Why the trinity is false

[exchemist]

I agree with you there are many points to consider.. I will look at each one and find an answer i think satisfies each one but I will look for the answer from Jesus and the apostles not from something I believe to be true.. I think my opinion or the opinion of those that came after the Bible was written is not important!

OK but, regarding the phrase in red, I do not see how you can do that without forming a belief of your own as a result of your consideration. It is inevitable, surely, that the human mind will try to draw some form of conclusion, as a result of information received, is it not? So that then becomes your belief, doesn't it? Or do you keep what you have learnt at arms length, as it were, without endorsing it?

 

[Fool]

bla

That says: "Do you not know that you are a sanctuary of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in you?".

I don't think it means self-condemnation. But, obviously, blasphemy against the spirit can be seen as self-condemnation, because by doing that, it can be seen that one condemns himself.

blasphemy of the holy spirit is self-condemnation of what dwells within self.

a dualist would believe they are two separate things and thus condemn self in ignorance of something about self

 

[walt]

The Truth Can Set You Free
One day, in Jerusalem, Jesus was talking about his Father, and exposing the false religious leaders of his day. (John 8:12-30) What he stated on that occasion teaches us how to examine popular beliefs about God today. Jesus said: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”—John 8:31, 32.

“Remain in my word.” Here Jesus sets the standard for evaluating whether religious teachings are “the truth.” When you hear a statement about God, ask yourself, ‘Does this harmonize with Jesus’ words and the rest of the Holy Scriptures?’ Imitate those who heard the apostle Paul speak and who were “carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things [the things they were learning] were so.”—Acts 17:11.
"what I believe" First I Pray then I look to see what Jesus says, Second I look to see what the apostles say and all the Holy scriptures and I keep reading scriptures until they are in full agreement.Then after all that I form my belief trying my best to do what Jesus says specifically.

 

[exchemist]

The Truth Can Set You Free
One day, in Jerusalem, Jesus was talking about his Father, and exposing the false religious leaders of his day. (John 8:12-30) What he stated on that occasion teaches us how to examine popular beliefs about God today. Jesus said: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”—John 8:31, 32.

“Remain in my word.” Here Jesus sets the standard for evaluating whether religious teachings are “the truth.” When you hear a statement about God, ask yourself, ‘Does this harmonize with Jesus’ words and the rest of the Holy Scriptures?’ Imitate those who heard the apostle Paul speak and who were “carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things [the things they were learning] were so.”—Acts 17:11.

"Before Abraham was, I AM".

 

[Firenze]

God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through? Numbers 23:19

I believe this verse prove the trinity is wrong.

Jesus was also a Jew. He prayed to God the father, Jahve. He believed in strong monotheism

What do you think?

I always found this sufficient to show the trinity is a fraud.

The Trinity Forgery

skepticalviewsofchristianity.com

 

[exchemist]

I always found this sufficient to show the trinity is a fraud.

The Trinity Forgery

skepticalviewsofchristianity.com

Ah yes the Johannine Comma. But while this suggests a phrase about the Trinity may have been added to an epistle of St John in the c.4th, that does not render the concept false. It was part of the theology of the early church before that.

 

[Dimi95]

I always found this sufficient to show the trinity is a fraud.

The Trinity Forgery

skepticalviewsofchristianity.com

I always find John 20:24-29 to show the oposite

"Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came.So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you!'Then he said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.'
Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'
Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed'. "

 

[walt]

"Before Abraham was, I AM".

Anderson(i) 58 Jesus said to them: Verily, verily I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I was.
Noyes(i) 58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly do I say to you, From before Abraham was, I have been.
Twentieth_Century(i) 58 "In truth I tell you," replied Jesus, "before Abraham existed I was."
Moffatt(i) 58 "Truly, truly I tell you," said Jesus, "I have existed before Abraham was born."
Goodspeed(i) 58 Jesus said to them, "I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born!"

 

[exchemist]

Anderson(i) 58 Jesus said to them: Verily, verily I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I was.
Noyes(i) 58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly do I say to you, From before Abraham was, I have been.
Twentieth_Century(i) 58 "In truth I tell you," replied Jesus, "before Abraham existed I was."
Moffatt(i) 58 "Truly, truly I tell you," said Jesus, "I have existed before Abraham was born."
Goodspeed(i) 58 Jesus said to them, "I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born!"

Not sure where you get these weirdo references from, but even "before Abraham was I have been", or whatever, it indicates Jesus claiming to be an eternal being. And this claim - to be God - is why the listeners picked up rocks to stone him.

 

[Rival]

Anderson(i) 58 Jesus said to them: Verily, verily I say to you, before Abraham came into being, I was.
Noyes(i) 58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly do I say to you, From before Abraham was, I have been.
Twentieth_Century(i) 58 "In truth I tell you," replied Jesus, "before Abraham existed I was."
Moffatt(i) 58 "Truly, truly I tell you," said Jesus, "I have existed before Abraham was born."
Goodspeed(i) 58 Jesus said to them, "I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born!"

Greek: Ego eimi (Ego = I, eimi = am), ἐγώ εἰμι.

The name of God.

 

[Dimi95]

Revelation 22 also shows that Jesus claims to be God.

If we use transitivity , Revelation 21 shows who is speaking.

Revelation 21:5-6
"He who was seated on the throne said, 'I am making everything new!' Then he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.'
He said to me: 'It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End'. "

Revelation 22:12-16
"Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
'Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city'.Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
'I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

 

[Firenze]

Ah yes the Johannine Comma. But while this suggests a phrase about the Trinity may have been added to an epistle of St John in the c.4th, that does not render the concept false. It was part of the theology of the early church before that.

But it does indicate that the concept was not scriptural to begin with. I believe that’s why there was so much conflict in the early church about it. It appears to me to be a lame attempt to appeal to the early pagans that grew up with the concept of many gods. As a marketing ploy, it appears to have been successful.

 

[walt]

I always find John 20:24-29 to show the oposite

"Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came.So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you!'Then he said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.'
Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'
Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed'. "

Jesus is The Mighty God prophesied to be born from Isaiah 9:6 the Apostle Thomas is correct in calling Jesus my Lord my God? The Bible calls God The Almighty, Indicating He is The Supreme Being above all other gods.. Angels, Moses, Apostle Paul and Judges are all called god's in the Bible.

John 10:34-36: Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came-and Scripture cannot be broken- 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Here Jesus cites Psalm 82:6 “I have said, ‘You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High.

Besides is Thomas referring to 3 people equal to each other being one God? No.

 

[Rival]

But it does indicate that the concept was not scriptural to begin with. I believe that’s why there was so much conflict in the early church about it. It appears to me to be a lame attempt to appeal to the early pagans that grew up with the concept of many gods. As a marketing ploy, it appears to have been successful.

This is just... not the case at all.

It's a way to make sense out the early worship of Christ.

Why the hell must everything be PAGAANANN!!!!!!!

Seriously. It's not.

 

[Firenze]

Jesus is The Mighty God prophesied to be born from Isaiah 9:6….

But that verse loses all force when it is constantly linked to the false virgin birth ‘prophecy’ of Is 7:14.

 

[Firenze]

This is just... not the case at all.

It's a way to make sense out the early worship of Christ.

Why the hell must everything be PAGAANANN!!!!!!!

Seriously. It's not.

If you say so…

 

[exchemist]

But it does indicate that the concept was not scriptural to begin with. I believe that’s why there was so much conflict in the early church about it. It appears to me to be a lame attempt to appeal to the early pagans that grew up with the concept of many gods. As a marketing ploy, it appears to have been successful.

Well the divinity of Christ is pretty unambiguous in St. John’s gospel, though I grant you the full theology of the Trinity was obviously worked out later.

But a lot of doctrine was worked out later by the early church. Original Sin and the Fall, the various doctrines of the Atonement ( I think there are four) …….a lot of these things are not explicit in scripture, but are interpretations.

 

[Rival]

If you say so…

These arguments show a lack of understanding of Classical Paganism as well as early Christianity. It baffles me as to why unbelievers always go to the Pagan arguments when Christianity was as opposite to Paganism as possible. You need only read the letters being sent to the churches which record how far they are from their former ways.

Historic Pagans were baffled by Christianity. They didn't understand why they reversed the dominance order (i.e. why are they so proud of including women, slaves, poor people etc.)

Christians refused to engage in Pagan practices such as throwing unwanted and disabled children on garbage dumps, for example.

They wouldn't honour the Emperor with sacrifices.

They were killed for not engaging in Pagan activities.

So why these arguments keep cropping up as anyone's guess. Why would they start using Pagan theology to appeal to Pagans when everything else they threw out?

It's absolute nonsense and it's completely basic.

 

[walt]

I think there is endless amounts of scriptures we could say support or do not support the Trinity, but isn't the bottom line are we putting faith in what Jesus words he took the time to give us? He talked to the apostles and asked them who are people saying that I am? Peter says the Son of God, Jesus agrees with Peter that the father revealed this to him. Jesus explains in chapter 17 of John who the father, is the one true God. Just think what we would believe if we just listed everything Jesus says and nothing else was on our list? Would it not be like if Jesus was standing right next to you talking to you? Giving his sound advice to you and me.

 

[Dimi95]

Jesus is The Mighty God prophesied to be born from Isaiah 9:6 the Apostle Thomas is correct in calling Jesus my Lord my God? The Bible calls God The Almighty, Indicating He is The Supreme Being above all other gods.. Angels, Moses, Apostle Paul and Judges are all called god's in the Bible.

Malachi 3
"I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the Lord Almighty.

it follows

Mark 1:1-3
"The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah,the Son of God,as it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
'I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way'."

It is not written only in Isaiah the prophet , as it seems..

John 10:34-36
"Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came-and Scripture cannot be broken- 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

Here Jesus cites Psalm 82:6 “I have said, ‘You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High.

There is only one detail you are missing

1 Corinthians 15:47
"The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven."

Besides is Thomas referring to 3 people equal to each other being one God? No.

"God is not a man , that he should lie"