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Why the Electoral College anyway?

james bond

Well-Known Member
Can this ever be called a democracy?

Right now, it's an oligarchy. We became one circa 2010 where the rich, i.e. the Democrats, conspired to make even more money than they have now and usurped the Democratic Party. These include Mark Zuckerberg, Silicon Valley, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, modern Wall Street bankers, Reed Hastings, Doris Fisher, Wal-Mart family, etc.

Why are so many rich people liberals
http://nikitas3.com/1083/why-are-so-many-rich-people-liberals/

To become a liberal elite, one has to publicly say the right things and put up a lot of money where they want you to put up. You can't just be rich and famous. EDIT: Also Jewish.

Most of these are not the conservative capitalists. Trump is a capitalist, but still hated by the conservative capitalists because he doesn't play ball with them. When I finished college, the economy had already started change towards a service economy.

To become a conservative elite, one has to publicly say the right things and put up a lot of money where they want you to put up. You can't just be rich and Christian.

If you want to start being a member of these elite clubs in either party, then try to join a hedge fund. They'll tell you how much money you have to invest. Usually around $5 million miniumum.

I believe Trump is neither because he does not publicly say the right things and put up a lot of money where they want him to put up.

Oligarchy
http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...chy-with-unlimited-political-bribery-20150731

Yeah, it's JC but he's become wiser, always been a good person and altruist and is still a goodwill ambassador to the US in my book.
 
Last edited:

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Misrepresentation?
No.
The popular vote is not the determining metric for electing the president.
I don't say it's the best system, but it has its merit. And any candidate
who ignores the system does so at her own peril. But I note that in the
primaries, she gamed the system with great skill against her foes.
It is a misrepresentation of the will of the people. Plain and simple. That is how the system works. For good or evil.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
As it stands, the Electoral College disenfranchises millions of citizens. More people live in each of several cities than combined population of a batch of small states. But the urbanites have vastly less representation.
The main result of this disenfranchisement is voter apathy and disengagement. That's the main reason that the elite and the media can have so much influence over the process.
Nobody has given me any advantage gained by the status quo that come close to balancing these disadvantages.
We need the nationalpopularvote.com as soon as possible
Tom
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I also think that the single biggest outcome of an engaged and informed electorate would be the dislodging of the Republocrats death grip on the political process.
Mine is not only a nonpartisan opinion, it is an Antipartisan opinion.
Tom
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If there are three mainstream parties that are fairly close and one weirdo party it could split"

Main-1 25%
Main-2 25%
Main-3 24.9%
Weirdo 25.1%
In the first place, I assumed by “out-there” party, you meant a party or candidate that lacked the support that the “mainstream” party candidates enjoy. In your scenario, the “out-there” or “weirdo” party candidate is the who who gets the most votes. How does the electoral method of electing the President solve that “problem” of one party not getting a majority of the votes?

74.9% of the people could hate the weirdo party but they would win.
Which of the 4 candidates should the House elect in your scenario?

Calling Trump a white supremacist is kind of ridiculous in my opinion.
The KKK supports Trump for some reason. There is obviously no flattering term for his overt expressions of bigotry toward Latinos, Muslims and women. For some reason he grossly misrepresented the unemployment rate of African American youth. For some reason he encouraged his supporters to go monitor the polls at Philadelphia, Chicago, etc.

Gee, I wonder how many African Americans will be in his Cabinet.

How is he even anti-black?
See Shadow Wolf's post.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
14947568_1210269139012580_3771659126421417319_n.jpg


http://www.businessinsider.com/half-of-the-united-states-lives-in-these-counties-2013-9
Notice how many more states are included as holding half the population than the states where the candidates spend their money, time, attention, and promises under the electoral method: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/track-presidential-campaign-ads-2012/

1. Florida - $117.4 million
2. Ohio - $112.1 million
3. Virginia - $85.7 million
4. North Carolina - $56.5 million
5. Colorado - $54.2 million
6. Iowa - $46.6 million
7. Nevada - $38.2 million
8. New Hampshire - $25.3 million
9. Pennsylvania - $19.3 million
10. Wisconsin - $8.1 million
11. Michigan - $8 million
12. Minnesota - $3.2 million
13. New Mexico - $49,000

http://www.ibtimes.com/state-state-breakdown-presidential-campaign-spending-reveals-surprises-782497

PIE_0.png
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
African-American, at least in it's present form isn't a race - few people are unmixed.

Muslim is not a race, it's a religion and culture.

Mexican is not a race, it's a nationality.

Hispanic/Latino isn't a race either, it is a combination of them as well.
None of this changes his overt expressions of bigotry.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
The election after the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact goes into effect will be radically different from all other Presidential elections.

When do you honestly think that will be?

My quick google search shows those (states) that definitely support it are the ones with highest population centers.

In the first place, no person's vote for the winning candidate will be wasted, which will eliminate the primary reason for voter apathy.

I see that as your opinion. We disagree, and our disagreements would be based partially on speculation, and partially on information from this most recent election or past ones. I do think votes would be considered wasted before and after elections under popular vote only. And I do think it has everything to do with population centers (aka cities) and how that is easier to get the vote in at election time.

No person's vote will have unequal weight.

In theory yes. Every vote matters type rhetoric. But in reality, the population centers will decide who wins. Those living in rural areas where people are spread out across much land would be at a disadvantage strategically. Yes, their votes carry equal wait to any individual in any population center, but collectively across the entire land mass that is America, it would show up as all the blue (Dem) votes are highly concentrated - or at least did in this most recent election.

If for some reason all this is too much wording for you, then just skip to next point now. I'll just add to above point that if the Compact you are suggesting goes into effect, then in the next 1 to 3 cycles, I do see that favoring Dems. But after a period, conservatives would catch up, and manifest a population center where if you go live there, you'll benefit from being surrounded by a majority of Republicans and Republican way of life (whatever that means). It would be well known as such, and then come time of elections, that population center would look very red on an overview map of the U.S.

The candidates will not spend all of their time, money, attention and promises on the few battleground states.

It would be most of their time, money and attention on population centers. It would make far more sense to go speak to city A where 3 million Dems reside, than to go speak in rural center B where 20 Dems reside. The whole 'way of life' thing would be turned on it's ear.

Again, skip to next point if all these words are too much for you to wade through. But knowing that you missed what I'm about to say next in my previous post, I'll say it again here. Agricultural industry would take an enormous hit. How that looks exactly, I'm not sure. It would have to still be there for us to survive as a country. But the places where that is happening 'the old fashioned way' is the places where those people (the old fashioned producers) would be at disadvantage, if not America being at disadvantage. Their individual votes would carry equal weight to any individual in population centers. Yet, the land (read as American resources) that they live on, would be neglected to some degree, especially during campaign season (so every 4 years, for 1.5 years, those areas would matter less).

What would matter most to politicians is population centers. The ones that favor their party would strategically matter the most, and the ones that are against them, but likely have some of their voters in those 'enemy' areas, would matter at least a little bit. Those areas would matter more than the many rural areas spread across the entire America. Therefore, once the population center map is in full swing, things would flip big time. I do think there would be cities that are well known to offer a "Progressive way of life" along with others that offer a "Conservative way of life." And the politicians that emerge from those camps would be doing everything they can to bolster the needs and resources for those centers.

A million votes in, say, Arkansas will be as important as a million votes in Florida. And there will not be the possibility of the candidate who didn't win the national popular vote getting to be President.

I won't disagree with this, nor spend much time on it. You're thinking short term with such assertions. In the first couple election cycles, the outcome would likely go to the Dems, while Pubs play catch up with resetting the political map. I think you are ignoring or underplaying how much population centers would matter going forward. I think you are ignoring the impact this would have on rural life (and industry) in America.

Presidential candidates will not try to herd their supporters into "particular areas".

Nope, party leaders and all citizens paying attention to how things work under such a system, will. There will be those who think this is just a fad, just an experiment and not move into population centers for that reason alone. Also not move because crime will likely be far less than in heavily populated areas. Not move because some very much realize how valuable land is, while overwhelming majority (in the population centers) would be focussed on ideological ideas or resources that have less to do with land, and more to do with technological superiority.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
Help me out, can't this still be done now? Hillary did prove that she can put up competitive numbers despite calling in less states than Trump. Theoretically, couldn't a candidate pay particular focus/finances to CA, TX, NY, and FL? That would net them 151 right off the top. Certainly not enough to win, but a heck of a headstart.

These top four states have 151 of 538 electoral votes, or 28%.
In population, these top four states have 33% of the total (7/2015 estimate).

Obviously, the smaller states would have less effect on an election than they do now, without the College.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
No, there are not, but effectively they control their states entire allocation of electoral votes. We run into this in my home state all of the time where the entire state will vote red practically, and the two urban areas counteract the entirety of their vote. These areas basically control their entire state electoral vote, so it's the same problem that the Dem/lib haters disagree with (saying the popular vote should matter more) but taken at the local level. If Hillary Clinton loses 7/8ths of California, Illinois, or New York it's pretty funny that she gets it just because of Chicago/NyC/Bay Area-LA votes/etc. We should pick electors by counties won, if that happened it would be more accurate.

This definitely helps bolster the counter argument I'm making to popular vote only.

Also wish to add that currently we have both, but one that matters most (EC). If we went popular vote only, it would be nice to have both still, just so we could see how it played out, and to see if the 'experiment' is working, or how it is working. But knowing that popular vote would likely last for at least 4 election cycles, I think if there was strong resistance to return to EC, then it would just mean we are increasing population centers. Actually, I currently have zero doubt it would play out that way. I think those in this thread arguing for popular vote as being top deciding factor are neglecting this point or intentionally downplaying. Thus, it comes down to speculating on things currently not known. And even more so comes down to sore losing trying to see if it can strategically weight things the next time around, to favor their party. All out of the control of people in this thread. Best wishes on getting that other thing going, but I'm thinking 50 years after Pubs are destroying Dems in the popular vote, Dems will be crying foul and saying the EC voting strategy makes the most sense, and Pubs are to blame for this popular vote mess that has now been in place for 50 years and is destroying American way of life.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
I thought you were trying to defend the electoral method. It does cause terrible problems--as noted, voter apathy (due to people knowing beforehand to which candidate their state's electoral votes will be cast), vote wasting, and the less popular candidate winning the office.

I live in a state that was painted blue, some might say light blue, before the election. When it went Red this past Tuesday, it was very big news. I had a little apathy going in, but decided to forego that along with my previous position of proud non-voter. So, when it turned from deep blue to light red on election night, I'm sure you can imagine the joy/pride I experienced.

Yet, where the population centers are enormous in America, I think those votes will make the rural areas votes not matter. I've already addressed this extensively in other posts as to why popular vote would be bad. If it changed today to popular, then for next 1 to 3 cycles it probably wouldn't show up all that differently. Eventually (read as less than 50 years), it would change "way of life" in America, where population centers are all that matters, politically speaking.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
>>I'm positive that if it were the other way around that if Trump won majority and not the electoral I would still question a system where majority voice doesn't matter.<<

I'm positive you would not give me props even if the TRUTH hit you in the face, but that's par for the course in politics and religion but kinda accurate

14947568_1210269139012580_3771659126421417319_n.jpg


http://www.businessinsider.com/half-of-the-united-states-lives-in-these-counties-2013-9

In Cali, my vote didn't matter for POTUS (except to give me criping rights). As soon as the polls closed, the 55 electoral votes went to Clinton according to CNN ha ha. A friend of mine, who is anti-Trump, voted for Sanders (write-in) in Missouri and Trump won in no time.
I've seen this picture it is informative. Which is why I asked if it fair to give the electoral to someone winning most the states even so they may not win the popular vote. Seems a decent argument for how the electoral college works and why. Btw I am certain there are missing blue counties but kinda accurate.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
When do you honestly think that will be?
Given the result of the 2016 election, I think there is a good chance of the NPVIC being adopted by the requisite number of states by the 2020 election.

Everyone should pester their state representatives about it: http://www.nationalpopularvote.com

I see that as your opinion. We disagree, and our disagreements would be based partially on speculation, and partially on information from this most recent election or past ones. I do think votes would be considered wasted before and after elections under popular vote only. And I do think it has everything to do with population centers (aka cities) and how that is easier to get the vote in at election time.



In theory yes. Every vote matters type rhetoric. But in reality, the population centers will decide who wins. Those living in rural areas where people are spread out across much land would be at a disadvantage strategically. Yes, their votes carry equal wait to any individual in any population center, but collectively across the entire land mass that is America, it would show up as all the blue (Dem) votes are highly concentrated - or at least did in this most recent election.

If for some reason all this is too much wording for you, then just skip to next point now. I'll just add to above point that if the Compact you are suggesting goes into effect, then in the next 1 to 3 cycles, I do see that favoring Dems. But after a period, conservatives would catch up, and manifest a population center where if you go live there, you'll benefit from being surrounded by a majority of Republicans and Republican way of life (whatever that means). It would be well known as such, and then come time of elections, that population center would look very red on an overview map of the U.S.



It would be most of their time, money and attention on population centers. It would make far more sense to go speak to city A where 3 million Dems reside, than to go speak in rural center B where 20 Dems reside. The whole 'way of life' thing would be turned on it's ear.

Again, skip to next point if all these words are too much for you to wade through. But knowing that you missed what I'm about to say next in my previous post, I'll say it again here. Agricultural industry would take an enormous hit. How that looks exactly, I'm not sure. It would have to still be there for us to survive as a country. But the places where that is happening 'the old fashioned way' is the places where those people (the old fashioned producers) would be at disadvantage, if not America being at disadvantage. Their individual votes would carry equal weight to any individual in population centers. Yet, the land (read as American resources) that they live on, would be neglected to some degree, especially during campaign season (so every 4 years, for 1.5 years, those areas would matter less).

What would matter most to politicians is population centers. The ones that favor their party would strategically matter the most, and the ones that are against them, but likely have some of their voters in those 'enemy' areas, would matter at least a little bit. Those areas would matter more than the many rural areas spread across the entire America. Therefore, once the population center map is in full swing, things would flip big time. I do think there would be cities that are well known to offer a "Progressive way of life" along with others that offer a "Conservative way of life." And the politicians that emerge from those camps would be doing everything they can to bolster the needs and resources for those centers.



I won't disagree with this, nor spend much time on it. You're thinking short term with such assertions. In the first couple election cycles, the outcome would likely go to the Dems, while Pubs play catch up with resetting the political map. I think you are ignoring or underplaying how much population centers would matter going forward. I think you are ignoring the impact this would have on rural life (and industry) in America.



Nope, party leaders and all citizens paying attention to how things work under such a system, will. There will be those who think this is just a fad, just an experiment and not move into population centers for that reason alone. Also not move because crime will likely be far less than in heavily populated areas. Not move because some very much realize how valuable land is, while overwhelming majority (in the population centers) would be focussed on ideological ideas or resources that have less to do with land, and more to do with technological superiority.

This definitely helps bolster the counter argument I'm making to popular vote only.

Also wish to add that currently we have both, but one that matters most (EC). If we went popular vote only, it would be nice to have both still, just so we could see how it played out, and to see if the 'experiment' is working, or how it is working. But knowing that popular vote would likely last for at least 4 election cycles, I think if there was strong resistance to return to EC, then it would just mean we are increasing population centers. Actually, I currently have zero doubt it would play out that way. I think those in this thread arguing for popular vote as being top deciding factor are neglecting this point or intentionally downplaying. Thus, it comes down to speculating on things currently not known. And even more so comes down to sore losing trying to see if it can strategically weight things the next time around, to favor their party. All out of the control of people in this thread. Best wishes on getting that other thing going, but I'm thinking 50 years after Pubs are destroying Dems in the popular vote, Dems will be crying foul and saying the EC voting strategy makes the most sense, and Pubs are to blame for this popular vote mess that has now been in place for 50 years and is destroying American way of life.
You don't have any arguments that the electoral method of electing the President solves any problems or does not cause the problems already noted, namely, voter apathy (in those states where voters already know to which candidate their state's electoral votes will go), vote wasting, unequal vote weight, and, not uncommonly (in 1 out of every 7.5 elections), electing the less popular candidate, do you?
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Given the result of the 2016 election, I think there is a good chance of the NPVIC being adopted by the requisite number of states by the 2020 election.

Everyone should pester their state representatives about it: http://www.nationalpopularvote.com

I will not be. And will be resisting it.

You don't have any arguments that the electoral method of electing the President solves any problems or does not cause the problems already noted

I do, you're just downplaying them or ignoring them. I went thru line by line and addressed what you said, and you chose to claim I have no argument. Sorry, but that's disingenuous on your part at best. I look forward to your favored Act not being in place by 2020.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You don't have any arguments that the electoral method of electing the President solves any problems or does not cause the problems already noted, namely, voter apathy (in those states where voters already know to which candidate their state's electoral votes will go), vote wasting, unequal vote weight, and, not uncommonly (in 1 out of every 7.5 elections), electing the less popular candidate, do you?
I do, you're just downplaying them or ignoring them.
I just couldn't plow through it all. State your arguments succinctly. State the problems that are supposedly solved by the electoral method of electing the President, if you claim any problems are solved. And/or cite the evidence by which to conclude that the problems noted are not caused by the electoral method.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That's on you.
So, you're unable to identify any problems that are supposedly solved by the electoral method of electing the President, and you are unable to cite any evidence by which to conclude that the problems noted are not caused by the electoral method.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
I did plow through it.
I saw no reason to continue the disengagement and resulting disengagement/apathy. That is why we wound up with the candidates we did.
Tom

That's cool. You fight for the Act, and I'll resist it. Again, I look forward to the Act not being implemented by 2020.
 
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