Why the Hell . . . .

[james2ko]

It makes no difference how you dance around ''the bible's four terms that are translated "hell." What I'm talking about is the place described in the Bible as....Now, if you can't call it hell then call it something else. It's name doesn't really matter. What does matter is that this is where people who haven't toed god's line end up. As for me, I'm calling it "hell."

1. I'm a terrible dancer so I assure you dancing is not what I am doing

. The translated term --hell-- entails three different places. Just ensuring we were on the same page.

From these two passages I don't see any indication of anyone ceasing to exist.

2. Not explicitly, but collectively with other scriptures I posted indicate a resurrection to a second chance at physical life, but your first unhardened, unblinded opportunity at salvation for you and those like you (Joh 12:40; 2 Co 3:14; Rom 9:18).

It just refers to those not making it into god's good graces, so to speak. And, according to Matthew 25:46 (“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”) their sorry fate will last forever.

3. But only after their fair, unveiled period of time (perhaps 100 yrs) to accept or reject Him. If a conscious, human being is resurrected to physical life and after a period of time to experience Christ in person, decides to reject Him, they leave Him no choice but to be thrown into a lake of fire (gehenna), which is called the "second" death.

Just like the "first" death, this would indicate a cessation of physical life, but this time with no future resurrection, which in essence equates to a cessation of life forever.

So any such desire or lack of it simply doesn't make sense. It's like desiring or not desiring the sun to rise in the morning.

4. Makes perfect sense once we look under the hood of the term. The Greek term for desire in 1 Ti 2:4 [thelo-G2309] is a Hebraism for "taking delight in". In other words, God would be delighted if everyone chose to ultimately accept Him, but He knows this will not be the case, hence the existence of the lake of fire.

As far as god not wanting it, this is silly. He set up hell, made the rules, and, being omniscient, knew how it would all play out.

5. He knows in advance which way you will ultimately choose. But you and I don't. Rejecting Christ knowing He gave you a second shot at physical life, completely healed of any and all current physical and mental infirmities, while seeing and experiencing Him in person, without satan's influence, while living in a transformed and much nicer earth with equally nice people, will be your choice--not His.

Matthew 13:50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

6. Another Hebraism expressing fear and regret--not remorse, before being tossed in the fire.

Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

7. A metaphor pointing to Gehenna. As I alluded to previously, Gehenna, or the valley of Hinnom, is located outside Jerusalem. Trash, refuse, animal carcasses, and even the dead bodies of despised criminals were thrown there to be destroyed by the fires that burned perpetually on the valley floor.

Revelation 21:8 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

8. This is undoubtedly the lake of fire--a type of gehenna. Those who choose to continue in those behaviors (not an exhaustive list) even after experiencing the fantastic events from point 5, have undoubtedly proven they cannot be entrusted with immense spiritual power. Their physical bodies will be thrown in the lake of fire and they will simply cease to exist.

 

[HeironymusJones]

It's said that hell was originally created as a place for Satan and his angels. (From what a lot of Christians have said, evidently Satan hasn't found his way there yet, as he's still leading us good humans astray.) Fine, but then god decided to use hell as a final resting place for those of us who fail to toe his line.

So what's the deal here? Was hell going to waste with no Satan to burn? Or does god simply get a kick out of making people suffer?

Just what is accomplished by putting people in hell?


.

Adherents of the Abrahamic faiths don't seem to get that their scriptures' entire concept of Hell is proof-positive the
God they worship is imperfect; fatally flawed. Otherwise why create a place for all one's rejects? Wouldn't God,
inherently, be incapable of imperfection? One but has to gaze upon His most treasured creation -- Man -- to note just
how exiguous their God truly is.

 

[jeager106]

Adherents of the Abrahamic faiths don't seem to get that their scriptures' entire concept of Hell is proof-positive the
God they worship is imperfect; fatally flawed. Otherwise why create a place for all one's rejects? Wouldn't God,
inherently, be incapable of imperfection? One but has to gaze upon His most treasured creation -- Man -- to note just
how exiguous their God truly is.

AGREED! The Trouble with MOST Abrahamic faiths is that they have been filled
with false information for so that that the lie is now the gospel truth. (pun intended)
If believers in "hell" would just realize Jesus preached LOVE one another; that His
Heavenly Father was loving and forgiving and would NEVER create a place of eternal torment.
Cheesh! Don't Christians THINK!
Remember! Sitting in church does not make one a Christian any more that sitting
in a chicken coop makes one a chicken.
(like that analogy don'cha?)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Jesu disciple

For some reason, I cant "reply" to you. You talked about my "not knowing the nature of scripture".

Thats the problem right there. Yall keep missing I was christian. I dont believe that a salvation be void anymlre than I believe I had no connection and personal relationship with a friend I walked away from. Hence, the naturw of scripture became a part of me when I took the sacraments and devoted my life to christ.

So, that view is completely inaccurate. Before I went into the Church, I "did not" offer scriptural advice. Now that I have already studied the bible personally, yes. I can.

My personal confliction was not my quoting scripture. I dont care if anyone doesnt want me to quote it on the basis that I dont follow christ. My friend does not see that in me and I find that real unconditional love.

The purpose of my other OP before it was deband for a serious question cut short, I did not know what scripture to offer my "new friend" because like I said she takes certain thinga too personally. So, finding the right context for Her is difficult.

I am used to Catholics who most I know are very open to believing that once one takes the sacraments they believe they are with christ. I respect that. It makes communication more intement and unconditional love is present.

I dont understand why this is missing in many fundemental christians. They dont define christianity. Definitely not scripture.

So my previous question was what scripture to quote to my new friend who is offended by anything outside scripture although related to god.

Im glad I recieved posts and not everyone feels the same way as you and many people. It makes me feel loved my people and by my friends who see me as a child of christ not an enemy of him.

Not all friends who part are enemies with each other.

Why doesnt a protestant "understand" that?

 

[james2ko]

Adherents of the Abrahamic faiths don't seem to get that their scriptures' entire concept of Hell is proof-positive the God they worship is imperfect; fatally flawed. Otherwise why create a place for all one's rejects? Wouldn't God, inherently, be incapable of imperfection? One but has to gaze upon His most treasured creation -- Man -- to note just how exiguous their God truly is.

I think a perfect God would ensure the Charles Manson's of the world, who refuse to accept Him even after a fair opportunity to do so in the future, would cease to exist forever. After all, why would God grant eternal life, accompanied with supernatural powers, to someone knowing they will use that power to continue their murderous rampage forever?

Seems to me the imperfection lies in your flawed understanding of God and His plan.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Adherents of the Abrahamic faiths don't seem to get that their scriptures' entire concept of Hell is proof-positive the
God they worship is imperfect; fatally flawed. Otherwise why create a place for all one's rejects? Wouldn't God,
inherently, be incapable of imperfection? One but has to gaze upon His most treasured creation -- Man -- to note just
how exiguous their God truly is.

Not just the Abrahamic faith's, but ALL revealed religions are flawed, because all revelations is either non-transmittable as anything other than hearsay, or (more likely), it's all manufactured in the first place, with hell being the invention of sadists.

God, if It exists, isn't fatally flawed. It created the universe specifically to spawn self-aware creatures with free will. That some of us use that free will to do evil, is the choice of those that do so, not God's choice. They flunk the test, at least if they don't repent and change their attitude. If you want to know God, look to the one which wasn't invented by men with all the accompanying revelations.

 

[Skwim]

I think a perfect God would ensure the Charles Manson's of the world, who refuse to accept Him even after a fair opportunity to do so in the future, would cease to exist forever. After all, why would God grant eternal life, accompanied with supernatural powers, to someone knowing they will use that power to continue their murderous rampage forever?

Seems to me the imperfection lies in your flawed understanding of God and His plan.

But the Charles Mansons of the world are granted eternal life---in hell---and supernatural powers---the ability to exist and suffer supernaturally. (Hell is part of the supernatural, just as heaven is.)


.

 

[Skwim]

3. But only after their fair, unveiled period of time (perhaps 100 yrs) to accept or reject Him.

Chapter and verse please.

4. Makes perfect sense once we look under the hood of the term. The Greek term for desire in 1 Ti 2:4 [thelo-G2309] is a Hebraism for "taking delight in". In other words, God would be delighted if everyone chose to ultimately accept Him, but He knows this will not be the case, hence the existence of the lake of fire.

So why didn't you use "taking delight in" instead of "desire" when you said "God does not desire for anyone to cease to exist and wants all to get to know and accept Him"? We're not suppose to second guess every word you use are we?

5. He knows in advance which way you will ultimately choose. But you and I don't. Rejecting Christ knowing He gave you a second shot at physical life, completely healed of any and all current physical and mental infirmities, while seeing and experiencing Him in person, without satan's influence, while living in a transformed and much nicer earth with equally nice people, will be your choice--not His.

So even before we're conceived god knows whether or not we'll end up in hell or not. Yet he lets the conception go ahead. How nice of him.

GOD: "My what a beautiful baby boy destined for hell you just had. Congratulations to the new mother and father."

6. Another Hebraism expressing fear and regret--not remorse, before being tossed in the fire.

7. A metaphor pointing to Gehenna. As I alluded to previously, Gehenna, or the valley of Hinnom, is located outside Jerusalem. Trash, refuse, animal carcasses, and even the dead bodies of despised criminals were thrown there to be destroyed by the fires that burned perpetually on the valley floor.

Geese! not more "Look at the original, this is what it really means" excuses. This lame, time-worn justification for troublesome elements in the Bible burned to the ground long ago. The Bible says what it does because that's what the translators wanted the reader to understand.


.

 

[Astravalon]

I think a perfect God would ensure the Charles Manson's of the world, who refuse to accept Him even after a fair opportunity to do so in the future, would cease to exist forever. After all, why would God grant eternal life, accompanied with supernatural powers, to someone knowing they will use that power to continue their murderous rampage forever?

While I think the annihilation theory is far more humane
than the eternal torment theory, I still think that even
the most hardened soul can't hold out forever. God can
do better than to simply erase them. He can rehabilitate
them.

It created the universe specifically to spawn self-aware creatures with free will. That some of us use that free will to do evil, is the choice of those that do so, not God's choice.

Well, technically, yes it was God's choice. He created
beings and, if there is such a thing as free will, gave
them that, knowing in advance how they would use that
will. He would therefore be responsible for the outcomes.


-

 

[james2ko]

Chapter and verse please.

1. Like other doctrinal positions, a little inductive reasoning goes a long way. Luke states all flesh shall see salvation (Luk 3:6). Isaiah speaks of a time when the veil God placed to blind the masses from accepting Him (Joh 12:40; Mar 4:12; Rom 11:7) will finally be lifted (Isa 25:7).

Rev 20:12-13 describes a physical resurrection. We can conclude it is physical as the dead are described as "small and great" [big and small]. These are the rest of the dead who did not live again until the 1,000 yrs are finished (Rev 20:5). That would include you and the rest of the unbelievers.

Ezekiel also alludes to this mass physical resurrection focusing solely on the nation of Israel (Eze 37:1-11). Christ alludes to this period of judgment/evaluation, when the men of Nineveh and queen of the South will be physically resurrected together with unbelievers of the 1st century and condemn them for not believing the Messiah in person (Mat 12:41-42).

The Ninevites and the queen's realization and subsequent condemnation, will undoubtedly take time. Isaiah suggests this judgment/evaluation period in a transformed earth may last 100 yrs (Isa 65:17,20).

So why didn't you use "taking delight in" instead of "desire" when you said "God does not desire for anyone to cease to exist and wants all to get to know and accept Him"? Are we suppose to second guess every word you use?

2. I simply quoted an English translation. As is often the case, the true meaning of the Greek term is lost in the English.

So even before we're conceived god knows whether or not we'll end up in hell or not. Yet he lets the conception go ahead. How nice of him.

3. It is very nice of Him to even give anyone the opportunity to ultimately live forever.

Geese! not more "Look at the original, this is what it really means" excuses.

This lame, time-worn justification for troublesome elements in the Bible burned to the ground long ago. The Bible says what it does because that's what the translators wanted the reader to understand.

4. It was the original languages that were inspired, not the translations. That is why we have to, more often than not, look at the original to determine what the authors wanted the reader to understand.

But the Charles Mansons of the world are granted eternal life---in hell---and supernatural powers---the ability to exist and suffer supernaturally. (Hell is part of the supernatural, just as heaven is.)

5. It seems you are commingling two Greek terms--gehenna and tartaroo . Remember, the term translated "hell" are three different places. Tartaroo, a.k.a the abyss/deep, is a supernatural "hell" beneath the earth where demon--not human--spirits are confined (2 Pe 2:4;Luk 8:31).

And you are correct, it is just as supernatural as the heaven above the earth. Gehenna is where unrepentant, physical human beings will be cast and cease to exist, only after rejecting their fair shot at salvation, occurring during the 100 yr judgment period commencing sometime after the 1,000 yrs and satan is put away (Rev 20:5; 10).

 

[james2ko]

While I think the annihilation theory is far more humane than the eternal torment theory, I still think that even the most hardened soul can't hold out forever. God can do better than to simply erase them. He can rehabilitate them.

God will physically resurrect everyone who ever lived that did not get a fair opportunity to know His son, under paradisaical circumstances (Isa 35:1-2;Isa 65:25), void of any physical or mental defects (Isa 35:5-6). They will be assigned a teacher/counselor to help them make right choices (Isa 30:20-21). That is where God's rehabilitation will cease.

The decision to accept or reject Him will ultimately fall on each individual. God will not choose salvation for them. If so, He would be accused by those who are not interested in what God has to offer as a manipulative, meddling puppeteer.

 

[Astravalon]

God will physically resurrect everyone who ever lived that did not get a fair opportunity to know His son, under paradisaical circumstances (Isa 35:1-2;Isa 65:25), void of any physical or mental defects (Isa 35:5-6). They will be assigned a teacher/counselor to help them make right choices (Isa 30:20-21).

That's an interesting concept. Definitely better than the
traditional idea of physical death being the deadline.

That is where God's rehabilitation will cease.

The decision to accept or reject Him will ultimately fall on each individual. God will not choose salvation for them. If so, He would be accused by those who are not interested in what God has to offer as a manipulative, meddling puppeteer.

On the surface this sounds really accommodating of Him,
however, ultimately there would still be the potential for
Him to be seen as manipulative and meddling, given that
the only other alternative being offered is annihilation.

And again, He would've known before even creating those
people that they would ultimately opt for annihilation, so
basically He's brought them into existence for no
particular reason other than to just snuff them out again.
Seems a pointless endeavor, imo.


-

 

[Skwim]

1. Like other doctrinal positions, a little inductive reasoning goes a long way. Luke states all flesh shall see salvation (Luk 3:6). Isaiah speaks of a time when the veil God placed to blind the masses from accepting Him (Joh 12:40; Mar 4:12; Rom 11:7) will finally be lifted (Isa 25:7).

Rev 20:12-13 describes a physical resurrection. We can conclude it is physical as the dead are described as "small and great" [big and small]. These are the rest of the dead who did not live again until the 1,000 yrs are finished (Rev 20:5). That would include you and the rest of the unbelievers.

Ezekiel also alludes to this mass physical resurrection focusing solely on the nation of Israel (Eze 37:1-11). Christ alludes to this period of judgment/evaluation, when the men of Nineveh and queen of the South will be physically resurrected together with unbelievers of the 1st century and condemn them for not believing the Messiah in person (Mat 12:41-42).

The Ninevites and the queen's realization and subsequent condemnation, will undoubtedly take time. Isaiah suggests this judgment/evaluation period in a transformed earth may last 100 yrs (Isa 65:17,20).

More like whole a lot of inductive presumption.

2. I simply quoted an English translation. As is often the case, the true meaning of the Greek term is lost in the English.

English translation of what? Certainly not in the 2 Peter 3:9 or 1 Timothy 2:4. verses I came across.

3. It is very nice of Him to even give anyone the opportunity to ultimately live forever.

What opportunity? Living forever in hell is a nice opportunity one should be thanking god for? After all, god knew from the time of the poor guys conception that he would end up in hell. If asked about his non-opportunity while serving his eternal sentence in hell, I'm sure he would say, "Thanks but no thanks.I would have preferred never being born."

4. It was the original languages that were inspired, not the translations. That is why we have to, more often than not, look at the original to determine what the authors wanted the reader to understand.

And you think you have more knowledge about and insights into the original manuscripts than all the scholars that put the various translations together?

5. You are comingling two Greek terms--gehenna and tartaroo . Remember I stated the term translated "hell" are three different places. Tartaroo, a.k.a the abyss/deep, is a supernatural "hell" beneath the earth where demon--not human--spirits are confined.

And remember I said "It makes no difference how you dance around ''the bible's four terms that are translated "hell." What I'm talking about is the place described in the Bible as....Now, if you can't call it hell then call it something else. It's name doesn't really matter. What does matter is that this is where people who haven't toed god's line end up. As for me, I'm calling it "hell."

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

While I think the annihilation theory is far more humane
than the eternal torment theory, I still think that even
the most hardened soul can't hold out forever. God can
do better than to simply erase them. He can rehabilitate
them.

The whole point of this test, if you will, is to see what each soul does with free will when it is completely free from God's influence. God turning over the bad boys to the "angels" for rehab after their "fall", defeats the whole purpose.

Well, technically, yes it was God's choice. He created
beings and, if there is such a thing as free will, gave
them that, knowing in advance how they would use that
will. He would therefore be responsible for the outcomes.-

When we are endowed with free will, that automatically means God wouldn't have precognition of our actions. It God did, it wouldn't be free will. The hardest part of free will is understanding why we have it, and why it was given to us in the fist place. God's gift of free will was given precisely so that God wouldn't know what our choices would be. Otherwise the whole idea would be pointless. God can't stop a tsunami because to do so would negate our free will.

 

[james2ko]

More like whole a lot of inductive presumption.

1. Opinions are nice, but can you prove it from the scriptures?

English translation of what? Certainly not in the 2 Peter 3:9 or 1 Timothy 2:4. verses I came across.

2. Of 1 Ti 2:4. Here is Strong's definition of the Greek term for "desire", supporting my interpretation of taking delight in:

Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and ἐθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]).​

What opportunity? Living forever in hell is a nice opportunity one should be thanking god for? After all, god knew from the time of the poor schlubs conception that he would end up in hell. If asked about his non-opportunity while serving his eternal sentence in hell, I'm sure he would say thanks but no thanks.

3. No such concept in scripture. No human being will "live" forever in any of the four hell's of the bible.

And you think you have more knowledge about and insights into the original manuscripts than all the scholars that put the various translations together?

4. No different than your demonstration of how you think you know God and His plan better than they do.

And remember I said "

It makes no difference how you dance around ''the bible's four terms that are translated "hell." What I'm talking about is the place described in the Bible as....Now, if you can't call it hell then call it something else. It's name doesn't really matter. What does matter is that this is where people who haven't toed god's line end up. As for me, I'm calling it "hell."

5. Hence your gross misunderstanding of God and His plan for humanity.

 

[james2ko]

On the surface this sounds really accommodating of Him, however, ultimately there would still be the potential for Him to be seen as manipulative and meddling, given that the only other alternative being offered is annihilation.

Annihilation is not the only other alternative being offered. The other alternative is eternal life.

And again, He would've known before even creating those people that they would ultimately opt for annihilation, so basically He's brought them into existence for no particular reason other than to just snuff them out again.Seems a pointless endeavor, imo.

Are you glad you were born or do you wish you never were?

 

[Astravalon]

The whole point of this test, if you will, is to see what each soul does with free will when it is completely free from God's influence. God turning over the bad boys to the "angels" for rehab after their "fall", defeats the whole purpose.

I'm not sure there's any such thing as being completely
free of the influence of an all-pervading entity. But then,
I'm panentheistic in my outlook, so that's probably why.

When we are endowed with free will, that automatically means God wouldn't have precognition of our actions. It God did, it wouldn't be free will. The hardest part of free will is understanding why we have it, and why it was given to us in the fist place. God's gift of free will was given precisely so that God wouldn't know what our choices would be. Otherwise the whole idea would be pointless. God can't stop a tsunami because to do so would negate our free will.

Again, all this assumes there's such a thing as human
free will. I'm not sold on that. And even then, I never
really got the whole perceived conflict between that
and God's omniscience. I have to ponder that further,
I suppose.

I also don't believe that there's anything God doesn't
know, given that I see Him as omniscient.

We're apparently discussing two different gods, here.
Or, more precisely, a God, and a demigod.

Annihilation is not the only other alternative being offered. The other alternative is eternal life.

There are only two options supposedly being given. That's going
to come across as more manipulative and meddling than not.

Are you glad you were born or do you wish you never were?

I've enjoyed my current incarnation quite a bit, all things
considered, though I don't believe my existence is contingent
upon incarnation. I'm not necessarily a temporary being.
I am glad I exist, though, either with or without a body.


-

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I'm not sure there's any such thing as being completely
free of the influence of an all-pervading entity. But then,
I'm panentheistic in my outlook, so that's probably why.

Pandeism or panendeism are no different that plain deism in this respect. In all cases God in laissez-faire. And you gotta admit that if an all-pervading (omnipresent) entity is also omnipotent and omniscient, that it would sort of make sense that such a God could find a way to make Itself unapparent. And the Big Bang fits the bill as just such a perfect information firewall.

Again, all this assumes there's such a thing as human
free will. I'm not sold on that. And even then, I never
really got the whole perceived conflict between that
and God's omniscience. I have to ponder that further,
I suppose.

It appears that free will is (was) the sole purpose for creating the universe. God could do anything else instantly. And this puts that information firewall 13 billion years away as well. And the perfect absence of evidence for or against God I tend to think as evidence for God. How could the perfect absence of evidence that the universe came to be spontaneously have happened except by design. But then I have to remind myself that the absence of evidence, is not evidence.

I also don't believe that there's anything God doesn't
know, given that I see Him as omniscient.

Would God not have the power to do that by giving us free-will? How else can God ever be delighted or disappointed or surprised? Imagine if you knew what everybody was going to do for forever. Free will would benefit both God and us in that it enables our moral and creative soul.

We're apparently discussing two different gods, here.
Or, more precisely, a God, and a demigod.

This is God's offering to us, if you will, for God's and our benefit, since it and the universe could be removed in an instant.

There are only two options supposedly being given. That's going
to come across as more manipulative and meddling than not.

Yeah, oblivion or life, and the choice is ours. How is that manipulative since none of us ever even have any evidence that God exists?

 

[james2ko]

There are only two options supposedly being given.

Yes, the Being who can remember the names of 300+ sextillion stars, and knows how many hairs you have on your head (Ps 147:4; Mat 10:30), has ordained only two alternatives for you to choose from--live forever or cease to exist.

That's going to come across as more manipulative and meddling than not.

Neither characterizes the establishment of the two alternatives for your destiny, which you get to choose.

I've enjoyed my current incarnation quite a bit, all things considered, though I don't believe my existence is contingent upon incarnation. I'm not necessarily a temporary being. I am glad I exist, though, either with or without a body.

All things considered, the fact you're happy indicates God allowing you to exist, in spite of His knowledge of your fate, was not such a pointless endeavor after all.

 

[viole]

I think a perfect God would ensure the Charles Manson's of the world, who refuse to accept Him even after a fair opportunity to do so in the future, would cease to exist forever. After all, why would God grant eternal life, accompanied with supernatural powers, to someone knowing they will use that power to continue their murderous rampage forever?

Seems to me the imperfection lies in your flawed understanding of God and His plan.

Can someone perform murderous rampage of souls living forever? Do they immediately respawn when killed?

Ciao

- viole