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Why there are Always More Conservatives than Liberals?

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
It is good to see the moral majority is still alive and well. The 1950's were some good times and the common person could get ahead. The 60's were pretty cool as well.

All I have to say about Obama is to quote Bill Cinton, "It's about the economy stupid". Minimum wage jobs are not going to save the country. Until we start manufacturing stuff again and pay a living wage our economy will remain in the toliet.

Think about before the bubble burst, construction jobs could not be imported and houses were built in America.

Health insurance costs more than a new car or a simple house. Instead of giving people health insurance lets give everyone a house and a car. It would be cheaper and then folks could afford to buy their own health care out of pocket. Screw the insurance companies, they are worse than the banks and the government!
 

Alceste

Vagabond
It is good to see the moral majority is still alive and well. The 1950's were some good times and the common person could get ahead. The 60's were pretty cool as well.

All I have to say about Obama is to quote Bill Cinton, "It's about the economy stupid". Minimum wage jobs are not going to save the country. Until we start manufacturing stuff again and pay a living wage our economy will remain in the toliet.

Think about before the bubble burst, construction jobs could not be imported and houses were built in America.

Health insurance costs more than a new car or a simple house. Instead of giving people health insurance lets give everyone a house and a car. It would be cheaper and then folks could afford to buy their own health care out of pocket. Screw the insurance companies, they are worse than the banks and the government!

In paragraph two, it sounds like you support a living wage but reject increases to the minimum wage. Did I read that right, or can you clarify your meaning?
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Minimum wage jobs are mostly service jobs. There is not a very big profit margin to support a living wage, otherwise we would have 15 dollar big macs. We need entry level jobs people can work at for their first job.

Most of the people currently working these jobs are underemployed and need a better job that pays a living wage. No need to raise the minimum wage, we need better jobs that pay well.

More pay for a crappy job is not the answer.
 

Uberpod

Active Member
Minimum wage jobs are mostly service jobs. There is not a very big profit margin to support a living wage, otherwise we would have 15 dollar big macs. We need entry level jobs people can work at for their first job.

Most of the people currently working these jobs are underemployed and need a better job that pays a living wage. No need to raise the minimum wage, we need better jobs that pay well.

More pay for a crappy job is not the answer.
It is a temporary answer when more skilled jobs are not available in sufficient numbers. It's very easy to tell a capsized man to just swim perched on you motorboat.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I guess they don't want to go back to Ike, then. Sounds like Ike would be considered a raging commie socialist heathen by today's crowd of conservatives.
So would that right-wing Republican (at the time), Nixon, not to mention the Republican icon, Reagan.

Minimum wage jobs are mostly service jobs. There is not a very big profit margin to support a living wage, otherwise we would have 15 dollar big macs. We need entry level jobs people can work at for their first job.

Most of the people currently working these jobs are underemployed and need a better job that pays a living wage. No need to raise the minimum wage, we need better jobs that pay well.

More pay for a crappy job is not the answer.
Yet most economists would disagree, and back when the minimum wage was >$10/h the economy was booming and Big Macs perfectly affordable.
EconomicPolicyJournal.com: List of "Economists" Who Are Calling for an Increase in the Minimum Wage
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
An relevant article from yesterday's Guardian about why consevatives are so successful at promoting what polls indicate are unpopular ideas, why "moderate" is constantly creeping right, and why liberals don't have a clue:
George Lakoff: 'Conservatives don't follow the*polls, they want to*change them

George Lakoff: 'Conservatives don't follow the polls, they want to change them … Liberals do everything wrong'
How the progressives have got it wrong and if they don't start to get it right, the conservatives will maintain the upperhand

"The progressive mindset is screwing up the world. The progressive mindset is guaranteeing no progress on global warming. The progressive mindset is saying, 'Yes, fracking is fine.' The progressive mindset is saying, 'Yes, genetically modified organisms are OK', when, in fact, they're horrible, and the progressive mindset doesn't know how to describe how horrible they are. There's a difference between progressive morality, which is great, and the progressive mindset, which is half OK and half awful."

Silly liberals. They think voters are motivated by facts, that given the pertinent facts they'll actually use them to make rational choices.
rolling.gif
 
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MD

qualiaphile
The older I get the more conservative I become, especially fiscally.

Many of my friends are following the same route. We don't care about gay marriage or legalization of marijuana, but we have seen way too many abuses of socialist systems and realize they're deeply flawed and cannot work with the current human psyche.

Too much depravity in the media as well, with the Kardashians and Miley Cyrus (liberal Hollywood) getting more attention than the South China Sea and Syria. I've also seen a few abortions and definitely believe that viability of fetal life is important.

I mean don't get me wrong, I have a lot of issues with conservative media and politicians as well, religious fundamentalism and poor foreign policy to name a few. However, I would say I'm more centre right than conservative, but this is a stark contrast frmo 5 years ago when I was center left.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Minimum wage jobs are mostly service jobs. There is not a very big profit margin to support a living wage, otherwise we would have 15 dollar big macs. We need entry level jobs people can work at for their first job.

Most of the people currently working these jobs are underemployed and need a better job that pays a living wage. No need to raise the minimum wage, we need better jobs that pay well.

More pay for a crappy job is not the answer.

Here's something that might be of interest on that topic...comparison of US and Australian McDonalds wage versus cost of living.

Can You Live On A McDonald's Wage In Australia? | Lifehacker Australia

Since the impact of this on the price of food is a consideration, consider the following;

Interactive currency-comparison tool: The Big Mac index | The Economist

Increased minimum wage isn't a means of fixing an economy, to my mind, it's potentially a means of closing the gap between haves and have nots to some small extent, and perhaps more importantly a means of protecting people less able to protect themselves.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
There are a great deal of Moderates who tend to vote liberal on most issues. For example for the first time ever it is estimated that more than 50% of Americans support Same sex marriage equality. More than 50% support marijuana legalization. Everyone wants to fix the tax code but in a plutocracy that won't happen.

Religious rates are slowly (very slowly) dropping in the US. Liberal ideology is slowly growing and some of the conservative ideology is shrinking. My guess is that in 10 years from now unless something major happens there will be more liberals than conservatives. More and more young people are atheists now (somewhat due to the internet and more specifically reddit) and a lot of the elder population is the religious conservative type. In 10-15 years a lot of them will either die or become incapable of getting up and voting while in 10-15 years our 5 year olds that are growing up with a lot of liberal influence will probably vote in a liberal way.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
There are a great deal of Moderates who tend to vote liberal on most issues. For example for the first time ever it is estimated that more than 50% of Americans support Same sex marriage equality. More than 50% support marijuana legalization. Everyone wants to fix the tax code but in a plutocracy that won't happen.

Religious rates are slowly (very slowly) dropping in the US. Liberal ideology is slowly growing and some of the conservative ideology is shrinking. My guess is that in 10 years from now unless something major happens there will be more liberals than conservatives. More and more young people are atheists now (somewhat due to the internet and more specifically reddit) and a lot of the elder population is the religious conservative type. In 10-15 years a lot of them will either die or become incapable of getting up and voting while in 10-15 years our 5 year olds that are growing up with a lot of liberal influence will probably vote in a liberal way.

Couple of very quick thoughts in relation to this...

1) This kinda supposes that there isn't a drift towards conservatism as one gets older. I'm not convinced on that, either way.

2) Conservative is a subjective statement. I'm kinda guessing the percentage of people who are 'conservative' might stay roughly the same, but ideas on what a conservative is will change.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
There are a great deal of Moderates who tend to vote liberal on most issues. For example for the first time ever it is estimated that more than 50% of Americans support Same sex marriage equality. More than 50% support marijuana legalization. Everyone wants to fix the tax code but in a plutocracy that won't happen.
When I talk to people about a radical overhaul of the tax code, very few actually want major change.
Only we fringe 3rd party types clamor for it. So it can't be blamed on a plutocracy when the vast
majority vote only one of the Big Two. Voters are responsible for what they get.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are a great deal of Moderates who tend to vote liberal on most issues. For example for the first time ever it is estimated that more than 50% of Americans support Same sex marriage equality. More than 50% support marijuana legalization. Everyone wants to fix the tax code but in a plutocracy that won't happen.

Religious rates are slowly (very slowly) dropping in the US. Liberal ideology is slowly growing and some of the conservative ideology is shrinking. My guess is that in 10 years from now unless something major happens there will be more liberals than conservatives. More and more young people are atheists now (somewhat due to the internet and more specifically reddit) and a lot of the elder population is the religious conservative type. In 10-15 years a lot of them will either die or become incapable of getting up and voting while in 10-15 years our 5 year olds that are growing up with a lot of liberal influence will probably vote in a liberal way.
The problem is, people may support 'liberal' policies, as polls seem to indicate, but they don't vote liberal policies. They don't vote policies at all (see article).
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Couple of very quick thoughts in relation to this...

1) This kinda supposes that there isn't a drift towards conservatism as one gets older. I'm not convinced on that, either way.

2) Conservative is a subjective statement. I'm kinda guessing the percentage of people who are 'conservative' might stay roughly the same, but ideas on what a conservative is will change.

I have not seen any actual evidence of a conservative drift with age other than a single snapshot of any given moment in time. What it does show is a gradual shift over time of the population towards more liberal ideals. This is why the current generation is more liberal than the previous and that one more than the one before that.

I don't proclaim that there isn't a shift its just I haven't seen the evidence for it. If there is a study or some kind of sociological experiment have been done on the subject matter I would like to see it.

When I talk to people about a radical overhaul of the tax code, very few actually want major change.
Only we fringe 3rd party types clamor for it. So it can't be blamed on a plutocracy when the vast
majority vote only one of the Big Two. Voters are responsible for what they get.
Massive change? no. But I have not talked to a person yet who liked our tax code. Republicans want change, Democrats want change. They just want different change. In fact I cannot think of anyone who agree's with the off shore tax loopholes other than major players in those corporations. Well that and a few idiots who don't know their President from Hitler.

The problem is, people may support 'liberal' policies, as polls seem to indicate, but they don't vote liberal policies. They don't vote policies at all (see article).

If every person who didn't vote in the last election went out and voted for Darth Vader then Darth vader would have won by a landslide.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Massive change? no. But I have not talked to a person yet who liked our tax code. Republicans want change, Democrats want change. They just want different change. In fact I cannot think of anyone who agree's with the off shore tax loopholes other than major players in those corporations. Well that and a few idiots who don't know their President from Hitler.
To merely want change ain't enuf. People know they don't like the tax code, but they typically give little thought to designing a comprehensive new system, & it takes the back seat to their hot button issues like abortion. (Even continual war doesn't matter much...it now seems our perpetual foreign policy.) People get used to the status quo, hence the prevalence of conservatism (using perhaps a slightly different definition from the OP).
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
To merely want change ain't enuf. People know they don't like the tax code, but they typically give little thought to designing a comprehensive new system, & it takes the back seat to their hot button issues like abortion. (Even continual war doesn't matter much...it now seems our perpetual foreign policy.) People get used to the status quo, hence the prevalence of conservatism (using perhaps a slightly different definition from the OP).

People don't vote for those that would change the tax code. Your right they get complacent with the situation no matter how terrible it is. There is also just so little actually known about the tax code and what kind of loop holes exist. Its simply not common knowledge. Hell I'm a CPA and I don't know 100% of the ins and outs of the tax code. It simply is too broad and too asinine.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Hell I'm a CPA and I don't know 100% of the ins and outs of the tax code. It simply is too broad and too asinine.
No one knows. My CPA regularly has to do research on my questions & issues.
And the IRS agents I've personally dealt with know far far less about it.
(They are typically not the best & brightest. The only good one I ever met
became one because she sold her accounting firm, & had a non-compete
clause. So she went to work for The Great Satan....& audited me.)
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
No one knows. My CPA regularly has to do research on my questions & issues.
And the IRS agents I've personally dealt with know far far less about it.
(They are typically not the best & brightest. The only good one I ever met
became one because she sold her accounting firm, & had a non-compete
clause. So she went to work for The Great Satan....& audited me.)

Many corporations have teams of accountants and legal advisers that have 1 job. And that is to find the loopholes and deductions available. I do not think there is anything wrong with this. But simply that the tax code itself has been allowed to be molded in such a way.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Many corporations have teams of accountants and legal advisers that have 1 job. And that is to find the loopholes and deductions available. I do not think there is anything wrong with this. But simply that the tax code itself has been allowed to be molded in such a way.
Such massive complexity delivers unintended consequences.
But they don't let system design engineers write the code.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
It's because the political right completely controls the debate and vocabulary down there, plus a huge proportion of the media. They've managed to convince Americans that "liberal" is an insult or a slur, like "f*g" or "retard", instead of the value-neutral description of a specific political position.

If I could hazard a guess, I'd say there are way more "liberals" down there than people who are willing to utter the words "I am a political liberal". You can get a better read on the situation by looking at Americans' opinions on individual issues. Should pot be legal? Most Americans say yes. Abortion? Again, most say yes. Do Americans want universal health care? Yep. Would they prefer diplomacy to war? Absolutely. Are they against discrimination based on gender, sexuality or race? They sure are. Will they find a way to believe all these things and still call themselves "conservative" instead of "liberal" - you bet they will! Nobody wants to admit to being a faggy moron.
That is part of the story, but the primary reason why conservatives have more media clout than liberals is because the filthy rich began to see liberalism as something between neutral and hostile to their interests in accumulating more wealth and power for themselves. The infamous Powell Memo, written by future Supreme Court appointee and corporate attorney of the time - Lewis Powell, layed out the game plan for the conservative takeover: where he told the oligarchs to put their money where their mouths are and fund conservative think tanks...to be followed by swamping the media with their experts, the takeover of economics departments in the universities, and create right wing conservative media. The right wing conservatives amalgamated with the majority of conservative religious leaders in the 70's and began the propaganda war at least a decade before the liberal establishment became aware that they were under attack - the election of Ronald Reagan as president

In response, the Democratic Party and media liberals moved to the right, and abandoned the institutions that maintained liberalism in America: unions, state universities, liberal churches, and a free press. Professional liberals caved, and started calling themselves moderates or centrists, and have kept giving up ground ever since...and yes that especially includes Obama!

Some books I've read in the last 10 years, like Thomas Frank's "What's The Matter With Kansas" show how successfully the right has been at hijacking populism, so that, in a state like Kansas, the loyal supporters of a long line of Republican legislators, vote against their own economic interests to support God and Country...or vote against abortion or whatever trumped up social issue the Republicans are running on today. The banking meltdown in 2008 should have been the end of supply side economics, the Republican Party, and ushered in the kind of banking reform that FDR instituted back in 1933.

But Barack Obama was no FDR...in fact he was brought in by the investment bankers; so his decision to follow through with Bush's Wall Street Bailout, rather than to support the millions who lost their life's savings to liar loans and other mortgage scams, took away an easy opportunity to build the liberal populist base. In a nutshell, there are liberals in America, and a growing number of people who have given up on liberalism and moved further left! But they have to endure an onslaught of propaganda every time they turn on their radio or TV, and no longer have a political party that represents their interests. Both the Dems and the Repubs are merely two sides of the corporate party that represents the interests of the people with the money to fund campaigns and reward politicians when they are safely out of office.

Another issue Americans are going to have to ask themselves is: how much freedom do we really have today? Just asking...because it doesn't escape the notice of any outside observers that populist movements of the right, like the tea party demonstrations are promoted and given wide audience in the media, while peace demonstrations, anti-pipeline demonstrations, the Occupy movements etc., get almost no notice in the media until there are mass arrests. On that subject, worth noting how the Homeland Security collaborated with local police forces to shut down all of the demonstrations. The response from law enforcement to any movements on the left is a lot more extreme than justified, whereas a right wing demonstration can be easily coopted by the oligarchs.
 
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