Why was a “virgin birth” necessary?

[idea]

One would expect the Christian teachings to have some concrete value even if turns out the Jesus did not exist or was a mortal man after all.

There is a big difference between Christianity and philosophy and motivational speaking. To say Jesus did not exist is to turn religion into a philosphy.

 

[Katzpur]

Could you please explain from where you got the idea that Jesus performed the great miracles through his own power?

John 10:17-18 states, "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again."

He had power within Himself to resurrect from the dead. That is the greatest of all His miracles.

 

[Comicaze247]

It is the point - you kept rejecting it. Now that you've conceded will move on to your second point.

Yes, semantics are the point.

As to your second point, who are we to apply our man-made morals to God?

I'm pretty sure getting someone that isn't your wife pregnant is something "God" didn't like. I'd think it falls under the category of "thou shalt not covet."

If God is perfectly good then what he did is not sick.

Whether or not he's perfectly good is another debate entirely. I don't believe he is. Some example he's setting for his children

We might only think so because of our limited understanding.

Granted, we humans are of limited understanding of the Divine. But I'd like to think a "heavenly father" would obey his own rules.

Also, since sex was not involved, but a miraculous act of creation was, the connotation you're trying to apply just doesn't exist.

"God's" seed. In a woman. A woman who was not his wife. And his daughter.

And I'm wondering if you'd yet realized that my point was merely poking fun at the concept, which is yet another contradiction. I've also stated earlier how that wasn't even the original story.

 

[Watchmen]

Yes, semantics are the point.


I'm pretty sure getting someone that isn't your wife pregnant is something "God" didn't like. I'd think it falls under the category of "thou shalt not covet."


Whether or not he's perfectly good is another debate entirely. I don't believe he is. Some example he's setting for his children


Granted, we humans are of limited understanding of the Divine. But I'd like to think a "heavenly father" would obey his own rules.


"God's" seed. In a woman. A woman who was not his wife. And his daughter.

And I'm wondering if you'd yet realized that my point was merely poking fun at the concept, which is yet another contradiction. I've also stated earlier how that wasn't even the original story.

So you admit you don't believe God is all good and I admit I believe He is. You don't think God obeys his own rules. I think He does.

We're at an impass.

 

[ayani]

yes, He did. yet He also had the power to forgive sins, heal the sick, and raise the dead. He had the authority and power to do so, yet He says many places that this authority was given Him (by the Father). not only His authority, but His words and teachings. (John 5:19, John 8:28, Matthew 28:18)

not only this, but many places within the Bible relate that "God has raised Him from the dead". Acts 2:24, Acts 4:10, 1 Peter 1:21, and many other passages.

John 10:17-18 states, "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again."[/color]

He had power within Himself to resurrect from the dead. That is the greatest of all His miracles.

 

[logician]

There is a big difference between Christianity and philosophy and motivational speaking. To say Jesus did not exist is to turn religion into a philosphy.

Well, he didn't, and as far as philosophy, there's nothing unique about it.

 

[Katzpur]

yes, He did. yet He also had the power to forgive sins, heal the sick, and raise the dead. He had the authority and power to do so, yet He says many places that this authority was given Him (by the Father). not only His authority, but His words and teachings. (John 5:19, John 8:28, Matthew 28:18)

not only this, but many places within the Bible relate that "God has raised Him from the dead". Acts 2:24, Acts 4:10, 1 Peter 1:21, and many other passages.

Jesus got all of His power and authority from His Father (which is just one more piece of evidence pointing to the fact that the two are not "co-equal" but that the Father is truly greater than the Son.) On the other hand, having received power and authority from His Father, He had them himself and was able to use them on His own to glorify His Father -- which was what He constantly said His mission was all about.

 

[S-word]

John 10:17-18 states, "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again."

[/color]

He had power within Himself to resurrect from the dead. That is the greatest of all His miracles.

(Deuteronomy 18: 18, I will raise up from among the Israelites, a prophet just like you, I will tell him what to say and he will tell the people everything that I command, he will speak in my name etc.)

Jesus spoke not one word on his own authority, everything you have heard which came from the mouth of the Lord's obedient servant Jesus, were not his words but the words of "I Am Who I Am,' the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who, according to Acts 3: 13, has given divine glory to his servant Jesus. The Miracles worked through the man Jesus, were the miracles of our holy Father and saviour. (See 1st Timothy 1: 1, "From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by order of God our saviour and Christ Jesus our hope.)


And it was our indwelling God and saviour who raised Jesus from death and is able to raise we also, who are gathered to Jesus as joint heirs to the throne of Godhead, the new creation, which will gain dominion over all the world, visible and invisible, in who our Lord will rule even the angels in heaven.


In reference to our Lord who revealed himself through the perfected life and the words of his faithful servant Jesus, it is said in Acts 17: 31, "For he has fixed a day in which he will rule the whole world with Justice through a man he has chosen, He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that man from death."


Do you still say that the man Jesus who was chosen by the lord from among the Israelites and filled with the spirit of the Lord, and spoke not one word on his own authority, but only that which he was commanded to say and do, raised himself from death by his own power, or have you missed the whole point altogether?

 

[S-word]

yes, He did. yet He also had the power to forgive sins, heal the sick, and raise the dead. He had the authority and power to do so, yet He says many places that this authority was given Him (by the Father). not only His authority, but His words and teachings. (John 5:19, John 8:28, Matthew 28:18)

not only this, but many places within the Bible relate that "God has raised Him from the dead". Acts 2:24, Acts 4:10, 1 Peter 1:21, and many other passages.

It was the only exception of all mankind to have ascended to the ends of time and had witnessed all things, who, after the flood, (The Baptismal waters of Mankind in which the old indwelling spirit was replaced) was the indwelling spirit in man, who in the body of mankind (The virgin bride of God) gained all the wisdom, knowledge and insight needed to rule the whole world with Justice.

And all that wisdom and knowledge was gained from the suffering inflicted upon the body in which He 'The Son Of Man' developed, which sufferings were caused by the sins and mistakes we made in our lives. It was He 'The first born Son of God,' "The Son of Man,' who came down and revealed himself through his obedient servant Jesus.

And it was He that said he had been given all authority to forgive sins and heal the sick, which He did through his servant Jesus, who confessed that he spoke not one word on his own authority, nor worked any miracle by his own power.

 

[S-word]

s-word,

You are beginning to impress me... perhaps even a lot! lol

I have not "heard" from any other.. the insights you share so readily. This does pose a bigger intrigue to me... the fact you have explored as much would have me believe you have been inspired to do so. Yet, there remains something still in the way... you have my attention!

On topic: And Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there, and she received food from the hand of an angel. And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of the priests, saying: Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, test perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord? And they said to the high priest: Thou standest by the altar of the Lord; go in, and pray concerning her; and whatever the Lord shall manifest unto thee, that also will we do.

s-word, All,

The significance of these writings in the infancy gospel cannot be overstated regarding the "inspired" consistency that was shared. Further, one who is "also" inspired could not deny the authenticity of what was being presented. The significance, whereby a house cannot stand divided, must not be ignored while addressing these writings and one's like them. In every way the observances brought forward regarding Mary and the conception holds to an order that cannot be denied... holding to holy observances.

Outside of these writings, one who is inspired should be able to accept, and to do so with out the defenses that are fused with untruths and the like. Hence, such things are not for everyone looking in.

S-word... all,

Please continue!

No child, girl or woman, had ever entered into the Holy of Holies. And I have no interest at all in any fairytale that would say there has been. Come down out of the clouds and get your feet back on the ground. You have been deceived by the writings of people who had no understanding whatsoever of the Jewish religion, their customs, and their fanatical obedience to the laws of their ancestors. You have been deceived by those of whom John warned were in the world already in his day, the disciples of the anti-Christ who refuse to acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being, people that had been brought up in the mysteries of the religions of Pan, Isis, Zeus, Thor etc.

The Jewish people were and are still awaiting their Messiah, but no Jew ever believed for one moment that he was to be born of a virgin as there is no mention whatsoever of a virgin birth in their scriptures, and nor was Jesus born of a virgin birth. The man Jesus was the physical image of our spiritual saviour who had filled Jesus with his spirit, and Jesus who has been tested and proved true and is to return to choose the required number of Jews and Gentiles who will take the thrones that have been prepared for them, through who, our Lord will rule the whole world with justice.

The genealogy of Jesus is recorded in the Bible and it is 'Heli the Levite' who is the grandfather of Jesus and the father of the two biological parents of Jesus. For Just as Isaac the prototype of Jesus, who like Jesus, was offered up as a sacrifice by his father on the very same mountain upon which Jesus was crucified; and like Jesus, was born was of god's promise, (Deuteronomy 18: 18, I will raise up from among the Israelites, a prophet just like you, I will tell him what to say and will tell the people everything that I command, he will speak in my name etc.) and like Jesus he was born according to the workings of the Holy Spirit, and Like Jesus, he was the biological son of parents who were both sired by the one father.

And the Jewish Messiah as mentioned in Numbers 24: 17-19, is coming, “I look into the future and I see the nation of Israel. A king like a bright star will arise in that nation. Like a comet he will come from Israel. He will strike the leaders of Moab and beat down the people of Seth. He will conquer his enemies in Edom and make their land his property. While Israel continues victorious. The nation of Israel will trample them down and wipe out the last survivors.”

Malachi 3, The Lord Almighty answers, “I will send my messenger to prepare the way for me. Then the Lord you are looking for will suddenly come to his Temple (In Jerusalem). The messenger you long to see will come and proclaim my covenant.” But who will be able to endure the day when he comes? Who will be able to survive when he appears? This is Elijah the prophet of Fire who slaughtered the priests of Baal who taught the people to worship the immortal God in the form of a mortal man.

Isaiah 63: 1-6, “Who is this coming from the city of Bozrah in Edom? Who is this so splendidly dressed in red, marching along in power and strength?” It is the Lord, powerful to save, coming to announce his victory. “Why is his clothing so red, like that of a man who tramples grapes to make wine?”
The Lord answers, “I have trampled the nations like grapes and no one came to help me. I trampled them in my anger, and their blood has stained all my clothing. I decided that the time to save my people had come; it was time to punish their enemies, I was amazed when I looked and saw that there was no one to help me. But my anger made me strong, and I won the victory myself. In my anger I trampled whole nations and shattered them, I poured out their life’s blood on the earth.”

When the Jewish Messiah who they had rejected, feels that the time to save his people has arrived, they will look to him and see his physical image through which our saviour God had revealed himself to the world, through the one that they had pieced.

First the city of Jerusalem will be looted and the women raped. Then the Lord will go out and fight for his people as he has fought in times past. They will look to me says the Lord our saviour and they will see the one who they pierced. The Lord our saviour will then gather all the nations together for the Great War that will end all wars, and he will confuse the enemies of his chosen people, causing them to turn their weapons of destruction on their own allies. A terrible disease will befall all those nations that surround Jerusalem; their radiated flesh cooked to the bone will slide from their bodies while are still alive, and their soft tissue such as eyes and tongues will dissolve in their sockets.

Then all the survivors of the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go there each year to worship the Lord Almighty as King and to celebrate the festival of shelters. Any nation who refuses to send their representatives to worship the Lord Almighty as King, will suffer severe drought, and any nation who does not celebrate the festival of shelters, will suffer the same disease that was inflicted on the armies that surrounded Jerusalem.

Then they whose eyes and hands are raised to heaven in worship of the God they have never known, the God who is our indwelling father and saviour who raised Jesus from death and is able to raise we also who are gathered to Jesus and are Joint heirs to the throne of Godhead, the new Glorious Temple of Light in which our saviour can rest; can kiss goodbye to their magnificent Cathedrals of Stone, crystal and glass, which are filled with their obscene idols. For the Lord they have been waiting so long for, the Lord that they have longed to see, will be in his Holy City of Jerusalem and there and there only, shall he be worshiped.

 

[InerrantWord]

Jesus Christ says the virgin birth was necessary because how could David have referred to the messiah as his LORD if David were his father? Thus the Christ could not have a father except God.

 

[LuisDantas]

There is a big difference between Christianity and philosophy and motivational speaking. To say Jesus did not exist is to turn religion into a philosphy.

I always thought of religion as applied philosophy, myself. Why is the difference big?

 

[S-word]

Jesus Christ says the virgin birth was necessary because how could David have referred to the messiah as his LORD if David were his father? Thus the Christ could not have a father except God.

Those word did not originate from Jesus, but were the words of the Lord who commanded Jesus, (who spoke not one word on his own authority,) what he should say.

They were the words of the Lord who is the only exception of all mankind who, in the body of mankind had ascended to the ends of time and witnessed all things, even the heavens rolling up as a scroll with a great hissing noise as the universal elements burnt up and fell as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the Great Abyss from which all things had originated, which seemingly bottomless pit or Black Hole, is the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven.

He, the only exception of all mankind to have been redeemned from the previous world that was destroyed by water, as the developing Spirit within the body of Mankind, was the indwelling Father (Ancestral Spirit) in the post-flood body of mankind who are descended through Noah the Grandson of Enoch.

Enoch, who at the age of 365, the number of days in a calaendar year, (The one year old unblemished sacrifical Lamb of God) ascended to the tenth heaven where he was stripped of his mortal garment and anointed with the sweet smelling ointment of God which shone with the brilliance of the sun and Behold, he was as one of the glorious ones, where clothed and girded in fire, he was to serve God before the body of Adam into all eternity.

In the book from which Jude the half brother to Jesus had quoted from, "verbatim" we read in chapter 37: 4, "Till the present day such wisdom has never been given by the Lord of Spirits as I have received according to my insight, according to the good pleasure of the Lord of spirits by whom the lot of eternal life has been given me."

And it was He, our indwelling Father who cried out to the one and only true God, "The Blood of sheep and cattle you never asked for, but a body you have prepared for me."

That body was prepared by the workings of the Holy Spirit who had gathered to the bosom of Abraham, the required number of good spirits who had fallen asleep in righteousness and had paid the blood price for any sins they had commited in their life on earth.

And the compilation of that enclosure of righteous spirits was the man Jesus whom our heavenly father filled with his spirit as he rose from the Baptismal waters and the voice from heaven was heard to say, "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased, Today I have become your Father.'' See the more ancient authorities of Luke 3: 22.

This was the Lord of David, who, in the body of his obedient servant Jesus who was descended through Nathan the priest, the stepson and son-in-law of King David, revealed himself and the great sacrifice that he is yet to pay for the body of his elect and chosen ones of which Jesus was the first to be chosen. But that is another story.

 

[raybo]

No child, girl or woman, had ever entered into the Holy of Holies. And I have no interest at all in any fairytale that would say there has been. Come down out of the clouds and get your feet back on the ground. You have been deceived by the writings of people who had no understanding whatsoever of the Jewish religion, their customs, and their fanatical obedience to the laws of their ancestors. You have been deceived by those of whom John warned were in the world already in his day, the disciples of the anti-Christ who refuse to acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being, people that had been brought up in the mysteries of the religions of Pan, Isis, Zeus, Thor etc.

s-word,

Let it be said that deception is no stranger to me. In this it is far better for me not to linger over a word that denotes virgin vses young women as in Isaiah 7:14. Perhaps one should look with eyes open and consider verses Isaiah 7-25 as well as what can be seen in the rest.

Ps. It was NOT stated that Mary had entered the inner sanctuaries of the temple. Though she was selected to weave a new curtain for it... a virgin non the less!

Then consider the Infancy Gospels:

The first Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ in the book of Joseph the high-priest, called by some Caiaphas. Fantasy perhaps, as some might consider, yet the blessings that befell those who touched the clothes or the left over water that washed the child is quite imaginative. The Infancy Gospel of James and Thomas all the more. What purpose to gather these teachings? To deceive further or to allow those who are inspired to see the truth? What fantasy could be shared without the retribution that would be shouted from the rooftops by the demons that roamed during those times. .. before the resurrection?

Yet, as i shared earlier, much can be seen with your replies and service to this topic and others. You have made this one joyful to share in your posts.

ray

 

[S-word]

s-word,

Let it be said that deception is no stranger to me. In this it is far better for me not to linger over a word that denotes virgin vses young women as in Isaiah 7:14. Perhaps one should look with eyes open and consider verses Isaiah 7-25 as well as what can be seen in the rest.

Ps. It was NOT stated that Mary had entered the inner sanctuaries of the temple. Though she was selected to weave a new curtain for it... a virgin non the less!

Then consider the Infancy Gospels:

The first Gospel of the Infancy of Jesus Christ in the book of Joseph the high-priest, called by some Caiaphas. Fantasy perhaps, as some might consider, yet the blessings that befell those who touched the clothes or the left over water that washed the child is quite imaginative. The Infancy Gospel of James and Thomas all the more. What purpose to gather these teachings? To deceive further or to allow those who are inspired to see the truth? What fantasy could be shared without the retribution that would be shouted from the rooftops by the demons that roamed during those times. .. before the resurrection?

Yet, as i shared earlier, much can be seen with your replies and service to this topic and others. You have made this one joyful to share in your posts.

ray

If you choose to live in that world of fantasy so be it, that is your choice and you have that right, just don't attempt to drag me into your world of make believe, and so untill your feet are established in this real world, Goodbye my friend.

 

[sojourner]

No child, girl or woman, had ever entered into the Holy of Holies. And I have no interest at all in any fairytale that would say there has been. Come down out of the clouds and get your feet back on the ground. You have been deceived by the writings of people who had no understanding whatsoever of the Jewish religion, their customs, and their fanatical obedience to the laws of their ancestors. You have been deceived by those of whom John warned were in the world already in his day, the disciples of the anti-Christ who refuse to acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being, people that had been brought up in the mysteries of the religions of Pan, Isis, Zeus, Thor etc.

The Jewish people were and are still awaiting their Messiah, but no Jew ever believed for one moment that he was to be born of a virgin as there is no mention whatsoever of a virgin birth in their scriptures, and nor was Jesus born of a virgin birth. The man Jesus was the physical image of our spiritual saviour who had filled Jesus with his spirit, and Jesus who has been tested and proved true and is to return to choose the required number of Jews and Gentiles who will take the thrones that have been prepared for them, through who, our Lord will rule the whole world with justice.

The genealogy of Jesus is recorded in the Bible and it is 'Heli the Levite' who is the grandfather of Jesus and the father of the two biological parents of Jesus. For Just as Isaac the prototype of Jesus, who like Jesus, was offered up as a sacrifice by his father on the very same mountain upon which Jesus was crucified; and like Jesus, was born was of god's promise, (Deuteronomy 18: 18, I will raise up from among the Israelites, a prophet just like you, I will tell him what to say and will tell the people everything that I command, he will speak in my name etc.) and like Jesus he was born according to the workings of the Holy Spirit, and Like Jesus, he was the biological son of parents who were both sired by the one father.

And the Jewish Messiah as mentioned in Numbers 24: 17-19, is coming, “I look into the future and I see the nation of Israel. A king like a bright star will arise in that nation. Like a comet he will come from Israel. He will strike the leaders of Moab and beat down the people of Seth. He will conquer his enemies in Edom and make their land his property. While Israel continues victorious. The nation of Israel will trample them down and wipe out the last survivors.”

Malachi 3, The Lord Almighty answers, “I will send my messenger to prepare the way for me. Then the Lord you are looking for will suddenly come to his Temple (In Jerusalem). The messenger you long to see will come and proclaim my covenant.” But who will be able to endure the day when he comes? Who will be able to survive when he appears? This is Elijah the prophet of Fire who slaughtered the priests of Baal who taught the people to worship the immortal God in the form of a mortal man.

Isaiah 63: 1-6, “Who is this coming from the city of Bozrah in Edom? Who is this so splendidly dressed in red, marching along in power and strength?” It is the Lord, powerful to save, coming to announce his victory. “Why is his clothing so red, like that of a man who tramples grapes to make wine?”
The Lord answers, “I have trampled the nations like grapes and no one came to help me. I trampled them in my anger, and their blood has stained all my clothing. I decided that the time to save my people had come; it was time to punish their enemies, I was amazed when I looked and saw that there was no one to help me. But my anger made me strong, and I won the victory myself. In my anger I trampled whole nations and shattered them, I poured out their life’s blood on the earth.”

When the Jewish Messiah who they had rejected, feels that the time to save his people has arrived, they will look to him and see his physical image through which our saviour God had revealed himself to the world, through the one that they had pieced.

First the city of Jerusalem will be looted and the women raped. Then the Lord will go out and fight for his people as he has fought in times past. They will look to me says the Lord our saviour and they will see the one who they pierced. The Lord our saviour will then gather all the nations together for the Great War that will end all wars, and he will confuse the enemies of his chosen people, causing them to turn their weapons of destruction on their own allies. A terrible disease will befall all those nations that surround Jerusalem; their radiated flesh cooked to the bone will slide from their bodies while are still alive, and their soft tissue such as eyes and tongues will dissolve in their sockets.

Then all the survivors of the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go there each year to worship the Lord Almighty as King and to celebrate the festival of shelters. Any nation who refuses to send their representatives to worship the Lord Almighty as King, will suffer severe drought, and any nation who does not celebrate the festival of shelters, will suffer the same disease that was inflicted on the armies that surrounded Jerusalem.

Then they whose eyes and hands are raised to heaven in worship of the God they have never known, the God who is our indwelling father and saviour who raised Jesus from death and is able to raise we also who are gathered to Jesus and are Joint heirs to the throne of Godhead, the new Glorious Temple of Light in which our saviour can rest; can kiss goodbye to their magnificent Cathedrals of Stone, crystal and glass, which are filled with their obscene idols. For the Lord they have been waiting so long for, the Lord that they have longed to see, will be in his Holy City of Jerusalem and there and there only, shall he be worshiped.

You're off here. The gosples make it clear that Jesus was not conceived by Joseph. The implication is that it was an act of God. Yes, Jesus was fully human, but, while a nod is made toward Isaac, I don't think the gospel writers intended to make Jesus a "second Isaac," nor did they imply that Jesus was born of Joseph.

Edit: One more thought here. One reason that, at least Matthew has Jesus not born of Joseph, is because he is clearly equating Jesus with Augustus in his prologue. Augustus was an adopted son. Therefore, Jesus was adopted by Joseph. (Joseph's naming of Jesus shows that Joseph had adopted him.)

 

[raybo]

s-word,
It is my hope, that considering new age or new testament teachings does not threaten your study regarding "older" text. As you quoted the book of Enoch, The Second book of Adam and Eve, and perhaps even The Cave of treasures along with the Torah and others you are venturous no more, nor less than I. If you were to sum up the Torah and these considered books, could you not extend your awareness toward the testimony of those who might have witnessed the anointed one... such as Yeshua and others.

What would that have been like? Why would one so readily dismiss measures that seem "are" consistent with right intent and/or holy measures?

This one, does not choose nor claim any right to add or dismiss this or that so easily. Yet, what is written on one's heart must be tested. I remain stead with what has been gained/shed. The origins are not my own... it is assured. Remaining as you wish! Blessings!

On topic: The why, as to a virgin birth remains to be defined... and is a greater question than most imagine. Does anyone else feel likewise?

 

[sojourner]

s-word,
It is my hope, that considering new age or new testament teachings does not threaten your study regarding "older" text. As you quoted the book of Enoch, The Second book of Adam and Eve, and perhaps even The Cave of treasures along with the Torah and others you are venturous no more, nor less than I. If you were to sum up the Torah and these considered books, could you not extend your awareness toward the testimony of those who might have witnessed the anointed one... such as Yeshua and others.

What would that have been like? Why would one so readily dismiss measures that seem "are" consistent with right intent and/or holy measures?

This one, does not choose nor claim any right to add or dismiss this or that so easily. Yet, what is written on one's heart must be tested. I remain stead with what has been gained/shed. The origins are not my own... it is assured. Remaining as you wish! Blessings!

On topic: The why, as to a virgin birth remains to be defined... and is a greater question than most imagine. Does anyone else feel likewise?

The quick-and-dirty answer (and one that is entirely off the top of my head -- plus I think the tradition deserves more consideration than that) is that virgin births were, in a literary sense, a device that writers used frequently when telling about heroes.

 

[S-word]

You're off here. The gosples make it clear that Jesus was not conceived by Joseph. The implication is that it was an act of God. Yes, Jesus was fully human, but, while a nod is made toward Isaac, I don't think the gospel writers intended to make Jesus a "second Isaac," nor did they imply that Jesus was born of Joseph.

dit: One more thought here. One reason that, at least Matthew has Jesus not born of Joseph, is because he is clearly equating Jesus with Augustus in his prologue. Augustus was an adopted son. Therefore, Jesus was adopted by Joseph. (Joseph's naming of Jesus shows that Joseph had adopted him.)

You are of course refering here to the stepfather of Jesus whose genealogy is recorded in Matthew, and he is Joseph the son of Jacob of the tribe of Judah, having descended through Solomon.

He, who was the father of Marys second born child 'Joseph' of whom we know so little, did not have any sexual relations with Mary until after she had given birth to the first of her three biological sons, I believe that everyone knows that this Joseph is not the biological father of Jesus.

The Joseph that I am refering to is the Joseph that is mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus, the one who is the biological father of Jesus and the half brother to Mary the daughter of Heli who is a Levite and is descended through Nathan the priest who was the half brother to Solomon and stepson and son-in-law of King David.

Nathan, was the biological son of Uriah the Hittite who had married into the tribe of Levi, having married Bathsheba the daughter of Ammiel the son of Obed-Edom who was a descendant of Moses the Levite through his second wife who was the daughter of Hobab the second father-in-law to Moses whose grandson Jonathan, was taken to the land of the North by the Danites: of whom none are mentioned among the 144000 chosen ones who are chosen from the 12 tribes named after 12 of the 13 children of Jacob.

This Joseph, who was a Levite from Cyprus, apparently met Mary while she was visiting their cousin Elizabeth, where many members of the family had gathered to rejoice with the old woman. It is there that Mary who, until then had been a virgin, was to fall pregnant, which conception was concealed beneath the wings of the Lord of spirits which had overshadowed the righteous act in obedience to the Holy Spirit. It is very unlikely that Mary knew at that time that this Joseph had been sired by her father. From Young's Analytical Concordance to the bible, "Almah":...Concealment...unmarried female.

This Joseph who was the half brother to Mary who had adopted John whom Jesus had surnamed 'Son of Thunder, took his sister and John who was surnamed "Mark" which means "Hammer" up north into the land of Pamphillia, where in the town of Ephesus, the grave sites of Mary and John can still be visited today.

 

[raybo]

The quick-and-dirty answer (and one that is entirely off the top of my head -- plus I think the tradition deserves more consideration than that) is that virgin births were, in a literary sense, a device that writers used frequently when telling about heroes.

Yes! One must consider the comings and goings esp. after the prophecy whereby Isaiah establishes 700+/- years... whereby the imitator could start his ramblings. Interesting to note how Ecclesiastes was canonized to sum up the Hebrew Bible just about the time of Yeshua.

12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

It would appear that the weariness that consumes the flesh had done its job on the Sadducee's and Pharisees... of those times as well. One should always consider this when applying themselves. Further, why had the teachings that were added to the Torah conclude when they did? Who is responsible and the one who could tear the veil and expose the Holy of Holies beyond the reach of mankind?

...he who has ears let him hear!!!