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Why the divide between Science and Religion...

JerryL

Well-Known Member
I have no idea who started it. We could save a lot of time typing if you wouldn't be so picky. The point is, it was being taught contrary to Scripture.
I thought that your point was that it was scientifically esablished.

Contrary to scripture? Please cite the scripture that claims the Earth is not flat.

Cute --- real cute.
That's your thought on the word of God? I think he'd be pissed.

I gave you two, how many more do you want???
OMFG you think Aristotle was Roman? Do you know how stupid your case sounds when you make such basic errors?

1. Aristotle was Greek, not Roman.
2. Aristotle believed the Earth to be sphereical (http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast161/Unit2/measearth.html)

The Scientific Method is a myth.
No, a Roman, flat-Earth believing, scientist named Aristotle is a myth (one you invented). The scientific method is well described.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
JerryL said:
I thought that your point was that it was scientifically esablished.

Contrary to scripture? Please cite the scripture that claims the Earth is not flat.
Please reference Post 140 for clarification.

You think Aristotle was Roman? Do you know how stupid your case sounds when you make such basic errors?

1. Aristotle was Greek, not Roman.
2. Aristotle believed the Earth to be sphereical (http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast161/Unit2/measearth.html)
Did I say Aristotle was Roman? You wanted an example of a Roman scientist, when I already have give you two in the post just before it (to wit: Dipsticus and Imadufus). YOU'RE the one bringing Aristotle into this.

Are you trying to make points, Jerry, or do you just like to type?
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Jerry said:
Please cite the scripture that claims the Earth is not flat.
AV1161 said:
Please reference Post 140 for clarification
AV1161 said:
Hi, SnaleSpace, nice to meet you.

But I love what you just said. It is a beautiful illustration of what I'm talking about.

You say those who once believed the earth was flat.

How did they come to believe that, when Isaiah and David taught otherwise?

I'll tell you. Some rebellious Bibliphobe decided that his "science" and "observations" were more authoritative than Scripture, and started teaching that heresy as 'science'. Then people, CONTRARY TO SCRIPTURE, started believing it.

Then comes someone like Christopher Columbus, who knows better because he believes the Bible, not 'science' ... and basically proves 'science' wrong and the Bible correct.

But what do the 'scientists' do? They just say, "Oops, now we have more evidence" and they readjust their data to ... guess what? ... coincide with the Bible!
I see you assert in 140 that it's contrary to scripture. I asked you for the scripture it's contrary to.

AV1161 said:
Did I say Aristotle was Roman? You wanted an example of a Roman scientist, when I already have give you two in the post just before it (to wit: Dipsticus and Imadufus). YOU'RE the one bringing Aristotle into this.
Aristotle endorsed it [the Earth being flat]. - AV1161 post #176
That said, "Dipsticus and Imadufus" are fabricated names. You are resordting entirely to fiction to argue your position as no reality is congruent with it. Science never showed the Earth to be flat, but it dit show it to be curved.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
JerryL said:
Science never showed the Earth to be flat, but it dit show it to be curved.
Did I say science showed the Earth to be flat? Science can't show the Earth to be flat.

I said 'science' taught the Earth was flat --- contrary to Scripture.

And since you're dying to know where it says the Earth is round in Scripture, and since I love to spoon-feed you guys stuff that you like to reguritate right back at me, here we go.

IT IS HE THAT SITTETH ON THE CIRCLE OF THE EARTH --- Isaiah 40:22

But I'm sure you "Bible experts" will point out where I'm wrong. So I guess I really can't convince you.

And, NO, science didn't show us where it was curved, Nature did. We knew it was curved LONG before any slientist knew it. We taught them it was curved.
 

JerryL

Well-Known Member
Did I say science showed the Earth to be flat? Science can't show the Earth to be flat.
Yes, you did say that in your sarcastic post 176:
Flat Earth was never a scientifically-established position? Yeah right!
Then, when called on it, you said (falsely):
Aristotle endorsed it. (post 178)
I said 'science' taught the Earth was flat --- contrary to Scripture.
You did also claim that. Though science teaches nothing, so you claimed (I assume) that scientists taught it.

I'm sure there are scientists teach Christianity and Islam, but neither are science. I'm not interested in what a scientist thinks, I'm interested in what science establishes. Science never established a flat Earth, and scripture never refutes it.

And since you're dying to know where it says the Earth is round in Scripture, and since I love to spoon-feed you guys stuff that you like to reguritate right back at me, here we go.

IT IS HE THAT SITTETH ON THE CIRCLE OF THE EARTH --- Isaiah 40:22
And the word used there is "circle" (Chuwg 2329) not "ball / sphere" (Duwr 1752)

But I'm sure you "Bible experts" will point out where I'm wrong. So I guess I really can't convince you.
My hebrew lexicon says you are wrong.

And, NO, science didn't show us where it was curved, Nature did. We knew it was curved LONG before any slientist knew it. We taught them it was curved.
Actually Aristotle figured it out by noticing that your vision was farther based on heights, and that the southern constilations rose higher than the northern ones.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
JerryL said:
Yes, you did say that in your sarcastic post 176:
Flat Earth was never a scientifically-established position? Yeah right!


Then, when called on it, you said (falsely):
Aristotle endorsed it. (post 178)


You did also claim that. Though science teaches nothing, so you claimed (I assume) that scientists taught it.


I'm sure there are scientists teach Christianity and Islam, but neither are science. I'm not interested in what a scientist thinks, I'm interested in what science establishes. Science never established a flat Earth, and scripture never refutes it.

And the word used there is "circle" (Chuwg 2329) not "ball / sphere" (Duwr 1752)

My hebrew lexicon says you are wrong.

Actually Aristotle figured it out by noticing that your vision was farther based on heights, and that the southern constilations rose higher than the northern ones.
Whatever --- have a nice day --- :)
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
JerryL said:
LOL You too. Come back when you can at least keep track of what you are saying.
May I join in please? - I have wanted to but have been totally confused about where you guys were, and at what stage?:D
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
michel said:
May I join in please? - I have wanted to but have been totally confused about where you guys were, and at what stage?:D
Go ahead, Michel. Be my guest. I'm already confused, myself, and apparently contradicting myself and what not. That's what I get for "going outside the Book", though.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
AV1611 said:
Go ahead, Michel. Be my guest. I'm already confused, myself, and apparently contradicting myself and what not. That's what I get for "going outside the Book", though.
Well, I'll watch from the sidelines, and chip in, as long as you guys can keep the topic reasonably focussed. Thanks though.:)
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
michel said:
Well, I'll watch from the sidelines, and chip in, as long as you guys can keep the topic reasonably focussed. Thanks though.:)
Well, thank you, but I'm done for now. I can't nail Jello to the wall. I just think Post 140 is a perfect example of how slientists have endorsed/taught/whatever things that are contrary to scripture, then proven wrong by Christians, and "adjusted their data" accordingly.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
AV1611 said:
JerryL said:
But feel free to show me how a flat Earth was scientifically established.
Aristotle endorsed it.
Aristotle (384-322 BC) also proposed a spherical earth on geometric grounds, but backed up his assertion with physical evidence:
  • Ships disappearing over the horizon appear hull-down in the water.
  • Travelers going south see southern constellations rise higher above the horizon.
  • Shadow of the earth on the moon during a lunar eclipse is round.
Aristotle's demonstration was so compelling that a spherical Earth was the central assumption of all subsequent philosophers of the Classical era (up to ~300 AD).

He also used the curved phases of the moon to argue that the Moon must also be a sphere like the Earth.

- see OSU Astonomy 161 Notes
You clearly do not know what you're talking about. By the way, the OSU reference also notes ...

The Four Corners of the Earth
The most common ancient theme is that of a Flat Earth.
  • Homeric: A flat disk surrounded by a world ocean.
  • Inca: Called their land Tehuantinsuyu: "The Four Corners of the Earth"
  • Ancient Egyptian: The sky was a tent canopy stretched between mountains at the four corners of the Earth.
[ibid]
Does this remind you of anything, ...
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in​
And, once again, AV1611, the circle is a 2-dimension object.

For those interested in the topic, a very interesting discussion van be found here, including:

Akkadian Literature

There is an important Babylonian world map that depicts their view of the universe (Cuneiform Texts from Babylonian Tablets in the British Museum 1906, part xxii, pl. 48; BM 92687). Unger describes this world map in his book Babylon (1931; in German). A good English translation of this map is by Wayne Horowitz (1989, 147-165). The earth is seen as a circle within a circle with Babylon at the center. It seems clear that the Babylonians viewed the earth as flat and circular in shape.

Sargon of Akkad is a third millennium king who was said to conquer the whole world in the work The Sargon Geography which states," Anaku and Kaptara, the lands across the upper Sea, Dilmun and Magan, the lands across the Lower Sea, and the lands from sunrise to sunset, the sum total of all the land, which Sargon, the king of the Univer[se] conquered three times" (Horowitz, 1989, 161; Garyson AFO 25, 62:A 41-44).

The Samas Hymn which is written to the Sun-god says, "You climb to the mountains surveying the earth, You suspend from the heavens the circle of the lands" (kip-pat matati (kur.kur) ina qi-rib same’saq-la-a-ta; Lambert 1960, 126-7).

In the Assyrian Royal Inscriptions (Grayson 1972, 105-109) there are many references to the "four quarters" (of the earth). The Royal inscription of Tukulti-Ninurta says:

Tukulti-Ninurta, king of the universe, king of Assyria, strong king, king of the four quarters, chosen of Ashur, vice-regent of Ashur, the king whose deeds are pleasing to the gods of heaven (and) underworld and to whom they allotted the four corners of the earth, (the king whom) they allowed to always exercise rule in the (four) quarters and who conquered all those who did not submit to him (Grayson 1972, 1:105).

The phrase "king of the four quarters" according to Grayson (1972, 1:4) is "the Sumero-Akkadian expression for 'king of the world'." Grayson goes on to say, "The four 'quarters' or 'coasts' are approximately identical with the cardinal points of the compass and are the extremities of the world (which was believed to be a disc) projecting out into the primeval sea (which was believed to surround the world disc)."

The phrase "four corners of the earth" which in Akkadian is kap-pat tu-bu-qa-at erbitti, can literally be translated "the circle of the four corners" (Grayson 1972, 105; CAD K, 397-400). This is a clear reference to the earth being circular. It seems strange that a circle would also have corners, but they meant the extremities in the four cardinal directions.

In Atra-Hasis the third tablet says:

22 Destroy your house, build a boat,
23 Spurn property and save life.
25 The boat which you build
29 Roof it over like the Apsu.
30 So that the sun shall not see inside it
31 Let it be roofed over above and below (Lambert and Millard 1969, 89).

Atra-Hasis is told to build a boat because a flood is coming. The boat is to be built like the world. He is to build a roof above and below to keep the waters of the deep and the waters from heaven out. Atra-Hasis’ world was completely surrounded by water. The firmament held up the heavenly waters, and the earth kept out the waters from the deep. The earth floated in a watery universe.​
Only the willfully ignorant will avoid drawing the obvious conclusions ...
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
O.K well, if I start of by repeating what I said in another post, as a Christian, we'll see where that takes us.


I do not believe in Creation 'per se' - I do believe that God 'dumped' the elements, gases, (whatever) in the universe (Which I suppose he also had to create - but that is an unecessary addition to a dificult enough debate). From that 'mound' of available elements, abiogenesis occurred, and our solar system (amongst others) was created, from which (out of sheer being in the right place at the right time) live evolved, and has done to this day.

Who is going to pick me up on a scientific blunder I have made? (Apart fro the belief in God - which I cannot prove, as we all well know - that I take 'on trust').:)
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Deut. 32.8 said:
You clearly do not know what you're talking about. By the way, the OSU reference also notes ...
Well, it struck me as I was sitting here that I am probably getting Aristotle mixed up with someone else, anyway. I think Aristotle believed in geocentrism, or whatever.

I really don't know, nor do I care. They contradict each other so much anyway it's hard to keep up.

In any event, my point is a very simple one:

The Bible does not teach a flat Earth for today.

A "flat Earth" existed at one time, but it was segmented into 7 continents.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
michel said:
O.K well, if I start of by repeating what I said in another post, as a Christian, we'll see where that takes us.


I do not believe in Creation 'per se' - I do believe that God 'dumped' the elements, gases, (whatever) in the universe (Which I suppose he also had to create - but that is an unecessary addition to a dificult enough debate). From that 'mound' of available elements, abiogenesis occurred, and our solar system (amongst others) was created, from which (out of sheer being in the right place at the right time) live evolved, and has done to this day.

Who is going to pick me up on a scientific blunder I have made? (Apart fro the belief in God - which I cannot prove, as we all well know - that I take 'on trust').:)
Then what is the "Original Sin" to you, if Adam and Eve didn't exist?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
AV1611 said:
In any event, my point is a very simple one:

The Bible does not teach a flat Earth for today.
That was not your point, and to suggest otherwise is as preposterous as it is disingenuous.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
michel said:
The innability of mankind not to sin.:)
So are you saying we were created with the ability to sin (to which I agree), and that itself is Original Sin?
 
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