotomy. We can infer moral principles that apply to humanity, even if they're only relevant to us, and even if we can't say with certainty which of a set of actions is the objective "best".

Morality is like nutrition or health: even though we can have legitimate disagreements about whether an Atkins diet or a vegan diet is more nutritious, this doesn't stop us from saying that rat poison is unhealthy.

Ok, well maybe the word universal is confusing the point.

If there is a God and God provides the standards of right and wrong for man, that is the only way man could have a standard for right and wrong that is absolute.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Well what I'm trying to say is that without God there is no universal standard for good or evil.

So unless one first postulates the existence of God there is I suppose little basis for a discussion about good and evil or absolute morals.

No God, no universal standard.

There is no universal standard even with God. That's because a moral standard must exist in the form of human words.

So two questions:

1) What, exactly, are those words, and how do we know they come from God?

2) Who is the final judge of how those words are to be interpreted regarding particular instances of human behavior?

In secular matters, the answers are pretty clear. The words are those statutes, currently in force, as created and voted upon by the political authority under which one lives. They are interpreted, as regards any particular case, by a judge or jury duly authorized by the political authority.

Something like that.

The problem with moral law is that we have thousands of prophets, each one proclaiming the actual law of God. And they don't even do it with any detail. Sometimes just a curt ten Shalt-Nots on a stone tablet. And then, a million preachers, priests, rabbis, etc., to give their opinions as to whether a particular behavior violates or doesn't violate the supposed law.

Moral law is a morass. Moral law means 'personal opinion of morality.'

 

[Nakosis]

Morality is like nutrition or health: even though we can have legitimate disagreements about whether an Atkins diet or a vegan diet is more nutritious, this doesn't stop us from saying that rat poison is unhealthy.

I don't see how this provides a standard for right and wrong though.

Rat poison is a good thing if you want to get rid of rats.

Maybe a good thing if you want to get rid of other humans too.

 

[Breathe]

I truly wish I had some idea of what you are talking about. I do not.

This is an all too common scenario for me to witness or be part of. Depressingly so.