Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

[Rival]

Jesus was God incarnated who died for our sins.

I'm sorry your sins were so bad your god killed himself.

 

[Skywalker]

I'm sorry your sins were so bad your god killed himself.

No matter how hard we try we are still going to sin. God died for our sins because we are not good enough to stand in His presence. Sin separates people from God.

 

[YoursTrue]

Jews are people like every other ethnicity. We got righteous Jews, evil Jews, good Jews, bad Jews, and mediocre Jews. Just like everyone else. What Jews have is the oracles of God -- we have the Torah, the Prophets, the Writings (what others call the Old Testament). Through the Torah, we have a highly specific call from God to be an ethical, priestly people. Do we rise to the occasion? Sometimes yes, other times no. Some of us yes, some of us no. But the plan is there for us in black and white, our covenant with God.

What was said previously is that you don't need to be a Jew to be a good person. You don't need to be part of our people, you don't need to be keeping our covenant i.e. keeping kosher, observing the Shabbat, doing the Holy Days, separating your linen from your wool, etc. It is fine if you just simply keep basic morals, which are obvious to everyone. Don't murder. Don't steal. You get the picture.

LOL You have no idea just ironic the above statement is. It really had me in stitches. You see, for something that is supposed to be a myth, you then articulated it perfectly as something you personally believe.

Not sure who you are responding to here. So in the future if you could put the post you're replying to in your reply post, that would be nice.
When, by the way, the "call from God" was pushed aside by those who were Biblically in that covenant relationship with the God of Israel, there were often some pretty serious consequences.

 

[YoursTrue]

a. Obviously not. Paul was evil. Jesus may have also been. Multiple Jewish apostates to Christianity were evil, like Pablo Christiani. Then we have people like Bernie Madoff. So, no.
b. The quote I have in my signature aligns well with Jewish beliefs that there's no need for the pushy proselytizing of some other religions, in particular certain sects of Christianity, and every person can find fulfillment in worshiping God pretty much as they are. No need to convert. There's an expectation that all will come one day to worship God as God intended, without the falsehoods of various religions, but besides that, there's no need to actually convert to Judaism.
c. An extension of that is that for many ages, it was thought in various religions that to be fully good, one must convert to that particular religion. Modern Western thought has forced various religions to seemingly change these core views and claim that there are alternative paths to God. I very much doubt that the people who started these religions intended for this to be so, that one needn't convert to worship fully and merit God's blessing, and I'm sure there are still many people from these religions who maintain that this modernized theology is heretical. For ages now, Judaism has not advocated for any form of "convert and be saved". Judaism has a concept of "righteous among the nations". That's not something that popped up due to the West.

Oh wow. OK. Well, have a nice day while the sun shines.

 

[YoursTrue]

a. Obviously not. Paul was evil. Jesus may have also been. Multiple Jewish apostates to Christianity were evil, like Pablo Christiani. Then we have people like Bernie Madoff. So, no.
b. The quote I have in my signature aligns well with Jewish beliefs that there's no need for the pushy proselytizing of some other religions, in particular certain sects of Christianity, and every person can find fulfillment in worshiping God pretty much as they are. No need to convert. There's an expectation that all will come one day to worship God as God intended, without the falsehoods of various religions, but besides that, there's no need to actually convert to Judaism.
c. An extension of that is that for many ages, it was thought in various religions that to be fully good, one must convert to that particular religion. Modern Western thought has forced various religions to seemingly change these core views and claim that there are alternative paths to God. I very much doubt that the people who started these religions intended for this to be so, that one needn't convert to worship fully and merit God's blessing, and I'm sure there are still many people from these religions who maintain that this modernized theology is heretical. For ages now, Judaism has not advocated for any form of "convert and be saved". Judaism has a concept of "righteous among the nations". That's not something that popped up due to the West.

So -- what do you think you have to do to be "good," and what's the outcome in your mind and vocabulary for those not "doing good." ??

 

[Harel13]

Oh wow. OK. Well, have a nice day while the sun shines.

Why, thank you. It's already night by us, but I did have a pretty good day.

So -- what do you think you have to do to be "good,"

Do your best to follow God's commandments. All that are applicable to you, that is.

and what's the outcome in your mind and vocabulary for those not "doing good." ??

A hellish soul-cleanse for moderate evil and a form of spiritual annihilation for the really really evil ones.

 

[YoursTrue]

Why, thank you. It's already night by us, but I did have a pretty good day.

Do your best to follow God's commandments. All that are applicable to you, that is.

A hellish soul-cleanse for moderate evil and a form of spiritual annihilation for the really really evil ones.

Hmmm is that what the oral law teaches?

 

[YoursTrue]

Excuse me? Judaism, Islam, Baha'ism, various Paganisms all have this.

Again, may I ask to whom are you referring, although I think you may be making a good point.

 

[Harel13]

Hmmm is that what the oral law teaches?

Which line? Me having a good day, the need to keep commandments or post-death punishments?

 

[Rival]

Again, may I ask to whom are you referring, although I think you may be making a good point.

I'm responding to Skywalker. I quoted him, so I'm not sure why you didn't get that?

 

[Skywalker]

Hmmm is that what the oral law teaches?

Oral law is rabbinic traditions, not the scriptures. The Orthodox Rabbis claim God gave Moses an "Oral Law" on Mt. Sinai (in addition to the written law), which allegedly grants them absolute power and control. The rabbis are always contradicting each other. Some rabbis teach that the Suffering Servant is Israel. Chapter Two: The Suffering Servant by Mark Eastman

Modern rabbis contend that the suffering servant is not the Messiah. Rather, they claim, he is either an unknown temple priest, perhaps King Hezekiah,[2] or even the nation of Israel itself.

Again, 20th century Jewish author Samuel Levine regarding the suffering servant in Isaiah 53:

"Many Jewish commentators feel that it [Isaiah 53] refers to the Jewish people on the whole. We find many instances in the Bible where the Jewish people on the whole are addressed to, or are described, in the singulary....Thus, Isaiah 53 could very well be describing the history of the Jewish people - despised by the world, persecuted by the crusaders and the Spanish Inquisition and the Nazis, while the world silently watched...The verses therefore do not point exclusively to Jesus, or to a Messiah."[3]
However popular this belief has become in modern Jewish scholarship, it has not been held throughout the history of rabbinical thought. There is abundant written evidence, from ancient rabbinical sources, that the suffering servant is indeed the Messiah.[4] In fact, by the time of the writing of the Mishna and the Talmud, the paradoxical destiny of the Messiah had created a struggle in the minds of the rabbis. In addition to the suffering servant prophecies, the Bible had woven throughout its text the prophecies of a triumphant, ruling and reigning king who would bring everlasting righteousness to the earth and restore Israel to its place of prominence among the nations. This contradiction was too much for the rabbis to unite into one person. So, they began to speculate that there were to be two or possibly three Messiahs!

 

[Harel13]

Oral law is rabbinic traditions, not the scriptures. The Orthodox Rabbis claim God gave Moses an "Oral Law" on Mt. Sinai (in addition to the written law), which allegedly grants them absolute power and control. The rabbis are always contradicting each other.

But Christians never contradict each other.

 

[Skywalker]

But Christians never contradict each other.

I wasn't saying that I don't believe in the Old Testament, I was saying I don't believe in rabbinic tradition. I believe in the Old and New Testament, but I don't believe in everything that pastors teach. I go to church to hear the Word of God, not to follow the clergy. Pastors are human beings who make mistakes like everyone else. How do you identify a false teacher and what are the signs? | carm.org

• [*]False teachers will often seek to add to the work of Christ some law, work, ritual, or ordinance that a believer must also perform in addition to repentance and faith in Christ, saying that this too must be done to be saved, (Galatians 3, 1 Timothy 4:1-5).
  [*]On the other hand, many false teachers will do the opposite, proclaiming that, because God is so merciful and salvation is by grace alone, you, therefore, don’t need to repent at all. They pervert God’s grace and make it a license to sin, (Jude 4).
  [*]Any teacher who subtly denies Jesus (2 Peter 2:1), or His authority (Jude 4), or His deity (1 Corinthians 12:2-3), or that He came down from heaven and took on human flesh and died in our place (1 John 1:1-3), these are clearly false teachers.

 

[Harel13]

I wasn't saying that I don't believe in the Old Testament

Nor did I say that you said that.

but I don't believe in everything that pastors teach

Exactly, you're proving my point. Two Jews- three opinions. Two Christians- ten opinions and 30-year long wars.

 

[Skywalker]

Nor did I say that you said that.

Exactly, you're proving my point. Two Jews- three opinions. Two Christians- ten opinions and 30-year long wars.

I don't know what the church did, but that has nothing to do with God dying for his creation.

 

[Harel13]

I don't know what the church did, but that has nothing to do with God dying for his creation.

Doesn't contradict my point in the least.

 

[Skywalker]

Doesn't contradict my point in the least.

You mentioned the mistakes of the church. The mistakes of the church have nothing to do with Jesus being the Messiah.

 

[Harel13]

You mentioned the mistakes of the church. The mistakes of the church have nothing to do with Jesus being the Messiah.

I mentioned it to point out that Christians both contradict each and the ramifications of their in-fighting are far worse than those of Jews.

 

[Skywalker]

I mentioned it to point out that Christians both contradict each and the ramifications of their in-fighting are far worse than those of Jews.

I was saying that rabbis contradict each other to say that the belief that the Suffering Servant isn't the Messiah is an interpretation of many rabbis, it doesn't mean that's what the Old Testament teaches. Is the “The Suffering Servant” prophecy in Isaiah 53 about Jesus? | GotQuestions.org

Perhaps the greatest of all Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh (the Hebrew Scriptures / the Old Testament) concerning the advent of the Jewish Messiah is found in the 53rd chapter of the prophet Isaiah. This section of the Prophets, also known as the “Suffering Servant,” has been long understood by the historical Rabbis of Judaism to speak of the Redeemer who will one day come to Zion. Here is a sampling of what Judaism has traditionally believed about the identity of the "Suffering Servant" of Isaiah 53:

The Babylonian Talmud says: "The Messiah, what is his name? The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, ‘surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b).

Midrash Ruth Rabbah says: "Another explanation (of Ruth 2:14): He is speaking of king Messiah; ‘Come hither,' draw near to the throne; ‘and eat of the bread,' that is, the bread of the kingdom; ‘and dip thy morsel in the vinegar,' this refers to his chastisements, as it is said, `But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities.'"

The Targum Jonathan says: "Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high and increase and be exceedingly strong."

The Zohar says: "’He was wounded for our transgressions,' etc....There is in the Garden of Eden a palace called the Palace of the Sons of Sickness; this palace the Messiah then enters, and summons every sickness, every pain, and every chastisement of Israel; they all come and rest upon him. And were it not that he had thus lightened them off Israel and taken them upon himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel’s chastisements for the transgression of the law: and this is that which is written, `Surely our sicknesses he hath carried.'"

The great (Rambam) Rabbi Moses Maimonides says: "What is the manner of Messiah’s advent....there shall rise up one of whom none have known before, and signs and wonders which they shall see performed by him will be the proofs of his true origin; for the Almighty, where he declares to us his mind upon this matter, says, `Behold a man whose name is the Branch, and he shall branch forth out of his place' (Zechariah 6:12). And Isaiah speaks similarly of the time when he shall appear, without father or mother or family being known, He came up as a sucker before him, and as a root out of dry earth, etc....in the words of Isaiah, when describing the manner in which kings will harken to him, At him kings will shut their mouth; for that which had not been told them have they seen, and that which they had not heard they have perceived."

 

[Harel13]

I was saying that rabbis contradict each other to say that the belief that the Suffering Servant isn't the Messiah is an interpretation of many rabbis, it doesn't mean that's what the Old Testament teaches. Is the “The Suffering Servant” prophecy in Isaiah 53 about Jesus? | GotQuestions.org

Neither what Christians say about it means that's what it teaches.