Why the Hell . . . .

[Ingledsva]

The ' Bosom of Abraham ' - Luke 16:14-31 is an illustration and Not a real happening - Matthew 13:34
Cast down to Tartarus ( tartaro'o ) - 2 Peter 2:4 are the fallen angels - Jude 1:5-6 - who will be destroyed as all the wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; Hebrews 2:14 B
The Bible's Tartarus (tartaro'o) is Not the grave. Jesus appeared to the demons 'after' God resurrected Jesus out of biblical hell (sheol/grave) - 1 Peter 3:18-20
Biblical Tartarus (tartaro'o) is the precursor to their abyssing - Revelation 20:1-3; Revelation 20:7-10,14, followed by their destruction at the end of Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over earth. Jesus destroys Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B - Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8 - so ' second death' is a fitting term for: destruction.

I am well aware that "the Bosom of Abraham" is a colloquialism. I have actually written about it a couple of times this week. The last being in Scriptural Debates - miracle Skeleton - # 15.

According to Tanakh, ALL people went to Sheol, to await Messiah and Final Judgment.

Abraham didn't bring the poor man to himself. This is a teaching story. "In the Bosom of Abraham" - is a colloquialism. They used to recline around tables, - literally reclining against the next person. At banquets the special person's table was often raised - and only the special people reclined with him. Lesser people were at tables further and further away - just as today.

To die and go to the Bosom of Abraham - meant they were righteous, and thus had a place at the main table, - they reclined/slept in peace and comfort.

The "rich man" - sinner - found himself a long way away, - looking up - at Lazarus, - and burning with desire for even a drop of water from that special place.

The sinner has fitful sleep in Sheol, because he knows he has sinned, and no longer has chance to redeem himself. He burns with desire for the other.

Nothing you have said up there changes anything I said.

ALL of them including Tartarus come from Sheol.

The idea is that everyone sleeping in Sheol, - awaits the Messiah - and Final Judgment, - where the evil will cease to exist, as in the smelting fire burning off the dross, leaving only pure Gold.

The word in 1 Peter 3 18-20 is pneuma = souls/spirits - meaning human souls as is made plain by verse 20..

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits/SOULS in prison;

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

So we specifically have Unjust Souls Which are the ones that didn't survive Noah's flood, and before that.

Jesus rising bodily from the grave, and dead people wandering around, were added later by people that didn't understand Sheol.

Jesus was a Jew, - claiming to be the Messiah.

The idea is that He dies, goes to Sheol to preach to the Souls that died before he came to deliver his message. Then he is the first to rise from Sheol. According to the story, HE makes the future "rising" of the others possible.

Also, - Tanakh does not have any angels falling, with Satan, or otherwise. That is later misunderstanding of Hebrew texts too.

In Isaiah 14:4 they mistake a fall from grace by a King of Babylon, - for a fall of Satan.

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[djhwoodwerks]

Jesus destroys Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B - Satan ends up in ' second death ' - Revelation 21:8 - so ' second death' is a fitting term for: destruction.

Rev 20:10 (ESVST) 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Tormented - (STRONG) g0928. βασανίζω basanizō; from 931; to torture:— pain, toil, torment, toss, vex. AV (12)- torment 8, pain 1, toss 1, vex 1, toil 1;


Rev 20:14-15 (ESVST) 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The Bible says they will be "tormented" (torture, pain, torment, vex) DAY and NIGHT FOREVER and EVER" in the lake of fire. And if anyone's name wasn't found in the book of life, they are thrown in the same lake of fire. How does that sound like annihilation?

 

[Ingledsva]

You're not alone in your thinking. However, it's Not some-time-in-the-future message because never before in history has mankind see the fulfillment of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
Even modern technology has made rapid Bible translation possible even in remote areas of earth so people now have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages.
We are seeing the major fulfillment of Luke 21:11, and we are nearing the ' final signal ', so to speak, of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when ' they ' (powers that be ) will be saying, " Peace and Security " as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 before the start of Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over earth, when Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among people of goodwill.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

They have been saying the end is nigh since Jesus' death.

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[Astravalon]

What is ' limited in His options ' about Daniel 2:44
What is ' limited in His options ' about Isaiah 11:3-4
What is ' limited in His options ' about Revelation 19:11; Revelation 19:14-16

To sum it up, "Turn or burn / be annihilated". No healing
for those who need it (the wicked).

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[JoStories]

This in no way excuses those who have never heard the "message" from god's wrath. Romans 1:18-20 only addresses one more category of sinners; those who have heard and suppress the truth. It's no different than when the Bible says in Ephesians 6:4

Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
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and thinking it's alright for mothers provoke their children to anger. Ephesians 6:4 doesn't give mothers the right simply because it only mentions fathers. And Romans 1:18-20 doesn't excuse the uninformed faithless because it only mentions the informed.

In light of

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
which makes no distinction among the faithless;

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life,"
which makes no distinction among those who don't believe.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
which makes no distinction among the faithless.​

it's obvious that all it takes to be excluded from the saved, and therefore sent to hell, is to lack faith, FOR WHATEVER REASON.


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Furthermore, what is 'ungodliness" and "unrighteousness" and which God do we use to apply these terms? Sultan says its his God but what if it is the God of the Hindus or the Buddhists or the Muslims or the Jews? What is ungodliness and unrighteousness to that God? Who is to say its the God portrayed in the Bible?

 

[JoStories]

Romans 1:18-23 isn't talking about people who have only heard the Gospel, but everyone. It isn't saying people have no excuse because they've been preached the Gospel to, but because from the things created and the things around them and innately they know of God and suppress the truth. No one has an excuse, regardless of whether they have heard of the Gospel or not, because God's attributes are plainly seen, that's what the verses are saying.

Let me be very clear...Everyone that you embolden here does NOT include me but let me assure you that I do very strongly believe in God. Just not your idea or version of God. I suppress nothing when it comes to God. Just your version which, IMO, is punitive and ugly with its emphasis on punishment and toeing the line with all the rules. You tap dance from one foot to another and never get beyond shouting how only your God is correct.

 

[JoStories]

Why don't you invite the Almighty over for coffee and just simply ask Him? I doubt you'd understand the answers even if He took you up on it.

You speak as if you are on the same intellectual level of the Almighty all knowing God. Isn't that rather presumptuous of you?

I don't think so. If God is as unapproachable as you make God out to be, what is the point of having this God in the first place? When all goes well, its God that intervened. When it does not, its all Satan's fault. Do you now see how that is what makes the version of God you seem to think is the God of everyone something that many people would have no desire to ever know at all?

 

[JoStories]

The confinement and separation of sin from the rest of the universe is accomplished. Those who end up there choose to, refusing God's love and eternal life with Him, instead choosing to follow Satan.

Ah but if God is omnipotent, which you say God is, then God knows who will deny God and it is God who ends up being culpable for those God sends to hell. Not a very appealing God, IMO. I prefer the God I view God as, one from a Buddhist POV which has me learning from my mistakes and striving to become enlightened by that God. I find your version very unappealing.

 

[Skwim]

Ah but if God is omnipotent, which you say God is, then God knows who will deny God and it is God who ends up being culpable for those God sends to hell. Not a very appealing God, IMO.

I've yet to see a Christian seriously address the implications of god's omnipotence and omniscience. All the response I've seen have been quick digressions into other issues.


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[JoStories]

I agree with you that someone cannot simply or arbitrarily choose to believe. It is important that each person reach a point of finding enough evidence that they have reason to believe. I am of the perspective that the God who created heaven and earth has and does provide such evidence and reasons for anyone who seeks to know.

I think that is a lovely sentiment and would further say, that that is how I found my way to God, albeit through the Buddhist POV. I believe that as long as one has found peace, and if that peace contains God, it should not matter to anyone else. The relationship of God, or even a lack of a relationship, is intensely personal and one cannot understand another's relationship.

 

[JoStories]

Well I think the sincerity of one's search for truth and to know God is between the individual person and God. If God is the Creator of heaven and earth, I believe this Being would be able to provide adequate and perfect evidence and answers which are able reach to the heart and soul of any particular person sincerely seeking and this Being would also know the sincerity of one's heart in receiving or rejecting. I trust the love and justice of God to weight out the right and wrong of each one's heart, sincerity, and conclusion.

Very nicely spoken. Bravo!

 

[JoStories]

What, besides hearsay? I'm not basing the fate of my soul on that. There is none besides hearsay.



But providing any such evidence would negate our free will--the one and only purpose for the universe.



Better to have us seated in the Light of Truth and judge ourselves. The Hearafter, or oblivion.

I would strongly disagree with you about it being hearsay. I would say that my experiences with God are what led me to Buddhism. If you choose to disbelieve in God, however you would like to define that, mores the power to you. My father was an atheist and one of the most caring and loving persons I have ever had the privilege to know. There is nothing wrong with being an atheist. Nor is there any thing wrong with being a believer in God, however the believer defines it.

 

[JoStories]

I've yet to see a Christian seriously address the implications of god's omnipotence and omniscience. All the response I've seen have been quick digressions into other issues.


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Perhaps a new thread that discusses that concept? Just a thought Skwim. I know I would enjoy it as I enjoy most of your posts.

 

[JoStories]

5. He knows in advance which way you will ultimately choose. But you and I don't. Rejecting Christ knowing He gave you a second shot at physical life, completely healed of any and all current physical and mental infirmities, while seeing and experiencing Him in person, without satan's influence, while living in a transformed and much nicer earth with equally nice people, will be your choice--not His.

I could not possibly disagree more. Who are you to state that this is the truth? How in the world do you explain the infirmities of cancer to someone who wants to believe that Christ would physically heal them? If you speak only here of your 'heaven', prove that this is so. Since we know you cannot, your statement is purely supposition and worse, speculation. Such a statement as this insults any and all people who are members here and who may have mental issues or physical ones, or even pretending that they are suffering from this now will lead them to this 'heaven' is an outright lie. It is false hope and is wrong no matter how you view it.

 

[JoStories]

I think a perfect God would ensure the Charles Manson's of the world, who refuse to accept Him even after a fair opportunity to do so in the future, would cease to exist forever. After all, why would God grant eternal life, accompanied with supernatural powers, to someone knowing they will use that power to continue their murderous rampage forever?

Seems to me the imperfection lies in your flawed understanding of God and His plan.

This has to be one of the most sad and disillusioned posts I have ever read here. To imagine such a horrific scenario means, at least to me, that you do not understand a single thing that Christ taught. Not even one.

 

[JoStories]

1. Like other doctrinal positions, a little inductive reasoning goes a long way. Luke states all flesh shall see salvation (Luk 3:6). Isaiah speaks of a time when the veil God placed to blind the masses from accepting Him (Joh 12:40; Mar 4:12; Rom 11:7) will finally be lifted (Isa 25:7).

Rev 20:12-13 describes a physical resurrection. We can conclude it is physical as the dead are described as "small and great" [big and small]. These are the rest of the dead who did not live again until the 1,000 yrs are finished (Rev 20:5). That would include you and the rest of the unbelievers.

Ezekiel also alludes to this mass physical resurrection focusing solely on the nation of Israel (Eze 37:1-11). Christ alludes to this period of judgment/evaluation, when the men of Nineveh and queen of the South will be physically resurrected together with unbelievers of the 1st century and condemn them for not believing the Messiah in person (Mat 12:41-42).

The Ninevites and the queen's realization and subsequent condemnation, will undoubtedly take time. Isaiah suggests this judgment/evaluation period in a transformed earth may last 100 yrs (Isa 65:17,20).

What I highlighted and underlined is, my where I am sitting, part of your overall problem. You are the one doing the inductive reasoning, and no one else. It is YOU who are making these assumptions and not God nor Jesus. YOU and you alone. What I might see with these passages might be totally different and who is to say who is wrong or right? Do I assume you are? Based on your views, I certainly hope not.

 

[JoStories]

1. Opinions are nice, but can you prove it from the scriptures?

Can you? Of course not because it is your views of what these scriptures state and only yours. I might see and certainly do see, what is written in a completely different way. Again, who is to say who is wrong or right? What can be 'proven' from scripture at all? It is all supposition. One reads the words and this one sees it that way and another this way. Can you seriously state that your view is correct?

 

[JoStories]

Precisely. It is not His priority, at least not at this time. Currently, He is only working to save the future world leaders and those teachers and counselors who will help Him run the planet. A super world government, if you will. But there will come a time when saving unbelievers and those who never heard of Jesus will become His priority.

Really? You got this from God God's self? Because as far as I can see, its your belief and nothing more. I wonder what you say to other peoples of other faiths? Do you tell all Hindus they are going to hell? What about Jews or Muslims or Buddhists or any other of the myriad faiths out there?

 

[JoStories]

I believe the context reveals Paul is referring to former Christians who were shown, and once knew, the plain truth of God and rejected it. They are without excuse. Unbelievers whose mind have been blinded to the truth, have an excuse (Mar 4:12; Joh 12:40).

The operative word here being believe.

 

[JoStories]

As time goes on, reincarnation makes more and more sense to me.


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IMO, it is the only thing that makes sense. God wants us to be enlightened. The only way one can do that is to experience the lessons in this life and other lives that God wants us to learn. There are simply far too many for one lifetime. That is how I view it and how God has led me to understand it.