Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

[rosends]

Yes, Jewish tradition. It's strange but the bible condemns Jews (I speak as a part Jew myself)
yet the Jews treat the Tanakh as their book. They are the people of the book - a book which
places curses upon them.

The etxt lists curses and blessings and ties them to our behavior, and it is our text because it was given to us to be our text.

I take Psalm 22 at face value. It's referring to SOMEONE, it's up to you to decide who. Best to
read it without Jews or Christian conventions - just read it for yourself. I am reminded of Psalm
69 and the second half of Isaiah 52 and the whole of Isaiah 53 - I see these all referring to a
single man, single event.

If you read it without religious conventions, then it is, at face value, a psalm of David (as it says in the first verse) and speaks in the first person, making the protagonist David. Thinking that it refers to anyone else is imposing an outside agenda on it. If it reminds you of Is 52 and 53 then you have to ask whether you are reading those sections without Christian conventions because they don't say anything about Jesus.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I asked about your teacher. What is he name?

Ha Shem teaches all freely from Tanakh, which is superior to Talmud. In Tanakh is revealed pointers to King Messiah.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Commentary!

Torah/teachings will be magnified! Isaiah 42:21

42:21 says HE will magnify the Law.

HE magnified it in person in King Messiah.

HE magnifies, not Hillel, not Ramban, HE.

HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Ha Shem teaches all freely from Tanakh, which is superior to Talmud. In Tanakh is revealed pointers to King Messiah.

Got it. I had a feeling you would answer in that way.

 

[1213]

...The NT does not meet the requirements of Torath ...

Please tell, what are those requirements and why?

 

[1213]

I'm not sure if this qualifies, but, look in the lexicon for the hebrew word for "to guard". You'll see that Jewish people are instructed to guard the covenant made with God as described in the text. Guarding it means taking active measures to prevent the covenant from being broken or forgotten. This guarding of the covenant is unique in Torah.

Ok, thank you, I think that is not bad, and I don’t think NT is in anyway against it. But, I would like to know, do they, or you believe what Jeremiah says?

Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
Jeremiah 31:31-34

According to the Jeremiah 31:31-34, Jews broke already the covenant. And I think proof for that they broke it is these:

'But if you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; and if you shall reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant; I also will do this to you: I will appoint terror over you, even consumption and fever, that shall consume the eyes, and make the soul to pine away; and you will sow your seed in vain, for your enemies will eat it.
Leviticus 26:14-16

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

And because of that, there is the new covenant promised, as Jeremiah tells. And the same idea is confirmed also in this:

Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
Deuteronomy 30:6-9

Do Jews believe in that new covenant?

 

[1213]

...Also, NT authorship claims come from the Church Fathers who were neither Jews nor did they claim to have learned from Jews. Torah authorship claims comes from Jews and was done by a Jew. ...

Thanks for your answer. I think that is an interesting claim. For example, Paul was a Jew and lot of NT is written by him. Jesus was also a Jew and his original disciples were Jews. If you don’t believe that, you could as well not believe that Torah authorship really comes from the Jews. And in Biblical point of view, all who are disciples of Jesus (“Christians”), become Jews also, because in them is fulfilled the new covenant that was promised in Deuteronomy 30:6-9 and Jeremiah 31:31-34.

I would like to hear, do you, or Jews generally believe that are Deuteronomy 30:6-9 and Jeremiah 31:31-34 are true/correct?

Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
Jeremiah 31:31-34

Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
Deuteronomy 30:6-9

 

[dybmh]

Ok, thank you, I think that is not bad, and I don’t think NT is in anyway against it. But, I would like to know, do they, or you believe what Jeremiah says?

Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
Jeremiah 31:31-34

According to the Jeremiah 31:31-34, Jews broke already the covenant. And I think proof for that they broke it is these:

'But if you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; and if you shall reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant; I also will do this to you: I will appoint terror over you, even consumption and fever, that shall consume the eyes, and make the soul to pine away; and you will sow your seed in vain, for your enemies will eat it.
Leviticus 26:14-16

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

And because of that, there is the new covenant promised, as Jeremiah tells. And the same idea is confirmed also in this:

Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
Deuteronomy 30:6-9

Do Jews believe in that new covenant?

Regarding breaking the covenant, God maintains it even when the Jewish people break it. That's in Lev 26.

Regarding the new covenant, I can only speak for myself. Yes. I beleive that what is listed in Jeremiah is possible. But the details are beyond me.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Thanks for your answer. I think that is an interesting claim. For example, Paul was a Jew and lot of NT is written by him.

Greetings,

So, let's explore this a bit. If Paul was a Jew, as is claimed in the NT, what was his father's and grandfather's names? I don't see any information from a valid Jewish, non-Christian, 1st to 2nd century source that gives any history on Paul's family confirming that he was recognized as a part of a Jewish community and that he was Torah based.

What I do know is that certain Christian sects such as the Ebionites considered Paul a heretic to both the Torah and to the Ebionite form of Christianity. According to Origen they viewed Paul as an "apostate from the law". Further, Epiphanius relates that the Ebionites opposed Paul, who they saw as responsible for the idea that Gentile Christians did not have to be circumcised or follow the Law of Moses, and named him an apostate. Epiphanius further relates that some Ebionites alleged that Paul was a Greek who converted to Judaism in order to marry the daughter of a high priest of Israel, but apostatized when she rejected him. This is according to Irenaeus of Lyon, Adversus Haereses I, 26; III,21 and Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 30.16.6–9

Further, Paul's writings are filled with information that reflects a Hellonist background and not a Torath Mosheh one - especially given the nature of the type of Greek that the NT is written in.

Also, the choice of letters written by Paul to be "Christian" scriptures and not just plain letters was not a decision made by Jews. It was made by non-Jewish Christian leaders.

What this means, from a Torath Mosheh perspective, is that whoever Paul was Jewish or not - he was not someone that Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews listen to. The author acts is also not a valid source of information to go by per Torath Mosheh standards and neither or the Church leadership that collected and canonized Paul's writings.

Jesus was also a Jew and his original disciples were Jews.

That is the claim of the NT authors. They are not valid sources for whether or not Jesus and his followers were halakhically Jewish nor are they valid sources for the history of Jesus and his followers.

If you want to know more about what I mean by that, see the following thread I did on this topic.

Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity

If you don’t believe that, you could as well not believe that Torah authorship really comes from the Jews.

In order to understand why we Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews hold by the authorship of the Torah you view the following videos I did on that topic.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXECa6N2EVJXImK1wGbwAQnGGeVPia6aE

In short, Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews throughout history and even today are descendents of the those who witnessed the events that produced the Torah and also those Jews who authored the Tanakh. There are no identifiable Jews who today claim descent from Jesus, Jesus's students, nor Paul. Thus, the Torah is not compariable to the NT.

We Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews have an internal system for determining who is a valid Torah based Jew and what information meets the standards of for our consideration. It is called a (מסורת). The NT does not meet these standards - the Tanakh does.

You could even consider that even Christians claim that the Torah is a valid text, that says something.

And in Biblical point of view, all who are disciples of Jesus (“Christians”), become Jews also, because in them is fulfilled the new covenant that was promised in Deuteronomy 30:6-9 and Jeremiah 31:31-34.

That is the Christian view based on Greek and English NT texts. This is a theology that is not from Torath Mosheh.

I would like to hear, do you, or Jews generally believe that are Deuteronomy 30:6-9 and Jeremiah 31:31-34 are true/correct?

The quick way to understand how Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews understand any part of the Tanakh you have to take the following steps.

1. We take the oldest Hebrew texts.
2. We read the entire text from start to finish, in Hebrew.
3. We don't come to conlusions on one verse w/o reading everything that proceeds it and everything that comes after it.
4. We take out all available Hebrew/Aramaic texts throughout Jewish history that discuss that verse and everything that proceeds it and everything that comes after it.

If you like, I have made an on open offer to various people who have similar questions. That offer is where we do a Zoom or a Skype where we take the Hebrew text w/o translation Jewish or Christian and we go through questionable verses starting at everything that proceeds it and everything that comes after it and see what the Hebrew text says.

In about 10 minutes you would see where we Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews are coming from. Would you be willing to do something like that?

If not, the following videos may help you a bit.

I hope that helps.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Please tell, what are those requirements and why?

I cover that issue in this thread.

Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity

Specifically on this section, page 2 of the above thread, of that thread is where I delve into that in a lot of detail.

Simple Reasons Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus and Christianity (Page 2)

This video, in short, covers that a bit.

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

@Ehav4Ever

I watched those two videos you posted in the above post. Remarkably insightful. Thank you for the Jewish side. I actually did get my books out and read some commentaries, as well as compare the passage of Jeremiah with Hebrews. I do believe you get a point on this debate. Hebrews simply changes what Jeremiah said and ignores the entire historical context. Now, I'm not Jewish, and I'm not debating or worrying about winning points, I am simply learning, and here I can say you have taught me something well worth knowing. Thanks man!

 

[ToGodorNottoGod]

@Ehav4Ever
I will also confess I was rather blown away that one of my favorite sources for exegesis and analysis from a Christian view, being G. K. Beale, D. A. Carson, "Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament," Baker Academic Books, 2006: 972 barely discussed Jeremiah at all, but swiftly and rather cheaply got to the Hebrews point of view and bring in Christ as fast as possible with minimal Jeremiah context. Yes they go to the Qumran materials, which as precious little to do with how Hebrews changed up Jeremiah.This, to me, was disappointing. I had the impression through the years that this book was fairly decent. So you have opened my eyes twice now with the videos.

Edit: Aha.... on pg. 972 of Beale and Carson I found where it is the LXX which says "I did not care for them," instead of the Hebrew of Jeremiah "I was a husband to them." So Hebrews followed the LXX instead of the Hebrew. That is why the discrepancy. Yet they also note that in the Targum of Jeremiah, it says "Although I took pleasure in them." So, it appears that the author of Hebrews went with the LXX instead of the Hebrew, and thus the difference between Hebrews and Jeremiah.
Although, interestingly, my Kohlenberger Triglot translates it out as "though I was an husband to them," with a variant of "or was their master." (NIV Triglot Old Testament, Zondervan, 1981)

The two commentaries on Hebrews Craig R. Koester, "Hebrews" Anchor Bible, (2001) and George Wesley Buchann, "To the Hebrews," Anchor Bible, (1972) are even more spotty on Jeremiah! Gadzooks.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

@Ehav4Ever

I watched those two videos you posted in the above post. Remarkably insightful. Thank you for the Jewish side. I actually did get my books out and read some commentaries, as well as compare the passage of Jeremiah with Hebrews. I do believe you get a point on this debate. Hebrews simply changes what Jeremiah said and ignores the entire historical context. Now, I'm not Jewish, and I'm not debating or worrying about winning points, I am simply learning, and here I can say you have taught me something well worth knowing. Thanks man!

I really admire your honesty. Thank you for posting that.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I am simply learning, and here I can say you have taught me something well worth knowing. Thanks man!

Great to hear. This is the reason that I have been offering people who are interested to go through these issues in a short Zoom using only the Hebrew Tanakh. It makes all the issues more clear and helps people make better informed decisions.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Edit: Aha.... on pg. 972 of Beale and Carson I found where it is the LXX which says "I did not care for them," instead of the Hebrew of Jeremiah "I was a husband to them." So Hebrews followed the LXX instead of the Hebrew. That is why the discrepancy. Yet they also note that in the Targum of Jeremiah, it says "Although I took pleasure in them." So, it appears that the author of Hebrews went with the LXX instead of the Hebrew, and thus the difference between Hebrews and Jeremiah.

Great point.

An important note here is that the LXX that is used by Christians was a translation created by Christians and not from Jews. The original LXX that, according to legend, was produced by Jews for Ptolemy II Philadelphus was only of the Torah and nothing else. Those copies the Torah translation did not survive the destruction of the library of Alexandria and the LXX that has been in use by Christians for the last about 2,000 years were produced by Christian translators. So, it makes perfect sense that the Greek text of Hebrews closely resemebles the LXX touted by the early Church. Which is strange given that the author/or someone chose the name Hebrews for a text written in Greek.

Jews don't use the LXX and any Greek translations that Jews would have made in the past for non-Hebrew speaking communities did not survive with time because they were not popular.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Got it. I had a feeling you would answer in that way.

Would you like three dozen verses and passages as to why Torah is superior to commentary on Torah?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Would you like three dozen verses and passages as to why Torah is superior to commentary on Torah?

Only if you provide it ONLY in Hebrew w/o English translation and it is provided with the entire chapter it comes from for context. For exmaple, provide it to me from a Torah scroll, like I have provided below, and I will look at it. I.e. take a picture of the Torah scroll you use at home or is used in your "community" and I wil l review everything you provide, given that it is in the format I am requesting. Cheers.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The following videos may help concerning the statements I made about Paul.

 

[Clear]

IF ORIGINAL OLD TESTAMENT TEXTS WERE NOT WRITTEN IN HEBREW, WHY THE INSISTENCE TO RELY ON A TRANSLATION IN HEBREW?

@BilliardsBall said : "Would you like three dozen verses and passages as to why Torah is superior to commentary on Torah?" (post #116)
Ehav4Ever said : "Only if you provide it ONLY in Hebrew w/o English translation and it is provided with the entire chapter it comes from for context (post #117)

Hi @Ehav4Ever

Since the earliest source texts for the old testament were not written in national hebrew, but instead were translated into Hebrew, I do not understand why you insist that individuals must give you data in Hebrew. For example, if billiardsball offers you his verses from the LXX which is the older and more original text, why cannot billiardsball offer the verses in a more original language?

I do not see the reason to provide data in untranslated Hebrew except perhaps it is a requirement of your religious tradition?

Can you explain why a translation made into Hebrew has advantage over a more ancient and more original translation made into greek.

Thanks in advance for any insight you can provide on this point.


A second question regarding the O.P. itself. If one applies the principles of "inclusion" or "exclusion' to the Old Testament / Tanakh, that you are applying to the New Testament, what books of the Old Testament can qualify for acceptance?

Perhaps I do not understand your personal principles of why you think one specific text is inspired of God (and therefore sacred) and another is not?

Can you give insight on this question?



Clear
ειφιφυφιω

 

[1213]

...Regarding the new covenant, I can only speak for myself. Yes. I beleive that what is listed in Jeremiah is possible. But the details are beyond me.

Ok, thanks. I think it came true in Jesus and his disciples (“Christians”).