Why the lie?

[Kcnorwood]

We all know about why the Christians placed thier holidays around Pagan holidays.

We also know that when the bible talked about Witchcraft & that a Witch should not live.


In both these stories it was a lie. The word Witch was a mis-translation which was never corrected so if the bible & Christianty is supposed to be a moral compass of sorts. So why the lies? Which makes me wonder what else was a lie?

 

[blackout]

What was Witch a mistranslation of Kcnorwood?

I believe I have heard this before,
but can't remember.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

We all know about why the Christians placed thier holidays around Pagan holidays.

I rather enjoy the mix that I've grown up with, though. Crosses and evergreen wreathes work well together.

We also know that when the bible talked about Witchcraft & that a Witch should not live.


In both these stories it was a lie. The word Witch was a mis-translation which was never corrected so if the bible & Christianty is supposed to be a moral compass of sorts. So why the lies? Which makes me wonder what else was a lie?

As with any moral system, it is designed to uphold the mores of the culture that adopts it. Unfortunately, that often leaves a lot of people marginalized and dehumanized in the name of a "greater good" which is the dominate social structure.

 

[Gentoo]

What was Witch a mistranslation of Kcnorwood?

I believe I have heard this before,
but can't remember.

I've heard that it was a mistranslation of a mistranslation of a well-poisoner. Which makes sense for the time period, a desert people needed their water wells, and those who poisoned them were not looked kindly upon, to put it lightly.

 

[blackout]

I've heard that it was a mistranslation of a mistranslation of a well-poisoner. Which makes sense for the time period, a desert people needed their water wells, and those who poisoned them were not looked kindly upon, to put it lightly.

Nope. I definately had not heard that before. LOL! thanks.

That's quite a mistranslation! hehe

 

[blackout]

Perhaps "well-poisoner" was switched with "well-finder"?

(as in one who dowses for water?-- a "diviner")

Change the meaning of "well" and it gets interesting.

 

[Gentoo]

I don't know if it's true or not, just something I picked up on along the grapevine..

 

[Dunemeister]

We all know about why the Christians placed thier holidays around Pagan holidays.

We also know that when the bible talked about Witchcraft & that a Witch should not live.


In both these stories it was a lie. The word Witch was a mis-translation which was never corrected so if the bible & Christianty is supposed to be a moral compass of sorts. So why the lies? Which makes me wonder what else was a lie?

Which stories are you talking about? In the case of holiday timing, the church never taught that Jesus was really born on December 25. That was rather the day the birth was commemorated. Nobody actually knows the date of Jesus' birth. Even the year is disputed.

Easter, same thing. Nobody knows exactly what day he died. All we know is that it was on the eve of a Sabbath.

In both cases, the dates were set in order to subvert pagan worship and to provide alternative celebrations for those Christians who were still tempted by the pagan rites. The church, as far as I know, has never pretended otherwise. So where's the lie?

As for the translation issue, again, where's the lie? If it was a mistranslation (I'm not convinced it was, but I'm open to the possibility), why assume it was nefarious and not simply an honest mistake? Or perhaps a mistake produced by cultural assumptions when the word was translated? Or.....?

 

[Mister Emu]

We all know about why the Christians placed thier holidays around Pagan holidays.

I can't think of one aside from Christmas?

In both these stories it was a lie. The word Witch was a mis-translation which was never corrected so if the bible & Christianty is supposed to be a moral compass of sorts. So why the lies?

Why do you assume the "mistranslation" was intentional and not accidental? (edit: also, can you point out why you believe it is a mistranslation?)

In both cases, the dates were set in order to subvert pagan worship and to provide alternative celebrations for those Christians who were still tempted by the pagan rites.

The date of easter is tied to the date of Passover...

 

[ChristineES]

Actually, if one believes the Bible, then they know also that Jesus died during Passover season-- The Bible tells us that much.

 

[Kcnorwood]

Which stories are you talking about? In the case of holiday timing, the church never taught that Jesus was really born on December 25. That was rather the day the birth was commemorated. Nobody actually knows the date of Jesus' birth. Even the year is disputed.

The bible says that the shepards were attending the flocks so more then likey it was spring or eary summer.


Easter, same thing. Nobody knows exactly what day he died. All we know is that it was on the eve of a Sabbath.

And so the Christians just happaned to pick another Pagan holiday off the top of thier head?

In both cases, the dates were set in order to subvert pagan worship and to provide alternative celebrations for those Christians who were still tempted by the pagan rites. The church, as far as I know, has never pretended otherwise. So where's the lie?


No, they wanted to make it easier for Pagans to convert by placing thier holidays near the Pagan holiday. It's a lie by telling people that thier God dided, rose & was born on those days. They even lied to other Christians.


As for the translation issue, again, where's the lie? If it was a mistranslation (I'm not convinced it was, but I'm open to the possibility), why assume it was nefarious and not simply an honest mistake? Or perhaps a mistake produced by cultural assumptions when the word was translated? Or.....?

Then why not correct the mistake? If it was such a honest mistake then they should correct it being that they are so moral.

 

[Kcnorwood]

I can't think of one aside from Christmas?

Easter & Halloween





Why do you assume the "mistranslation" was intentional and not accidental? (edit: also, can you point out why you believe it is a mistranslation?)


The King James bible was translated chasaph which meant poisoner not witch. I'm assuming Witch sounded better to keep people from following the old religion. Chasaph is the Hewbew work for posioner.



The date of easter is tied to the date of Passover...

Again which just happens to be close to a Pagan holiday? How convient.

 

[Dunemeister]

I've already said this about a million times, so this time I'll use larger font. I'll say it slightly differently so as to remove ambiguity (although I fail to see how my other posts have been ambiguous, if that was the problem).


The church used pagan festival times to commemorate various aspects of the life of Jesus in order to subvert the larger pagan culture. The dates were chosen strategically. Christmas was a subversion of the Saturnus festival, and Easter subverted the typical pagan harvest festivals. Additionally, those dates were chosen in order to give Christians who were tempted to fall back to paganism an alternative to the pagan rites. So the choice of those dates had nothing to do with buying into the pagan theology. It was rather the opposite: an attempt to subvert that theology. And yes, it was also an attempt to make it easier for pagans to convert. The choice had missionary and pastoral motivations. The church has never officially taught that Jesus was born or killed on the Christmas and Good Friday feast days.

 

[Mister Emu]

Easter & Halloween

The date of Easter/Pascha is tied to the date of passover... not pagan worship...

Though I forgot about All Saint's day(stupid me), Eastern Catholics however celebrate it the first Sunday after the Pentacost...

The King James bible was translated chasaph which meant poisoner not witch. I'm assuming Witch sounded better to keep people from following the old religion. Chasaph is the Hewbew work for posioner.

Can you inform me where you are getting this? The word Kashaph appears 6 times in the Bible, Exodus 7:11, in reference to the Pharoah's magicians.
Exodus 22:18, the verse in question.
Deuteronomy 18:10, where it is put in with the likes of divination, enchanting, and being "an observer of times".
2nd Chronicle 33:6, where it is put again with enchanters, observing times along with familiar spirits and wizards.
Daniel 2:2, put in with astrologers and magicians
Malachi 3:5, the only other time it is not paired with other supernatural workers...

According to its usage, at least Biblically, it appears very much to deal with a practioner of supernatural powers, and in my opinion "poisoner" makes no sense in a couple of the verses(Daniel 2:2 for example, where Kashaph are called in to interpret dreams along with magicians, astrologers and chaldeans... "poisoner" makes no sense here.)

Again which just happens to be close to a Pagan holiday? How convient.

Typology (theology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Whether you think the earlier Christians used typology to determine the life of Christ they wrote about, or that the OT really did foreshadow the NT it explains the dating of Easter/Pascha in relation to the Passover...

Easter subverted the typical pagan harvest festivals.

Passover...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The word Witch was a mis-translation which was never corrected ...

Perhaps you could give us your translation of Exodus 22:17.

 

[McBell]

The King James bible was translated chasaph which meant poisoner not witch. I'm assuming Witch sounded better to keep people from following the old religion. Chasaph is the Hewbew work for posioner.

this is interesting...

In the original Hebrew manuscript, the author used the word m'khashepah (this is the word that was translated into the KJV to mean witch or sorceress)to describe the person who should be killed.

The word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others
Church of Reality Discussion Board :: View topic - witchcraft in the bible..
​

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]
~~~~~~~~
Note 1: The Hebrew word "m'khashepah" has generally been translated as witch or sorceress. The word in the original text means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others - e.g. causing their death or loss of property. "sorceress" by itself is not a good translation, because in modern day usage, a sorcerer or sorceress may restrict themselves to performing positive healing magic. Clearly, "evil sorceress" or "woman who does evil magic" would be the most accurate phrase. Why the evil, male version of " m'khashepah" was not persecuted is lost in the mists of time.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_vers1.htm[/FONT][/FONT]

the Hebrew words m'khashepah and m'khaseph, which are translated as witch, mean, in Hebrew, evil sorcerer or sorceress and refer specifically to “a person who uses spells and incantations to hurt or kill other people.”
http://cc25980.hostcentric.com/sermons.asp?sermon=45&action=menu&value=136&pagecode=92
​

~~~~~~~
Biblical witches - evil sorcery and poisoning: In the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament): an evil person who secretly uses spoken curses to intentionally harm others. The Hebrew word for such an individual is m'khashepah or m'khaseph (depending upon gender). Exodus 22:18 is one example. This is sometimes translated as "witch," in some English translations of the Bible -- particularly older versions. "Evil sorceress/sorcerer" would be a less ambiguous term. 1 This type of witch is also similar to ancient Native American usage. In the Christian Scriptures (New Testament): a criminal who murders people by secretly preparing and administering poisons. See Galatians 5:19-20. The Greek word here is "pharmakia," from which our English word "pharmacy" originated. Probably because of King James' obsessive fear of evil witches, the Greek word was translated as "witchcraft," in the KJV Bible. "Poisoner" or "murderer" would be less ambiguous terms.
http://www.celticcallings.com/resources/religions.htm
​

Now according to Search Gods Word website:

Chasaph
to strip, strip off, lay bare, make bare, draw out​

1. 1. (Qal)
      1. to strip off
      2. to strip, lay bare
      3. to draw (water), skim, take from the surface

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]
So I cannot help but wonder if perhaps you have gotten the wrong word?
However, even if it was the wrong word, i fail to understand how you got not only the wrong word, but also the wrong definition for said wrong word.....

Did I miss something?
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The date of Easter/Pascha is tied to the date of passover... not pagan worship...

Easter did incorporate many of the Pagan rituals associated with their Vernal Equinox celebrations.

Though I forgot about All Saint's day(stupid me), Eastern Catholics however celebrate it the first Sunday after the Pentacost...

There's also St. Valentine's Day, possibly, which is sometimes linked to the Roman festival Lupercalia (though this is stretching the definition of "Pagan", since I know that the definition of the term excludes the Roman religion).

Also, St. Brigid's Day seems to me to have its roots in Irish Celtic celebrations of the beginning of spring.

 

[Kcnorwood]

this is interesting...

In the original Hebrew manuscript, the author used the word m'khashepah (this is the word that was translated into the KJV to mean witch or sorceress)to describe the person who should be killed.

The word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others
Church of Reality Discussion Board :: View topic - witchcraft in the bible..
​

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]~~~~~~~~[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Note 1:[/FONT][FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica] The Hebrew word "m'khashepah" has generally been translated as witch or sorceress. The word in the original text means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others - e.g. causing their death or loss of property. "sorceress" by itself is not a good translation, because in modern day usage, a sorcerer or sorceress may restrict themselves to performing positive healing magic. Clearly, "evil sorceress" or "woman who does evil magic" would be the most accurate phrase. Why the evil, male version of " m'khashepah" was not persecuted is lost in the mists of time.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_vers1.htm[/FONT][/FONT]

the Hebrew words m'khashepah and m'khaseph, which are translated as witch, mean, in Hebrew, evil sorcerer or sorceress and refer specifically to “a person who uses spells and incantations to hurt or kill other people.”
http://cc25980.hostcentric.com/sermons.asp?sermon=45&action=menu&value=136&pagecode=92
​

~~~~~~~
Biblical witches - evil sorcery and poisoning: In the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament): an evil person who secretly uses spoken curses to intentionally harm others. The Hebrew word for such an individual is m'khashepah or m'khaseph (depending upon gender). Exodus 22:18 is one example. This is sometimes translated as "witch," in some English translations of the Bible -- particularly older versions. "Evil sorceress/sorcerer" would be a less ambiguous term. 1 This type of witch is also similar to ancient Native American usage. In the Christian Scriptures (New Testament): a criminal who murders people by secretly preparing and administering poisons. See Galatians 5:19-20. The Greek word here is "pharmakia," from which our English word "pharmacy" originated. Probably because of King James' obsessive fear of evil witches, the Greek word was translated as "witchcraft," in the KJV Bible. "Poisoner" or "murderer" would be less ambiguous terms.
http://www.celticcallings.com/resources/religions.htm
​

Now according to Search Gods Word website:

Chasaph
to strip, strip off, lay bare, make bare, draw out
​

1. 1. (Qal)
      1. to strip off
      2. to strip, lay bare
      3. to draw (water), skim, take from the surface

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]So I cannot help but wonder if perhaps you have gotten the wrong word?[/FONT]
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]However, even if it was the wrong word, i fail to understand how you got not only the wrong word, but also the wrong definition for said wrong word.....[/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Did I miss something?[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT]

No, I've seen both translations being used go figure on that one the most I've saw was chasaph so I used that word. The Hewbrew launage can be a tricky thing. One other translantion I've heard is one who uses herbs.

 

[Kcnorwood]

I've already said this about a million times, so this time I'll use larger font. I'll say it slightly differently so as to remove ambiguity (although I fail to see how my other posts have been ambiguous, if that was the problem).


The church used pagan festival times to commemorate various aspects of the life of Jesus in order to subvert the larger pagan culture. The dates were chosen strategically. Christmas was a subversion of the Saturnus festival, and Easter subverted the typical pagan harvest festivals. Additionally, those dates were chosen in order to give Christians who were tempted to fall back to paganism an alternative to the pagan rites. So the choice of those dates had nothing to do with buying into the pagan theology. It was rather the opposite: an attempt to subvert that theology. And yes, it was also an attempt to make it easier for pagans to convert. The choice had missionary and pastoral motivations. The church has never officially taught that Jesus was born or killed on the Christmas and Good Friday feast days.

You can use whatever words you want to try & justify early Christians placing their holidays near the Pagan holidays. If the Christians were SO sure of thier faith & God was the right & only way, then they should of paid more
Attention to what thier bible said. It is a traditional imperialist maxin that to conquer a nation you must first subvert or remove the people to which are more dangerous to you. In this case it was the Pagans.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

***MOD POST***​

Folks, let's keep this discussion and debate civil and please refrain from personal remarks.

Several off-topic posts have been removed.​