Why Was Jesus Necessary?

[Skwim]

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?

Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having got or getting the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever. So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster

So, nope, the notion of proving oneself worthy just doesn't wash, at least not under the auspices of an all-loving and benevolent god, which puts us right back at square one. Why did god even bother with Jesus?


Ideas?


.

 

[Duke_Leto]

I'm not knowledgeable on the subject, but from what I learned in my university theology courses, the idea that Jesus was a sacrifice is only one of several accepted Catholic beliefs regarding what Jesus did. I don't know what the Orthodox believe, but Protestants in general accept that as the only possible interpretation, which then influences the general population's understanding of the subject, including many Catholics'.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It really doesn't make any sense when you consider the stories of the Old Testament.

One would think Jesus would have been sent down at the time of Adam and Eve rather than go through scriptural volumes depicting the floods, plagues , wars, exterminations, and then, after all that, send Jesus down afterwards?

 

[lukethethird]

Paul, our favorite religious fanatic, explains it well.

 

[1robin]

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind be absolved?

Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having got, or getting, the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god new of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell, or wherever. So why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster

So, nope, the notion of proving oneself worthy just doesn't wash, at least not under the auspices of an all-loving and benevolent god, which puts us right back at square one. Why did god even bother with Jesus?


Ideas?


.

You have a few good questions here but you ought to be satisfied with the straightforward answers I can provide in response. Please read this carefully as few questions like yours come with solutions this comprehensive and elegant. No other faith even comes close. For example Allah simply hand waves some of our sins away based on his fickle preferences. Christianity has a much more just, sufficient, and comprehensive solution to sin.

1. God (being perfectly just) cannot let us into heaven with a whole list of sins (and the unimaginable costs they produced) accredited to our account. God could not let imperfect creatures into heaven because he would just be turning his heaven into the same train wreck we have made out of this life.
2. God can only let perfect people into his heaven but we are not perfect so how can God accomplish all this?
3. God must let sinners in to ruin heaven or somehow make us into perfect people.
4. God is both just and loving so whatever he does must satisfy both attributes.
5. His sense of justice means that sins must be punished, his loving nature means he needs to remedy this situation so that imperfect people may enter heaven. This is why Christ's roll was necessary.

CRIST'S NECESSITY AND SUBSTATUTIONARY ATONEMENT.

A. We have absolutely nothing which can make up for the sins we committed and the damage they caused. God is the only one who can make that right but sins must be punished or God is no longer just. So God needs to produce a substitute for our selves who will pay for our sins.
B. So God provided a sacrificial lamp (to which his earlier animal sacrifices hinted would occur in the future). Christ was that willing sacrifice.
C. While on the cross all of God's justice was poured out on Christ (keep in mind Christ volunteered to do this). Christ paid the entire price to satisfy God's justice and wrath so we would not have to. What was this wrath that Christ endured? The suffering on the cross and his complete separation from God (the father). IOW he endured the hell our sins deserved.
D. The beauty of God's provision was that God paid the price our sins deserve and for those that believe his perfect (sinless) record was transferred to us so that we can enter heaven with a sinless record deserving of an eternity in heaven.
E. So for believers our sin was accredited to Christ and his righteousness was accredited to Christ.
F. Now you might say Christ got screwed in this deal but because he had no record of any sins actually committed by him to once he paid the price he volunteered to undergo he could just march right back into God's presence due to the lack of any sin he actually committed.

Despite my poor efforts to explain this (and the fact I must be brief) surely you can still see the perfectly elegant provision God supplied to the most substantial problem in human history.

A few things to keep in mind as you review the above.

* Substitutionary atonement is where ones debt is placed on another and what one earned is transferred to another.
* What Christ endured in our place is not physical death it is (second death) spiritual death (being severed from God and everything his existence comes with).
* Christ chose this roll he was not required to do so.
* No greater form of love exists that self sacrifice. We build museums and give metal to humans who sacrificed a lot less for a much smaller gain.

I can't do this unique concept full justice even if I sat here typing for years so I will have to stop somewhere. Even if you have no spiritual faith surely you can see how harmonious, mystifying, and elegant God's solution to man's problem actually was. No other faith has anything so mystically beautiful and substitutionary atonement.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You have a few good questions here but you ought to be satisfied with the straightforward answers I can provide in response. Please read this carefully as few questions like yours come with solutions this comprehensive and elegant. No other faith even comes close. For example Allah simply hand waves some of our sins away based on his fickle preferences. Christianity has a much more just, sufficient, and comprehensive solution to sin.

1. God (being perfectly just) cannot let us into heaven with a whole list of sins (and the unimaginable costs they produced) accredited to our account. God could not let imperfect creatures into heaven because he would just be turning his heaven into the same train wreck we have made out of this life.
2. God can only let perfect people into his heaven but we are not perfect so how can God accomplish all this?
3. God must let sinners in to ruin heaven or somehow make us into perfect people.
4. God is both just and loving so whatever he does must satisfy both attributes.
5. His sense of justice means that sins must be punished, his loving nature means he needs to remedy this situation so that imperfect people may enter heaven. This is why Christ's roll was necessary.

CRIST'S NECESSITY AND SUBSTATUTIONARY ATONEMENT.

A. We have absolutely nothing which can make up for the sins we committed and the damage they caused. God is the only one who can make that right but sins must be punished or God is no longer just. So God needs to produce a substitute for our selves who will pay for our sins.
B. So God provided a sacrificial lamp (to which his earlier animal sacrifices hinted would occur in the future). Christ was that willing sacrifice.
C. While on the cross all of God's justice was poured out on Christ (keep in mind Christ volunteered to do this). Christ paid the entire price to satisfy God's justice and wrath so we would not have to. What was this wrath that Christ endured? The suffering on the cross and his complete separation from God (the father). IOW he endured the hell our sins deserved.
D. The beauty of God's provision was that God paid the price our sins deserve and for those that believe his perfect (sinless) record was transferred to us so that we can enter heaven with a sinless record deserving of an eternity in heaven.
E. So for believers our sin was accredited to Christ and his righteousness was accredited to Christ.
F. Now you might say Christ got screwed in this deal but because he had no record of any sins actually committed by him to once he paid the price he volunteered to undergo he could just march right back into God's presence due to the lack of any sin he actually committed.

Despite my poor efforts to explain this (and the fact I must be brief) surely you can still see the perfectly elegant provision God supplied to the most substantial problem in human history.

A few things to keep in mind as you review the above.

* Substitutionary atonement is where ones debt is placed on another and what one earned is transferred to another.
* What Christ endured in our place is not physical death it is (second death) spiritual death (being severed from God and everything his existence comes with).
* Christ chose this roll he was not required to do so.
* No greater form of love exists that self sacrifice. We build museums and give metal to humans who sacrificed a lot less for a much smaller gain.

I can't do this unique concept full justice even if I sat here typing for years so I will have to stop somewhere. Even if you have no spiritual faith surely you can see how harmonious, mystifying, and elegant God's solution to man's problem actually was. No other faith has anything so mystically beautiful and substitutionary atonement.

You've given an very good and articulate explanation of the Christian position. I do not wish to discourage you from being a Christian. However, may I point out that all through the Tanakh, God forgave people. A broken heart and contrite spirit is the only sacrifice God really wants.

 

[BSM1]

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind be absolved?

Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having got, or get, the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever. So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster

So, nope, the notion of proving oneself worthy just doesn't wash, at least not under the auspices of an all-loving and benevolent god, which puts us right back at square one. Why did god even bother with Jesus?


Ideas?


.

I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but you should do yourself a favor and at least read the section of the Urantia Book that deals with Jesus, his life, and his significance to this world. It's not what's be hammered into our heads for the last 2000 years.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but you should do yourself a favor and at least read the section of the Urantia Book that deals with Jesus, his life, and his significance to this world. It's not what's be hammered into our heads for the last 2000 years.

Right. It's some Johnny come lately's ideas. It's the New Age version of Eastern Philosophy very roughly disguised as Jesus stuff. There is so much good stuff already out there. I don't see why we need any new gurus making up new stuff.

 

[sun rise]

The OP perspective is Western not Eastern. From the Eastern perspective some accept Jesus as a manifestation of the Avatar, the God-Man.

And to conceive of God and the Christ as separate entities is inaccurate. It appears as though there is a separate being, God, and a separate being, Christ, but that's illusion not reality from this perspective.

 

[BSM1]

Right. It's some Johnny come lately's ideas. It's the New Age version of Eastern Philosophy very roughly disguised as Jesus stuff. There is so much good stuff already out there. I don't see why we need any new gurus making up new stuff.

You've read it?

 

[1robin]

You've given an very good and articulate explanation of the Christian position. I do not wish to discourage you from being a Christian. However, may I point out that all through the Tanakh, God forgave people. A broken heart and contrite spirit is the only sacrifice God really wants.

I appreciate your approval of my post. Would you like to discuss how salvation in the OT was just as connected to what Christ would do much later as it has been since he appeared in history?

 

[Deeje]

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind be absolved?

In Eden, God's sovereignty was challenged by an ambitious spirit creature who had turned rebellious. As a free willed being, he had that propensity, but up until the creation of lower intelligent creatures he could not present himself as a god to anyone. He saw his opportunity when the woman was alone, and accused God of lying to them...he even called into question God's right to set limits for them in the hope of separating the humans from their God and getting them to do his bidding instead.

His ploy worked and he smugly waited for God's response.....it came in a way he did not expect. God could have just snuffed out the rebels because he is more powerful, but that was not the devil's accusation.....he questioned God's right to set the rules...he did not question his power. Would eliminating the rebels answer the question? No it wouldn't, and because one spirit entity had rebelled, there was nothing to stop others from becoming "satans" (resistors) as well. So God allowed the rebels to have their way and to experience for themselves what life would be like without God setting the rules and without his intervention in their quest for independence. He basically gave them the freedom they asked for. Time would tell them how successful they would be.

Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having got, or get, the message.

Each individual is given the opportunity to choose either God as his sovereign ruler, or the devil. There are only two choices and each are hoping that you will choose them. God has provided scripture to inform people of his dealings with humans in the past, so that we, at this point in the future, can make an informed appraisal. God has moral standards and a code of conduct that some find oppressive. Those who love God do not find them to be oppressive at all.

The devil, OTOH has made propaganda an art form by painting himself as the better god and ruler. He promotes "freedom" and paints his suggested lifestyle as something desirable and something to sacrifice everything for. We have to become slaves to his greedy and materialistic system though. Those who are enslaved have no idea how much they have been deceived.

Some will fight to the death for their country but criticize Jesus for giving up his life to save others. Some will try to equate politics with religion thinking that the solution to man's problems can be brought about politically through Christianity in government.....but the world and its politics are all in the hands of God's enemy. (1 John 5:19) It is no place for Christians. (John 18:36)

What makes you think that some are "appraised of God's requirements"? We are all the product of a vast gene pool that is completely contaminated by sin. We each have the propensity to rise above our base inclinations, but only some of us will put forward the required effort. It is effort that God blesses...no effort means no blessing.

And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness.

Who said?

Romans 2:14-15..."For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them."

This scripture shows us how God judges those who have never heard of God or who may be incapable of understanding his laws. God is a reader of hearts and will judge those ones accordingly. There is no injustice with God.

Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever.

No one needs to end up on the wrong side of this issue, since all God requires is obedience to his laws and commands. We don't have to agree with a law to abide by it do we? We keep the law because it is our best interests to do so....we see the sense in keeping it and the folly of ignoring it. Is there an excuse as to why anyone can't obey God? Or is it more of a choice of won't?
You see God understands our imperfections and our propensity to go the wrong way....so all he needs to see is an effort on our part to comply with his will (sincerely motivated) and he will bless that effort.

Most people have formed their opinion about God from misguided sources. Instead of forming the correct opinion, based on true information, they get a distorted view and are repelled by it. God knows who is genuinely searching for him with a humble heart. He will reveal himself to such ones, but he will never accept those who come to him with a raised fist. Attitude is everything.

So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster

I cannot begin to tell you how wrong that assessment is. The world is poor and unfortunate because humans think that they don't need God in order to live good and productive lives. They think that they can do it better by themselves.....well, I am here to remind you that they have failed miserably to achieve peace, security and happiness on their own without God's help and guidance. They had all the tools to produce a great life for everyone but instead, power has corrupted humans so thoroughly that you are hard pressed to find any truly happy people today. Every vestige of human activity is tainted with selfish ambition and greed for wealth and power. Nothing can thrive in that environment.

We could have avoided all of this, but it was a great way for God to sort the 'sheep' from the 'goats'. We will all ultimately be caught in the act of being ourselves.

So, nope, the notion of proving oneself worthy just doesn't wash, at least not under the auspices of an all-loving and benevolent god, which puts us right back at square one. Why did god even bother with Jesus?

Ideas?.

The challenge in Eden was a legal one. A treasonous 'slanderer' brought the name of the Sovereign of the Universe into disrepute, accusing him of being a liar and not having his children's best interests at heart.

In order to challenge this accuser, God has fought a legal battle to clear his name and to bring the accuser to justice. The devil has accomplices, both angelic and human, so these too must be tried and convicted.
There are witnesses in this court case testifying by their actions whose side of the matter they are supporting...both humans and angels.
God has his witnesses and satan has his, but the devil never tells them the truth because "truth is not in him". (John 8:44)

The judge in this case is also the defendant....so what a stupid position for satan to place himself in! A liar who challenges the God of truth is nothing but a fool. Those who believe his lies will suffer the same fate as he does. They believe him because they want to.

The verdict is a foregone conclusion and those who take the losing side will be condemned along with the loser....not to any hell of torment but by simply by being stripped of the gift of life that the Creator gave them in the first place.

Adam paid for his own sin with his own life, but there was no one to pay for Adam's children to be released form the debt he left them as an awful inheritance. (Romans 5:12) Jesus volunteered to be the perfect sinless life to buy back what Adam lost for them. That is the role of a redeemer.

 

[Skwim]

It really doesn't make any sense when you consider the stories of the Old Testament.

One would think Jesus would have been sent down at the time of Adam and Eve rather than go through scriptural volumes depicting the floods, plagues , wars, exterminations, and then, after all that, send Jesus down afterwards?

You're absolutely right. The god of the Bible doesn't come off as compassionate in the least.

.

 

[Skwim]

1. God (being perfectly just) cannot let us into heaven with a whole list of sins (and the unimaginable costs they produced) accredited to our account. God could not let imperfect creatures into heaven because he would just be turning his heaven into the same train wreck we have made out of this life.

So how do imperfect creatures get into heaven unless they're forgiven? If god simply granted forgiveness to all, isn't everybody's sins abolished.

2. God can only let perfect people into his heaven but we are not perfect so how can God accomplish all this?

How do you know? And where is this written, in some cartoon you saw?

​

3. God must let sinners in to ruin heaven or somehow make us into perfect people.

Don't know where you come by this knowledge, but okay, for the sake of argument I'll go along with it.

4. God is both just and loving so whatever he does must satisfy both attributes.

Yeah, I always thought that it was pretty just and loving that those whose parents failed to obey his commands would be gobbled up by mom and dad.

Leviticus 26:29
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.​

5. His sense of justice means that sins must be punished,

Why? Why must they be punished? If this rule was written by god why couldn't he erase it? If he didn't write it then who did?

And don't you find it just a bit sadistic of god to invest all humans with sin and then punish them for having it?

If the crucifixion of Jesus expunges this requirement, why couldn't god do the same by the snap of his fingers? Did he suddenly lose the power to do as he wished?

Which brings us back to my original question, If god is omnipotent---able to do whatever he wanted---Why Was Jesus Necessary? Why bring his son into the world just to have him tortured and executed when he didn't have to?---The snap of the fingers option sitting up there on the kitchen shelf.

.

 

[Skwim]

The OP perspective is Western not Eastern. From the Eastern perspective some accept Jesus as a manifestation of the Avatar, the God-Man.

And to conceive of God and the Christ as separate entities is inaccurate. It appears as though there is a separate being, God, and a separate being, Christ, but that's illusion not reality from this perspective.

Don't see this as making any difference. According to the story Jesus (regardless of his nature) was sent to earth to abolish the sins of mankind. WHY? Why didn't god/Christ simply snap its fingers?

.

 

[wizanda]

Why did god even bother with Jesus?

Yeshua came to be murdered by mankind to prove who the Ravenous beings are, so then they can be removed in one go.

Along the way Yeshua established multiple precedents to show who the religious hypocritical bigots are, who don't really care about God; so when we come to the age of Godliness, all the fakes will have been removed.

It has been done as prophesied, and people are not wise enough to even see the basics.

why didn't he just forgive them?

In Isaiah 6 God forgives Isaiah just because of his faith.

In Luke 7:40-43 Yeshua points out that God can forgive debt, without the need of sin payment.

The Pharisaic beliefs are that God puts a debt of sins onto us, this is what Yeshua showed was flawed; yet Christianity is established by the Pharisees (John, Paul, and Simon).

In my opinion.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I appreciate your approval of my post. Would you like to discuss how salvation in the OT was just as connected to what Christ would do much later as it has been since he appeared in history?

Sure I don't mind, so long as you understand that it is not my intention to get you to stop being a Christian or to convert you to Judaism.

Basically, when salvation is discussed in the Tanakh, it refers to very literal, very earthly salvation, such as being saved from slavery in Egypt, or being saved from one's enemies. It has no connotations of being "saved from one' sins." That is strictly a Christian idea developed by Paul.

Although Judaism believes in the world to come, our emphasis is not on the afterlife. In fact, not once in the Torah is anything like heaven mentioned. There is nothing in God's covenant with Israel that promises eternal life. We are concerned with THIS life, and how well we live it. It is our responsibility to heal our world, and return it to the paradise it once was.

Probably not the answer you were expecting.

 

[Jim]

@Skwim Would you be interested in my view of it? My view of it is based on reading the Bible as if it were one of those novels composed of extracts from fictional documents like journals, encyclopedias, letters, and newspaper articles. I try to understand who the Jesus character is, only in the context of the story itself, considering what historians and all the Christian and anti-Christian factions say about him as possibilities, but without trusting any of them to tell me what to think about him, in the context of the whole Bible as one story.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You've read it?

A few parts of it, way way back when I was young and veloceraptors roamed the earth. I deeply enjoy comparative religion and have read a great many of the world's sacred texts. I have never read the Upanishads -- that's on my to do list-- and of course there are more sutras and native folklore than I could ever get through in my life time.

It's not actually the content that I object to. It's the audacity of taking old ideas and rehashing them and then marketing it. It would be like telling a "new" Native American Myth, or writing a new Epistle of Paul.

 

[pearl]

I'm not knowledgeable on the subject, but from what I learned in my university theology courses, the idea that Jesus was a sacrifice is only one of several accepted Catholic beliefs regarding what Jesus did.

For Jesus' purpose to be sacrificed for our sins makes Jesus an afterthought. There is an alternative reason, other than atonement.
Incarnation is God's first thought, the original design for all creation. In this model God is not an angry or vindictive God, demanding the suffering and death of Jesus as a payment for past sin. God is, instead, a gracious God, sharing divine life and love in creation and in the Incarnation in solidarity with man. This is the model presented by Duns Scotus, in the Church now Blessed Duns Scotus.