Why the Worship of Ancient Greece and Rome?

[amorphous_constellation]

That Greece and Rome were better and the Middle Ages were some sort of millennia long mistake wherein nothing good really happened.

So in those places, when they were pagan, how was it that Judaism was allowed to spread as a legal religion, and presumably a variety of other religions were as well? I'm not sure if it would be proper contrast point, as some of my history is still poor, but for example, Julian the 'Apostate,' supposedly a pagan, was trying to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. Why was he doing that, was it some kind of a recognition of a kind of a meta-henotheism, on the part of the polytheist?

 

[Watchmen]

Um, the Ottoman Empire didn't exist at that time. It was Christian Byzantium.

Correct. I misspoke. It was the Byzantine Empire in the Dark Ages. But my statement about the Ottoman Empire is correct (ie, that they preserved Greek and Roman history, art, etc).

 

[Rival]

So in those places, when they were pagan, how was it that Judaism was allowed to spread as a legal religion

Because it was 'religio' not 'superstitio' - that is, it was ancient and thus had pedigree; but you need only read how Greece and Rome tried to force them to Hellenise and Romanise, then martyred them for not bringing sacrifices and worshipping the emperor that this was not such a great settlement. I mean, it was Rome that sacked the Second Temple and sent the Jews into their 2000 year exile.

 

[Rival]

Correct. I misspoke. It was the Byzantine Empire in the Dark Ages. But my statement about the Ottoman Empire is correct (ie, that they preserved Greek and Roman history, art, etc).

Western Europe was not exactly made of up illiterate barbarians though, which is exactly the myth I'm trying to put to bed.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Because it was 'religio' not 'superstitio' - that is, it was ancient and thus had pedigree; but you need only read how Greece and Rome tried to force them to Hellenise and Romanise, then martyred them for not bringing sacrifices and worshipping the emperor that this was not such a great settlement. I mean, it was Rome that sacked the Second Temple and sent the Jews into their 2000 year exile.

Well exploring all of that is certainly worth reading a book over, just to figure out exactly what the motivations were with that. One wonders if it even had much public support? Supposedly there were some among the populace who must have got along with Jews, if they were allowed to have synagogues around. Was the conquering and dissension about economics, politics, or religion? Also, this was a time when power seemed to be consolidated in a series of weak character'd princeps, after the fall of distributed power in the republic there, if I'm not mistaken

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Go far enuf back in time, & things get more romanticized.
Just look at Vikings....thieves, murderers, slavers...yet
people ignore all that in favor of manly explorers.

What was manly about the vikings? Some were explorers, but most where *****es who preyed on the weak. Seriously, they raided monasteries and picked on monks amd nuns. And to confuse things further, most of us Euro-Americans glorifying them isn't much different than Jews glorifying the Nazis in a thousand years.
How does this work? We could honor those who sought peace, but instead we honor warmongers, but only the ones we like. America went from hardcore loving the Hitler and the Nazis (true fact, some are buried on American soil with gravestones honoring their sacrifice to the Third Reich) to hardcore hating him, so seriously what gives?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well exploring all of that is certainly worth reading a book over, just to figure out exactly what the motivations were with that. One wonders if it even had much public support? Supposedly there were some among the populace who must have got along with Jews, if they were allowed to have synagogues around. Was the conquering and dissension about economics, politics, or religion? Also, this was a time when power seemed to be consolidated in a series of weak character'd princeps, after the fall of distributed power in the republic there, if I'm not mistaken

Rome took whatever they wanted because it's what those who lust for power often to. They don't ask, they don't say please, they show up with a legion of armored men, kidnap kids, kill anyone who tries to interfere, and they say this is all mine.
As for power, there were many tribes still then, many independent city states, not a lot of consolidation unless someone like Rome decided to take it all. Even the Greeks lacked a centralized power and the independent city-states often made war with each other. But it wasn't Greek vs Greek as we'd see it, it was Athenians against Spartans against Corinthians against Thebans.

 

[Augustus]

Correct. I misspoke. It was the Byzantine Empire in the Dark Ages. But my statement about the Ottoman Empire is correct (ie, that they preserved Greek and Roman history, art, etc).

You mean post conquest of Constantinople? (Which was during "The Renaissance" anyway)

They destroyed a fair amount of it, and defaced the Hagia Sofia.

Fair enough, that's what conquerers often do, but wouldn't be holding them up as paragons of virtue.

If you mean the more general "Muslims saved Western intellectual history", it's pretty much a myth.

The Arabic world certainly contributed new advances based on these texts which deserves credit, they 'saved' precisely zero texts though as no texts exist purely from being retranslated back from Arabic to Greek.

They were saved by the Greeks.

 

[Kooky]

Nazi Germany didn't. East Germany and West Germany don't even exist more, with the modern state of Germany today enjoying the longest period of boarder stability that "Germany" has ever known (Germany itself as we know it and understand it today hasn't even been around that long).
Or to put it in perspective, even I'm older than the nation of Germany.

It's a bit ridiculous to claim that the current government of Germany has no continuety with the former governments of Germany, especially the 1949 Federal Republic whose name it still carries and whose constitution it still upholds.

 

[Kooky]

The medieval Romans did plenty of destroying themselves, of course, because that's what happens in a society that sees no intrinsic value in the preservation of embarassing old texts when vellum is precious and you'd rather copy a text with considerably more prestige or spiritual quality over it.

A lot of "preservation" happened via palimpsests, i.e. by writing over these old texts because they were no longer needed or seen as valuable, and it was modern historians who did the actual preserving with modern technology that allowed them to actually look at what had been written over by medieval monks and scribes.

 

[Kooky]

The point is if Germany had won WWII it would be admired for it technological advances. The atrocities more pushed under the rug.

Was the Soviet Union admired for its technological advances in the 1980s, and were its atrocities pushed under the rug?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's a bit ridiculous to claim that the current government of Germany has no continuety with the former governments of Germany, especially the 1949 Federal Republic whose name it still carries and whose constitution it still upholds.

It has a weird and loose continuity. As far as "Germany" goes, there was the Holy Roman Empire and then there was the German Confederation in 1815. There was the German Empire for awhile. This was back when Prussia was still a main power player. Amd the German Empire highlighted they were Germany without Austria (because the Confederation included way more than Germany). The Great War happened, Germany was made to give up territory, and the Weimar Republic came to be. Then the Nazis came and fell amd then Germany was split into West and East Germany. And then in 1990 the modern state of Germany came into existence.
It has more continuity than Poland, but not a solid continuity like England.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Apparently, the notion of horned helmets is one of those annoying myths.........

Actually from pre-Roman Britain. And not real horns. Cool though.

 

[exchemist]

View attachment 58948


Actually from pre-Roman Britain. And not real horns. Cool though.

So Celtic, then, as opposed to Viking. But interesting anyway.

 

[RestlessSoul]

So Celtic, then, as opposed to Viking. But interesting anyway.

Yeah, not Viking, and purely ceremonial anyway. Found in the Thames at Waterloo and thought, like the Battersea shield, to be an offering to the River Gods.

 

[Revoltingest]

What was manly about the vikings? Some were explorers, but most where *****es who preyed on the weak. Seriously, they raided monasteries and picked on monks amd nuns. And to confuse things further, most of us Euro-Americans glorifying them isn't much different than Jews glorifying the Nazis in a thousand years.
How does this work? We could honor those who sought peace, but instead we honor warmongers, but only the ones we like. America went from hardcore loving the Hitler and the Nazis (true fact, some are buried on American soil with gravestones honoring their sacrifice to the Third Reich) to hardcore hating him, so seriously what gives?

People are fickle & irrational.

 

[Nakosis]

Was the Soviet Union admired for its technological advances in the 1980s, and were its atrocities pushed under the rug?

Maybe, if it out paces the US in technology.
That is the current concern with Russia and China.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Rome took whatever they wanted because it's what those who lust for power often to. They don't ask, they don't say please, they show up with a legion of armored men, kidnap kids, kill anyone who tries to interfere, and they say this is all mine.
As for power, there were many tribes still then, many independent city states, not a lot of consolidation unless someone like Rome decided to take it all. Even the Greeks lacked a centralized power and the independent city-states often made war with each other. But it wasn't Greek vs Greek as we'd see it, it was Athenians against Spartans against Corinthians against Thebans.

Well I don't know if I want to paint all those people with such a broad brush. I don't know that I'd want somebody 2000 years from now to paint me that way, as a american. There were Romans and romans, I'm sure, just like there are Americans and americans. I'm sure there were powerful warhawks, and peaceful peasants, and everything in-between. I get a pretty cosmopolitan sense of Rome when I do read on it sometimes, brutal incidents aside.

What was manly about the vikings? Some were explorers, but most where *****es who preyed on the weak. Seriously, they raided monasteries and picked on monks amd nuns. And to confuse things further, most of us Euro-Americans glorifying them isn't much different than Jews glorifying the Nazis in a thousand years.

Well all I know is that they are interesting to read about, because there is a good hunk of non-Abrahamic written material to look at with them. As well, I'm not even sure that their myths contain much which is better or worse morally than what you get in the bible. I don't think I read anything in there was quite as bad as Deuteronomy 13, for example.

And I read bede, so I can point out a couple spots in there where the christians are described doing things that pretty comparable to anything the vikings may have done. For example, in book IV of the Ecclesiastical History of England, chapter 16 is entitled "How the Isle of Wight received Christian inhabitants, and two royal youths of that island were killed immediately after Baptism."

As far as any ancient religion or wisdom tradition goes, I am unattached directly to any of that, but see that there are little nuggets of ideas here or there, that can endure or be reinterpreted. And those good ideas can come from almost anywhere. Plenty of secular people probably like something about the book of Job. There are some good sayings in the Norse Havamal, if you discard the few that might be about war. Seneca, the teacher or Nero, was great souled, and didn't share Nero's tyrant attitude about things.

 

[metis]

These societies were horrible to 90% of the folks who lived in them, so why does Western society glorify them so much?

Maybe like Trump, many admire "strong leaders"?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Maybe, if it out paces the US in technology.
That is the current concern with Russia and China.

Russia was starting to outpace America during the Cold War. Such as, Russia was way ahead and winning the Space Race until America came from behind by putting people on the moon.