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Why the law of Moses prohibits anal sex

muichimotsu

Holding All and None
Keep in mind gay and bisexual men make up less then 2% of the US population:
  • In 2010, gay and bisexual men accounted for 63% of estimated new HIV infections in the United States and 78% of infections among all newly infected men. From 2008 to 2010, new HIV infections increased 22% among young (aged 13-24) gay and bisexual men and 12% among gay and bisexual men overall.
  • Among all gay and bisexual men, white gay and bisexual men accounted for 11,200 (38%) estimated new HIV infections in 2010. The largest number of new infections among white gay and bisexual men (3,300; 29%) occurred in those aged 25 to 34.
  • Among all gay and bisexual men, black/African American gay and bisexual men accounted for 10,600 (36%) estimated new HIV infections in 2010. The largest number of new infections among black/African American gay and bisexual men (4,800; 45%) occurred in those aged 13 to 24. From 2008 to 2010 new infections increased 20% among young black/African American gay and bisexual men aged 13 to 24.
  • Among all gay and bisexual men, Hispanic/Latino gay and bisexual men accounted for 6,700 (22%) estimated new HIV infections in 2010. The largest number of new infections among Hispanic/Latino gay and bisexual men (3,300; 39%) occurred in those aged 25 to 34.
HIV and AIDS Diagnoses
  • In 2013, in the United States, gay and bisexual men accounted for 81% (30,689) of the 37,887 estimated HIV diagnoses among all males aged 13 years and older and 65% of the 47,352 estimated diagnoses among all persons receiving an HIV diagnosis that year.
  • In 2013, gay and bisexual men accounted for 55% of the estimated number of persons diagnosed with AIDS among all adults and adolescents in the United States. Of the estimated 14,611 gay and bisexual men diagnosed with AIDS, 40% were blacks/African Americans; 32% were whites; and 23% were Hispanics/Latinos.
Gay and Bisexual Men | HIV by Group | HIV/AIDS | CDC


All this is the same drek I've heard from anti gay apologists and it still doesn't follow to gay sex being wrong or even necessarily dangerous, especially since the numbers are technically still limited. You can use statistics and percentages to inflate the perception of something being more increased than it actually is. And even with specific numbers, we're talking about a vast range of age and socioeconomic class, both of which are major factors being ignored in terms of an etiology of HIV infections.

Anal sex is not the sole causative factor in itself, at most it's a correlation and then embellished to guilt by association. Having unprotected anal sex is the primary issue, not merely having it, especially if you're in a committed relationship to begin with. But it's being promiscuous that's the issue and you can't just claim that more gay men are promiscuous regardless of age, simply by virtue of being gay. There are other factors to consider that are far more compelling even with actual studies.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Then he is fortunate. CDC statistics above prove the dangers of anal sex and how easily STD's spread through this manner of sex. It can't be denied. You are also making a silly argument about anal sex not being inherently dangerous. I have already proven above that top medical experts disagree. For more see webmd.
Then how is it that before HIV/AIDS men were having anal sex for centuries and there was no untoward problems? Are you really not seeing this?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Statistics show that vast bulk of STD's are spread via anal sex. This is the root of the issue. Many other people now have STD's and can potentially spread them through vaginal sex as well. This doesn't mean that vaginal sex was the true problem here.

The inconvenient truth remains:

If we all stopped sleeping around and we had only vaginal intercourse we would have almost NO STD'S AT ALL!! Only those predisposed at birth would still be potential carriers.
If everybody only had vaginal intercourse we'd still have STDs.
The fact still remains that STDs are spread via plain old heterosexual intercourse.

No doubt that safe sex greatly reduces the spread of STDs. That seems to be the real core issue here.
 
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dust1n

Zindīq
I was referring to deadly STD's when I said that. Goodness.

What other deadly STD are you referring to other than HIV? Either way, it's still not true. Even if anal sex was eliminated from the face of the earth, the statement "only those predisposed at birth would still be potential carriers" would still be false.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Source please.
Is Anal Sex Safe?
There are a number of health risks with anal sex, and anal intercourse is the riskiest form of sexual activity for several reasons, including the following:

  • The anus lacks the natural lubrication the vagina has. Penetration can tear the tissue inside the anus, allowing bacteria and viruses to enter the bloodstream. This can result in the spread of sexually transmitted infections including HIV. Studies have suggested that anal exposure to HIV poses 30 times more risk for the receptive partner than vaginal exposure. Exposure to the human papillomavirus (HPV) may also lead to the development of anal warts and anal cancer. Using lubricants can help some, but doesn't completely prevent tearing.
  • The tissue inside the anus is not as well protected as the skinoutside the anus. Our external tissue has layers of dead cells that serve as a protective barrier against infection. The tissue inside the anus does not have this natural protection, which leaves it vulnerable to tearing and the spread of infection.
  • The anus was designed to hold in feces. The anus is surrounded with a ring-like muscle, called the anal sphincter, which tightens after we defecate. When the muscle is tight, anal penetration can be painful and difficult. Repetitive anal sex may lead to weakening of the anal sphincter, making it difficult to hold in feces until you can get to the toilet. However, Kegel exercises to strengthen the sphincter may help prevent this problem or correct it.
  • The anus is full of bacteria. Even if both partners do not have a sexually-transmitted infection or disease, bacteria normally in the anus can potentially infect the giving partner. Practicing vaginal sex after anal sex can also lead to vaginal and urinary tract infections.
Anal Sex Safety and Health Concerns

In 2012, men who have sex with men (MSM) accounted for 75% of primary and secondary syphilis cases in the United States. MSM often are diagnosed with other STDs, including chlamydia and gonorrhea infections.

CDC - Sexually Transmitted Diseases - Gay and Bisexual Men's Health
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
What other deadly STD are you referring to other than HIV? Either way, it's still not true. Even if anal sex was eliminated from the face of the earth, the statement "only those predisposed at birth would still be potential carriers" would still be false.
How so?
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Unprotected anal sex, regardless of whether it is practiced by straight or gay couples, is considered the riskiest activity for sexually transmitted diseases because of the physical design of the anus: It is narrow, it does not self-lubricate, and the skin is more fragile and likely to tear, allowing STDs such as HIV and hepatitis easy passage into the bloodstream.

"Anal sex produces a certain amount of trauma to the body and that's a problem, especially for HIV," says Myron Cohen, MD, director of the Center for Infectious Diseases at the University of North Carolina School of Medicine.

To make matters worse, the area is an ideal home for STDs. Bacterial infections such as gonorrhea and chlamydia love warm, moist environments and the type of cells that line the anus.


While unprotected anal sex is much more risky for the receptive partner, the insertive partner is not free from risk. And both partners are susceptible to picking up herpes, syphilis, and HPV even if they use a condom, because sores and warts can reside both inside and outside the anus. In the case of herpes, transmission can occur even in the absence of any genital lesions.

Safer Sex|How to Reduce the STD Risks of Anal Penetration - Sexual Health - Health.com
 

dust1n

Zindīq

You said, "If we all stopped sleeping around and we had only vaginal intercourse we would have almost NO STD'S AT ALL!!"

HIV can be contracted via needles. Strangely enough, no rules in Bible about injecting chemicals directly into the blood stream. HIV can go through breast milk. Also happens with blood transfusions, though good regulatory practice prevents this from happening often. The HIV outbreaks in Iran have more to do with heroin addiction than homosexuality. Also the majority of the HIV spread in Africa is through heterosexual sex, not homosexual sex.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
You said, "If we all stopped sleeping around and we had only vaginal intercourse we would have almost NO STD'S AT ALL!!"

HIV can be contracted via needles. Strangely enough, no rules in Bible about injecting chemicals directly into the blood stream. HIV can go through breast milk. Also happens with blood transfusions, though good regulatory practice prevents this from happening often. The HIV outbreaks in Iran have more to do with heroin addiction than homosexuality. Also the majority of the HIV spread in Africa is through heterosexual sex, not homosexual sex.

In 2010, young gay and bisexual men (aged 13-24 years) accounted for **72%** of new HIV infections among all persons aged 13 to 24
CDC – Fact Sheet - Gay and Bisexual Men – Gender – Risk – HIV/AIDS

This is staggering. This obviously implies that anal sex is the primary means of HIV transmission. Of course needles make it a compounding problem but its not the source. If we had less people being exposed to HIV there would be a dramatic decrease in transmissions via needles. Not the other way around.

Your comments on Africa are outdated and inaccurate.

Perhaps the most important anthropological report of homosexual behaviour in Africa is Lockhart’s14, who studied street boys in Mwanza, Tanzania (a city with a 11.8% adult HIV prevalence). Such a study should raise researchers’ index of suspicion for seeking self-reports of, especially, receptive anal intercourse, irrespective of sex. The boys in Mwanza, aged eight to 20, report having anal intercourse with other street boys, as part of initiation rites (i.e., forced receptive anal intercourse, by a gang of boys) into street boy culture and, following acceptance into the street life, occasionally awakening from sleep to find themselves being anally penetrated. Prostitution was rare; anal intercourse was placed in context of belonging to the group, as well as an exercise of power. Anal intercourse with older men known or not known to the street boys was also reported and often attributed to prison rape. By age 18, all boys also reported heterosexual sex; unfortunately, no information regarding heterosexual anal intercourse is provided. None of the boys considered their same-sex intercourse to be a homosexual act14.

For more on this see:

Assessing the role of anal intercourse in the epidemiology of AIDS in Africa
 

dust1n

Zindīq
In 2010, young gay and bisexual men (aged 13-24 years) accounted for **72%** of new HIV infections among all persons aged 13 to 24
CDC – Fact Sheet - Gay and Bisexual Men – Gender – Risk – HIV/AIDS

This is staggering. This obviously implies that anal sex is the primary means of HIV transmission. Of course needles make it a compounding problem but its not the source. If we had less people being exposed to HIV there would be a dramatic decrease in transmissions via needles. Not the other way around.

Your comments on Africa are outdated and inaccurate.

Perhaps the most important anthropological report of homosexual behaviour in Africa is Lockhart’s14, who studied street boys in Mwanza, Tanzania (a city with a 11.8% adult HIV prevalence). Such a study should raise researchers’ index of suspicion for seeking self-reports of, especially, receptive anal intercourse, irrespective of sex. The boys in Mwanza, aged eight to 20, report having anal intercourse with other street boys, as part of initiation rites (i.e., forced receptive anal intercourse, by a gang of boys) into street boy culture and, following acceptance into the street life, occasionally awakening from sleep to find themselves being anally penetrated. Prostitution was rare; anal intercourse was placed in context of belonging to the group, as well as an exercise of power. Anal intercourse with older men known or not known to the street boys was also reported and often attributed to prison rape. By age 18, all boys also reported heterosexual sex; unfortunately, no information regarding heterosexual anal intercourse is provided. None of the boys considered their same-sex intercourse to be a homosexual act14.

For more on this see:

Assessing the role of anal intercourse in the epidemiology of AIDS in Africa

Your study says:

"Our inquiry into the available, admittedly sparse, published literature suggests that anal intercourse is much more common in the populations living in sub-Saharan Africa than customarily suspected or reported by clinicians and researchers."

Entirely possible.

Also, something else.

Sub-Saharan Africa remains the hardest-hit region. HIV infection is becoming endemic in sub-Saharan Africa, which is home to just over 12% of the world’s population but two-thirds of all people infected with HIV.[12] The adult HIV prevalence rate is 5.0% and between 21.6 million and 24.1 million total are affected.[12] However, the actual prevalence varies between regions. Presently, Southern Africa is the hardest hit region, with adult prevalence rates exceeding 20% in most countries in the region, and 30% in Swaziland and Botswana.

Eastern Africa also experiences relatively high levels of prevalence with estimates above 10% in some countries, although there are signs that the pandemic is declining in this region. West Africa on the other hand has been much less affected by the pandemic. Several countries reportedly have prevalence rates around 2 to 3%, and no country has rates above 10%. In Nigeria and Côte d'Ivoire, two of the region's most populous countries, between 5 and 7% of adults are reported to carry the virus.

Across Sub-Saharan Africa, more women are infected with HIV than men, with 13 women infected for every 10 infected men. This gender gap continues to grow. Throughout the region, women are being infected with HIV at earlier ages than men. The differences in infection levels between women and men are most pronounced among young people (aged 15–24 years). In this age group, there are 36 women infected with HIV for every 10 men. The widespread prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases, the practice of scarification, unsafe blood transfusions, and the poor state of hygiene and nutrition in some areas may all be facilitating factors in the transmission of HIV-1 (Bentwich et al., 1995).

Mother-to-child transmission is another contributing factor in the transmission of HIV-1 in developing nations. Due to a lack of testing, a shortage in antenatal therapies and through the feeding of contaminated breast milk, 590,000 infants born in developing countries are infected with HIV-1 per year. In 2000, the World Health Organization estimated that 25% of the units of blood transfused in Africa were not tested for HIV, and that 10% of HIV infections in Africa were transmitted via blood.

Poor economic conditions (leading to the use of dirty needles in healthcare clinics) and lack of sex education contribute to high rates of infection. In some African countries, 25% or more of the working adult population is HIV-positive. Poor economic conditions caused by slow onset-emergencies, such as drought, or rapid onset natural disasters and conflict can result in young women and girls being forced into using sex as a survival strategy.[15] Worse still, research indicates that as emergencies, such as drought, take their toll and the number of potential 'clients' decreases, women are forced by clients to accept greater risks, such as not using contraceptives.[15]

Epidemiology of HIV/AIDS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Again though, even if my statement was wrong, and anal sex was the number one way AIDs spread through Africa, that still wouldn't qualify your original statement, "Only those predisposed at birth would still be potential carriers," which would be patently wrong regardless.
 

morphesium

Active Member
Ok. I don't need you to agree. My point was that I believe the Torah's strict stance of anal sex was due to the danger it presents to humans. Many Bible believers maintain that God was against homosexual's themselves. This was clearly not the case. The prohibition was against one specific action. An action, we now know is a dangerous practice which spreads disease very easily. Of course, I can't prove my theory. Just providing a logic reason and interpretation for why I believe it.

In communities where anal sex is prohibited by death sentence, most of such acts are done in secracy. may be just 1 in 10 or 50 gets punishments. More over there would be male -female anal sex that could be happening, and nobody suspects it.

So lets say that in a society there are effectively 20 anal sex doers who successfully happened to manage those in secrecy and 1 who was punished with death sentence, and since the society progresses without a threat, it should make similar progress even with 21 anal sex doers (that is with out death sentence). why do you think there were societies existed and flourished where anal sex was legal and accepted form of sex. I think in some early Greek civilization, this form of sex was quite wide spread and accepted and it flourished.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Again though, even if my statement was wrong, and anal sex was the number one way AIDs spread through Africa, that still wouldn't qualify your original statement, "Only those predisposed at birth would still be potential carriers," which would be patently wrong regardless.

Ok my friend. I will retract my earlier statement. Its inaccurate to say that "only those predisposed at birth" would be potential carriers. I will concede that point.

My overall point was that if society was predominantly monogamous and also refrained from anal sex (homosexuals and heterosexuals) we we would dramatically reduce dangerous STD transmissions. Some STD's would even potentially be eliminated! I still think I have a point overall in this discussion.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Ok my friend. I will retract my earlier statement. Its inaccurate to say that "only those predisposed at birth" would be potential carriers. I will concede that point.

My overall point was that if society was predominantly monogamous and also refrained from anal sex (homosexuals and heterosexuals) we we would dramatically reduce dangerous STD transmissions. Some STD's would even potentially be eliminated! I still think I have a point overall in this discussion.

Sure. You would be right to say that anal sex is ultiamtely more risky for a number of health reasons. One could definitely make the case that ancient people, included the Jewish people of long ago, were able to deduce that anal sex was probably likely to get someone sick, or be especially icky. Thus, a taboo was formed. I don't really see it as divinely inspired, but after all, I don't believe in divinity. And since you presumably don't support some sort of anal sex ban, or feel like people who have anal sex need to be punished by society or something, we really don't have too much of a disagreement.

Plenty of people don't have anal sex for totally preferential reasons. Power to 'em. Autonomy is the way to go when possible.

As far as young boys being continuously raped as a part of as initiation into street gangs in incredibly impoverished areas of the world... definitely tragic beyond belief.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
In communities where anal sex is prohibited by death sentence, most of such acts are done in secracy. may be just 1 in 10 or 50 gets punishments. More over there would be male -female anal sex that could be happening, and nobody suspects it.

So lets say that in a society there are effectively 20 anal sex doers who successfully happened to manage those in secrecy and 1 who was punished with death sentence, and since the society progresses without a threat, it should make similar progress even with 21 anal sex doers (that is with out death sentence). why do you think there were societies existed and flourished where anal sex was legal and accepted form of sex. I think in some early Greek civilization, this form of sex was quite wide spread and accepted and it flourished.
First off. I don't condone the death penalty in these countries because they operate under a completely different legal structure as the ancient Israelites. My earlier point was not pertaining to people being killed as much as people being strictly warned and discouraged from practicing this form of sex. Thats where I believe the command was intended to preserve humans…not kill them. The harsh threat of death was a psychological deterrent in my view.

Very few people were actually killed under this type of law structure in the first century. Many first century Rabbi's said that if they put one person to death in a seven year period it was "destructive". Capitol punishment required at least two eye witnesses to solidify the matter. There is a built in "right of privacy", so to speak, in the law of Moses. Also, few people would have wanted to be "false witnesses" during this time period. If a person got convicted of falsely testifying in court they would then be liable for the very crime the other person was being accused of. So if someone lied on the stand in a murder trial they would then be liable for the death penalty themselves!
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Sure. You would be right to say that anal sex is ultiamtely more risky for a number of health reasons. One could definitely make the case that ancient people, included the Jewish people of long ago, were able to deduce that anal sex was probably likely to get someone sick, or be especially icky. Thus, a taboo was formed. I don't really see it as divinely inspired, but after all, I don't believe in divinity. And since you presumably don't support some sort of anal sex ban, or feel like people who have anal sex need to be punished by society or something, we really don't have too much of a disagreement.

Plenty of people don't have anal sex for totally preferential reasons. Power to 'em. Autonomy is the way to go when possible.

As far as young boys being continuously raped as a part of as initiation into street gangs in incredibly impoverished areas of the world... definitely tragic beyond belief.
No. I would never want to force my beliefs on others. I also believe that the Bible has been falsely portrayed by many religious institutions concerning this issue. Many people believe that the Bible is hateful to homosexuals themselves! They also distort stories like Sodom and Gomorrah to make it look like a punishment of homosexual activity. The Torah does not prohibit a man from loving another man. The Torah does not even prevent many sexual acts between men. The strict ban always was relating to anal sex specifically imho and for logical reasons.

For a thought provoking article on this topic I recommend these two links (note... they are addressed to the western Christian audience):

How A Christian Should Treat Homosexuals
Homosexuality Adultery & The Law's Capital Punishment
 
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McBell

Admiral Obvious
Is Anal Sex Safe?
There are a number of health risks with anal sex, and anal intercourse is the riskiest form of sexual activity for several reasons, including the following:

  • The anus lacks the natural lubrication the vagina has. Penetration can tear the tissue inside the anus, allowing bacteria and viruses to enter the bloodstream. This can result in the spread of sexually transmitted infections including HIV. Studies have suggested that anal exposure to HIV poses 30 times more risk for the receptive partner than vaginal exposure. Exposure to the human papillomavirus (HPV) may also lead to the development of anal warts and anal cancer. Using lubricants can help some, but doesn't completely prevent tearing.
  • The tissue inside the anus is not as well protected as the skinoutside the anus. Our external tissue has layers of dead cells that serve as a protective barrier against infection. The tissue inside the anus does not have this natural protection, which leaves it vulnerable to tearing and the spread of infection.
  • The anus was designed to hold in feces. The anus is surrounded with a ring-like muscle, called the anal sphincter, which tightens after we defecate. When the muscle is tight, anal penetration can be painful and difficult. Repetitive anal sex may lead to weakening of the anal sphincter, making it difficult to hold in feces until you can get to the toilet. However, Kegel exercises to strengthen the sphincter may help prevent this problem or correct it.
  • The anus is full of bacteria. Even if both partners do not have a sexually-transmitted infection or disease, bacteria normally in the anus can potentially infect the giving partner. Practicing vaginal sex after anal sex can also lead to vaginal and urinary tract infections.
Anal Sex Safety and Health Concerns

In 2012, men who have sex with men (MSM) accounted for 75% of primary and secondary syphilis cases in the United States. MSM often are diagnosed with other STDs, including chlamydia and gonorrhea infections.

CDC - Sexually Transmitted Diseases - Gay and Bisexual Men's Health
You will need to be more specific where the above supports your claim:
Statistics show that vast bulk of STD's are spread via anal sex.​
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
First off, The Torah of Moses does not prohibit same sex love or feelings. Nor does it condemn a person for these types of thoughts. The prohibition in the law of Moses was specifically against male to male anal sex. One could argue that anal sex in general should be prohibited based off of this verse alone.

I believe that God knew that anal sex was able to spread deadly diseases which harm the very people who carry out these acts! Its for the preservation of these very people that He commended these things…not because God somehow hated homosexuals!

Listen to this report from the CDC on HIV and its relation to men who have sex with men:
Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM)a represent approximately 2% of the United States population, yet are the population most severely affected by HIV. In 2010, young gay and bisexual men (aged 13-24 years) accounted for **72%** of new HIV infections among all persons aged 13 to 24
CDC – Fact Sheet - Gay and Bisexual Men – Gender – Risk – HIV/AIDS

Notice that the Torah never said it was wrong to have sexual impulses for men! In fact, the Torah's declaration against the action implies that God knew men would have the impulse. He simply understood the dangers that it caused to the men who would do this act. Once again, He is trying to protect the very people WHO HAVE THESE IMPULSES! I personally do not believe humans are born either gay or straight. We are simply born. Sexual decisions do not constitute a definition for men or women in my opinion. We are simply humans who have the choice to act however we want to act. God informs us on the actions that will cause us harm and the actions that will cause us good. This was the whole reason why He laid down His commandments.

"Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that (for this purpose) it might be well with them and with their children forever!" Deuteronomy 5:29

Everyone has the freedom to choose their actions…choose wisely!

The problem I see with your argument is only referencing stats for HIV. HIV came from monkeys to us, therefore it may or may not have actually been sex with monkeys that caused SIV to become HIV.

The Virus - How It Began - Hiv Before The Age Of Aids | The Age Of Aids | FRONTLINE | PBS
 
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