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Why the Hell . . . .

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Far different. When we lose a loved one in this life, there's the hope of seeing them again one day. Not so in your scenario.

You're right. It will be far different. Feelings of mourning and loss will be offset by knowing God gave them a second chance at physical life, while heavily stacking the deck in favor of choosing eternal life, and they stubbornly rejected it anyway.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Loved ones who stubbornly reject God after receiving a "no brainer" opportunity will be somberly mourned for a time. Eternal life will go on. Not much different than life going on after a death of a loved one today.

What no brainer opportunity? Having to accept the "Word of God" based on 100% no brainer (blind) faith in someone's "Revealed" hearsay? It makes no sense that God would give man the unequaled power of reason, and then expect us not to use it in such a critical decision.

Mentioned this before, way back near the beginning of the thread, but another option for afterlife could be...reincarnation. Makes loads more sense to me. There is too much to learn in life, too many lessons to learn, mistakes to be made, wisdom to be gained, to garner in one mere human lifetime. Didn't get things quite right? Still have something to learn? Feel the need to atone for a particular action? Have another go around. As many as needed for the spirit to grow properly.

As time goes on, reincarnation makes more and more sense to me.-

Only one problem with reincarnation, how can we learn from our past or correct our mistakes if we don't remember them or even the individual we once were? "Feelings" of a past life are as unsubstantiated as the other feelings people have that they "communicate" with God. And no one can tell me I'm not listening, or can't hear because I don't have faith or whatever ephemeral quality I was apparently not endowed with. I trust (have faith) in my demonstrated, inherent ability to reason, and have learned to live with the doubt. By all appearances, this is our one shot, make the most of it instead of procrastinating to the next life.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
You're right. It will be far different. Feelings of mourning and loss will be offset by knowing God gave them a second chance at physical life, while heavily stacking the deck in favor of choosing eternal life, and they stubbornly rejected it anyway.

Where in the Bible does it say anyone gets a second chance?
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
What no brainer opportunity? Having to accept the "Word of God" based on 100% no brainer (blind) faith in someone's "Revealed" hearsay? It makes no sense that God would give man the unequaled power of reason, and then expect us not to use it in such a critical decision.





Only one problem with reincarnation, how can we learn from our past or correct our mistakes if we don't remember them or even the individual we once were? "Feelings" of a past life are as unsubstantiated as the other feelings people have that they "communicate" with God. And no one can tell me I'm not listening, or can't hear because I don't have faith or whatever ephemeral quality I was apparently not endowed with. I trust (have faith) in my demonstrated, inherent ability to reason, and have learned to live with the doubt. By all appearances, this is our one shot, make the most of it instead of procrastinating to the next life.
The spirit retains wisdom, not the physical vehicle. Start anew, blank slate for the lifetime, see how you fare this time through. You may not consciously remember past lifetimes or decisions, but they may still influence you. Ever did something because you just "got a feeling" or just "knew" that was what you should do? Couldn't explain it? How about have a phobia that just cannot be attributed to anything in this lifetime? Why on Earth be deathly afraid of water when you've never had one scary water incident in your life? Unexplained fears may well be spirit holdovers from previous lives. At least, those are a few of my takes on the subject.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
The spirit retains wisdom, not the physical vehicle. Start anew, blank slate for the lifetime, see how you fare this time through. You may not consciously remember past lifetimes or decisions, but they may still influence you. Ever did something because you just "got a feeling" or just "knew" that was what you should do? Couldn't explain it? How about have a phobia that just cannot be attributed to anything in this lifetime? Why on Earth be deathly afraid of water when you've never had one scary water incident in your life? Unexplained fears may well be spirit holdovers from previous lives. At least, those are a few of my takes on the subject.

Much more likely to be genetic programming, like fear of snakes. "Feelings", on their own, aren't trustworthy. And just because you can't explain something, that doesn't mean you should lay it off on a past life.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Much more likely to be genetic programming, like fear of snakes. "Feelings", on their own, aren't trustworthy. And just because you can't explain something, that doesn't mean you should lay it off on a past life.
Aren't you writing off something you cant explain as "probably" genetic programming? You dont know either, can't prove it, but it is what makes sense to you so you lean that way. Well, reincarnation makes sense to me, and I have more than just that that makes me lean that way, so it is what I believe.
 
A laissez-faire God would not be manipulative. We can't even tell the difference between that and if there is no God. And I don't understand your last sentence.
True, from Deism's perspective, it would be hard to tell
the difference, and yes, I don't see a lot of manipulation
from God in that scenario.

About the free will part, if we truly had it, then we would
be able to enter the gates of heaven on our own terms,
rather than simply settling for the turn-or-burn/turn-or-
be-annihilated options.

You're right. It will be far different. Feelings of mourning and loss will be offset by knowing God gave them a second chance at physical life, while heavily stacking the deck in favor of choosing eternal life, and they stubbornly rejected it anyway.
Well, it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out.

I think it's a cool perspective, though, that there's a
grace period *after* death for folks to be able to make
an actual, fully-informed decision for or against God. Out
of curiosity, is there a name for that particular view? I
was a Christian Universalist for a time (still hold the
universalistic part even though I hesitate to label myself
"Christian"), and that name refers to the belief that everyone
will be saved in the end, and that any hell there is after
death is temporary, for restorative, rather than merely punitive,
purposes.

Only one problem with reincarnation, how can we learn from our past or correct our mistakes if we don't remember them or even the individual we once were?
Yeah, I think that's a valid concern, and it likely depends
on the reasons for reincarnating.

I got into this awhile back in discussing this with Hindus
(actually, I think it was on this very site—I should go
back and try to find it!) and one claim was that if you eat a
cow, then you run the risk of having to incarnate, as a
cow, as many times as there are hairs on the cow's body.
Something along those lines.

I took exception to that: Firstly, one might as well just
be in hell forever because that's a *lot* of hairs.
Secondly, as a cow, especially after the hundredth
incarnation as one, how the heck am I going to remember
why I'm a cow?! So yes, I think that's a valid question.

My own take on reincarnation is that it isn't driven by
"bad karma" so much as it's the soul's voluntary desire to
come down here and have new experiences. One isn't
necessarily being "taught a lesson" for having done
something wrong previously.

"Feelings" of a past life are as unsubstantiated as the other feelings people have that they "communicate" with God. And no one can tell me I'm not listening, or can't hear because I don't have faith or whatever ephemeral quality I was apparently not endowed with. I trust (have faith) in my demonstrated, inherent ability to reason, and have learned to live with the doubt. By all appearances, this is our one shot, make the most of it instead of procrastinating to the next life.
Yes, this feels very much like the one and only life we
have, although that could be by design. It would
probably get absolutely confusing to have past-life
memories crowding those of our current life.

The only accounts of past-life memories that have made me
wonder have been those—usually kids—who claim to
have been a particular person, or to have lived in a
particular house, and who can recall details about that
existence / location that they had no way of knowing about.
Beyond that, yes it could just be speculative for many people.


-
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
True, from Deism's perspective, it would be hard to tell
the difference, and yes, I don't see a lot of manipulation
from God in that scenario.

About the free will part, if we truly had it, then we would
be able to enter the gates of heaven on our own terms,
rather than simply settling for the turn-or-burn/turn-or-
be-annihilated options.

I see this life as a test to see if we can handle free will or not. Second, hell makes no sense for any God that cares about us, and I don't see why God would have created us if It didn't. And finally I see us as being our own judges, only without the ability to lie, to others or ourselves. Those who are evil will have no choice but to choose oblivion in order to stop the pain of their shame and anguish.

Well, it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Indeed, except the choice was never eternal life, only whether to be moral with others or not. The impetus to be moral is inherent, eternal life is manufactured hearsay.

I think it's a cool perspective, though, that there's a
grace period *after* death for folks to be able to make
an actual, fully-informed decision for or against God.

It would be no different that God interacting in this life, it would negate free will which is the whole point. It's got to be the only reason for creating the universe. God could do anything else instantly.

I got into this awhile back in discussing this with Hindus
(actually, I think it was on this very site—I should go
back and try to find it!) and one claim was that if you eat a
cow, then you run the risk of having to incarnate, as a
cow, as many times as there are hairs on the cow's body.
Something along those lines.

o_O

My own take on reincarnation is that it isn't driven by
"bad karma" so much as it's the soul's voluntary desire to
come down here and have new experiences. One isn't
necessarily being "taught a lesson" for having done
something wrong previously.

Again, the whole point of this is to be a test of our free will. If you know that, it's no longer a test.

The only accounts of past-life memories that have made me
wonder have been those—usually kids—who claim to
have been a particular person, or to have lived in a
particular house, and who can recall details about that
existence / location that they had no way of knowing about.
Beyond that, yes it could just be speculative for many people.-

That would apply to near death/out of body experiences as well, and would be something more that hearsay evidence for them and make me take a serious re-look at them. The catch is if there is actually no way of their knowing through other means. Claims of past lives would be too easy to fake in most cases. Now if someone who "died" on the operating table could relate an event somewhere during that time, and if there was no way information about that event could have been communicated to them, then I'd have to believe. I don't think there've been any such occurrences that have been reported.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
What no brainer opportunity? Having to accept the "Word of God" based on 100% no brainer (blind) faith in someone's "Revealed" hearsay? It makes no sense that God would give man the unequaled power of reason, and then expect us not to use it in such a critical decision.

The one you will receive after you are resurrected back to physical life under paradisaical conditions here on earth.
 
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james2ko

Well-Known Member
Well, it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out. I think it's a cool perspective, though, that there's a
grace period *after* death for folks to be able to make an actual, fully-informed decision for or against God. Out of curiosity, is there a name for that particular view? I
was a Christian Universalist for a time (still hold the universalistic part even though I hesitate to label myself "Christian"), and that name refers to the belief that everyone will be saved in the end, and that any hell there is after death is temporary, for restorative, rather than merely punitive, purposes.

I call the grace period, "The Great White Throne Judgment Period". Haven't coined a term for the entire concept. But it's the view I found the most logical and biblical.
 
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james2ko

Well-Known Member
Where in the Bible does it say anyone gets a second chance?

Notice I said a second chance at "physical life". Different than a second chance at salvation, of which we all get one chance. Take a look at Eze 37. It speaks of a future physical resurrection of Israel--a second chance at physical life--to be with God. If all flesh will see the salvation of God (Luk 3:6), than we can conclude everyone who ever lived will get the same opportunity .
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
Direct quote:

"And where else would you put a soul like that?"

I don't see anything mentioned in that question that would imply what you thought it was.

I believe that wasn't the question was answering. I was answering this one: "What is accomplished by putting people in heaven?"

I am not sure what he is referring to here but perhaps Hell since it is commonly believed only the wicked should go to Hell and therefore the purpose is punishment.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than 1to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Matthew 25:46
“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9
since indeed God considers it just ito repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction . . . .

Mark 9:47-48
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into shell, 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.​



My point is in reference to the scriptural statement that hell was created for Satan and his henchmen, and in as much as Satan is still working his evil (so Christians claim) he must not be in hell; however, people now are.


Regardless, if god isn't getting a kick out of it, what is accomplished by putting people in hell to suffer?


.

I believe "Eternal" does not mean final. There are two meanings: one is never ending but the other is having no time at all. I believe the latter describes Hell. Remember people were raised out of Hell for the final judgement, so how can that be if there is no end.

I believe there is no evidence that anyone is in Hell now.

I believe Hell serves as a good prison for a spirit that can go anywhere. The idea is to keep evil spirits away from the people in the Kingdom of God. It is basically why we put people in prison so they won't be doing harm to society.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I had to watch a video in some kind of drug education class. In it a man with only one hand was telling the story of how he got really high on cocaine and then became afraid he was going to hell, so he got an electric saw and cut his right hand off. I guess I was supposed to learn that cocaine is bad, but instead I learned that taking Jesus literally is bad. I have been high on cocaine many times and never cut my hand off or plucked an eye out. This irrational fear of hell can become a mental illness. Members of other religions besides Christianity don't cut their hand off no matter if they are high on cocaine or not.

I believe that comes from a statement of Jesus that a man would be better off cutting off his hand than going to Hell as a whole person. It doesn't say that cutting off a hand will keep a person out of Hell only that if one had to do that to avoid Hell one would be better off. I think that raises the question as to whether drug users are going to Hell and whether cutting off ones hand effectively eliminates drug use.

I believe a wish to avoid Hell can be a great motivator.
 

Raahim

مكتوب
It's said that hell was originally created as a place for Satan and his angels. (From what a lot of Christians have said, evidently Satan hasn't found his way there yet, as he's still leading us good humans astray.) Fine, but then god decided to use hell as a final resting place for those of us who fail to toe his line.

So what's the deal here? Was hell going to waste with no Satan to burn? Or does god simply get a kick out of making people suffer?

Just what is accomplished by putting people in hell?


.

I don't believe that Hell is was originally place for Satan and sinful people to suffer and burn in hell, but more that it's the place where God is not present and with knowledge that God exists and being unable to be in His presence is surely a good suffering until you pay for your sins. The use of words like fire, abyss, darkness, worms, etc. is just to describe that kind of suffering closely, not exactly. :)
 
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