Why Women think they need Feminism...

[Starsoul]

Some great points made here,


[youtube]ZmpiuksInl4[/youtube]
Public Debate: Do Women Need Feminism? Natalie Bennett vs Zara Faris - YouTube



Share your Thoughts..

 

[9Westy9]

Could you summarise the video or post a few of the key points you'd like to discuss?

 

[Vinayaka]

[FONT=&quot]It’s our fault. We’re to blame. We start the wars, fight the fights, cause the divorces, gamble the money, drive the economy to bust, and horde the gold. We’re the pigs of the planet, the dogs of earth, keepers of the garbage, fuel for stupidity, and kings of injustice. We make stupid laws, practise patronage, keep the flames alive in the old boy’s clubs, continue stoking fires of ignorance, and act out our condescending ways amongst all. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We’re the lousy navigators who won’t use maps, the guys who spend too much time on the couch, the ones who can’t cook, the teachers who are full of themselves, the dirty old men, the creeps in the white vans. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There is no changing us. It’s far too late. You’re stuck with it. We like our booze, no herbal tea for us. No yoga, no sissy games either. We play hockey and ball. We drive fast cars, love to curse, go fishing, eat steak, and do the house repairs. We shop quickly, hate the malls, shake hands firmly, and carry the groceries. We play poker, not bridge. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We change the flat tires, walk on the outside, hail the cabs, and clean the garage. We know the difference between a Phillips and a Robertson, and we drive standards. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nothing’s changed principally about the treehouse, other than our age and its complexity. The “No Girls Allowed” sign still hangs proudly, if somewhat more subtle than when we were ten. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We give up, confess, hold our hands up, and wave the surrender flag. We’re males. We just can’t help it. We was born this way. [/FONT]

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Could you summarise the video or post a few of the key points you'd like to discuss?

The debate featured a prominent Green Party feminist leader, and a scholar in Arabic studies. The former's opening argument centered on the necessity of feminism throughout the world. The latter's opening argument centered on feminism as misleading in regards to justice for the genders and that feminism is a thinly veiled attempt at codifying gender privilege.

I watched an hour or so of the debate before I needed to get focused again on work, but I found it to be a respectful and well-researched debate. Both sides presented very different solutions to the problem of injustice and violence against women - or either gender - through either a theological system in Islam or a secular system where better representation is given in leadership positions.

I didn't watch the final 30 minutes, but we've seen various points made throughout debates on RF on women's rights.

[FONT=&quot]It’s our fault. We’re to blame. We start the wars, fight the fights, cause the divorces, gamble the money, drive the economy to bust, and horde the gold. We’re the pigs of the planet, the dogs of earth, keepers of the garbage, fuel for stupidity, and kings of injustice. We make stupid laws, practise patronage, keep the flames alive in the old boy’s clubs, continue stoking fires of ignorance, and act out our condescending ways amongst all. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We’re the lousy navigators who won’t use maps, the guys who spend too much time on the couch, the ones who can’t cook, the teachers who are full of themselves, the dirty old men, the creeps in the white vans. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There is no changing us. It’s far too late. You’re stuck with it. We like our booze, no herbal tea for us. No yoga, no sissy games either. We play hockey and ball. We drive fast cars, love to curse, go fishing, eat steak, and do the house repairs. We shop quickly, hate the malls, shake hands firmly, and carry the groceries. We play poker, not bridge. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We change the flat tires, walk on the outside, hail the cabs, and clean the garage. We know the difference between a Phillips and a Robertson, and we drive standards. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nothing’s changed principally about the treehouse, other than our age and its complexity. The “No Girls Allowed” sign still hangs proudly, if somewhat more subtle than when we were ten. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We give up, confess, hold our hands up, and wave the surrender flag. We’re males. We just can’t help it. We was born this way. [/FONT]

I can't tell if you're joking.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

[FONT=&quot]It’s our fault. We’re to blame. We start the wars, fight the fights, cause the divorces, gamble the money, drive the economy to bust, and horde the gold. We’re the pigs of the planet, the dogs of earth, keepers of the garbage, fuel for stupidity, and kings of injustice. We make stupid laws, practise patronage, keep the flames alive in the old boy’s clubs, continue stoking fires of ignorance, and act out our condescending ways amongst all. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We’re the lousy navigators who won’t use maps, the guys who spend too much time on the couch, the ones who can’t cook, the teachers who are full of themselves, the dirty old men, the creeps in the white vans. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There is no changing us. It’s far too late. You’re stuck with it. We like our booze, no herbal tea for us. No yoga, no sissy games either. We play hockey and ball. We drive fast cars, love to curse, go fishing, eat steak, and do the house repairs. We shop quickly, hate the malls, shake hands firmly, and carry the groceries. We play poker, not bridge. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We change the flat tires, walk on the outside, hail the cabs, and clean the garage. We know the difference between a Phillips and a Robertson, and we drive standards. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nothing’s changed principally about the treehouse, other than our age and its complexity. The “No Girls Allowed” sign still hangs proudly, if somewhat more subtle than when we were ten. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We give up, confess, hold our hands up, and wave the surrender flag. We’re males. We just can’t help it. We was born this way. [/FONT]

Is this a gaga parody?

 

[Vinayaka]

I can't tell if you're joking.

Indeed I was. Sorry.

 

[Sunstone]

[FONT=&quot]It’s our fault. We’re to blame. We start the wars, fight the fights, cause the divorces, gamble the money, drive the economy to bust, and horde the gold. We’re the pigs of the planet, the dogs of earth, keepers of the garbage, fuel for stupidity, and kings of injustice. We make stupid laws, practise patronage, keep the flames alive in the old boy’s clubs, continue stoking fires of ignorance, and act out our condescending ways amongst all. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We’re the lousy navigators who won’t use maps, the guys who spend too much time on the couch, the ones who can’t cook, the teachers who are full of themselves, the dirty old men, the creeps in the white vans. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There is no changing us. It’s far too late. You’re stuck with it. We like our booze, no herbal tea for us. No yoga, no sissy games either. We play hockey and ball. We drive fast cars, love to curse, go fishing, eat steak, and do the house repairs. We shop quickly, hate the malls, shake hands firmly, and carry the groceries. We play poker, not bridge. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We change the flat tires, walk on the outside, hail the cabs, and clean the garage. We know the difference between a Phillips and a Robertson, and we drive standards. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nothing’s changed principally about the treehouse, other than our age and its complexity. The “No Girls Allowed” sign still hangs proudly, if somewhat more subtle than when we were ten. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We give up, confess, hold our hands up, and wave the surrender flag. We’re males. We just can’t help it. We was born this way. [/FONT]

Do you think that's an important or widely held view among feminists?

 

[Sunstone]

Indeed I was. Sorry.

Never mind.

 

[Riverwolf]

Do you think that's an important or widely held view among feminists?

Certainly as a feminist, I don't think men are the cause of all the world's problems simply because we're men.

After all, that "men are the cause of all the world's problems" goes against the very definition of what feminism is, and so anyone who thinks that is not actually a feminist.

 

[Sunstone]

Certainly as a feminist, I don't think men are the cause of all the world's problems simply because we're men.

After all, that "men are the cause of all the world's problems" goes against the very definition of what feminism is, and so anyone who thinks that is not actually a feminist.

No true Scotsman? Aren't there some people who call themselves "feminists" who do believe males are pretty much the cause for all the world's problems? If so, I suspect they are a minority and that it would be smearing the majority of feminists to try to conflate them with that minority. But I imagine there are at least some kooks who think males are the cause of all the world's problems and who call themselves "feminists".

 

[Riverwolf]

No true Scotsman? Aren't there some people who call themselves "feminists" who do believe males are pretty much the cause for all the world's problems? If so, I suspect they are a minority and that it would be smearing the majority of feminists to try to conflate them with that minority. But I imagine there are at least some kooks who think males are the cause of all the world's problems and who call themselves "feminists".

Yeah, it's a no true scotsman, but I feel it's justified in this case.

Feminism is about getting equality between the sexes; i.e., destroying sexism. Regarding men as the root of all evil is sexist, and seeks to put men down. That runs counter to bringing equality to the sexes.

It's like a person who worships Satan and doesn't believe Jesus was a historical figure and regards his teachings as utter nonsense calling himself a Christian.

 

[Sunstone]

Yeah, it's a no true scotsman, but I feel it's justified in this case.

Feminism is about getting equality between the sexes; i.e., destroying sexism. Regarding men as the root of all evil is sexist, and seeks to put men down. That runs counter to bringing equality to the sexes.

It's like a person who worships Satan and doesn't believe Jesus was a historical figure and regards his teachings as utter nonsense calling himself a Christian.

Good point.

 

[Sunstone]

The latter's opening argument centered on feminism as misleading in regards to justice for the genders and that feminism is a thinly veiled attempt at codifying gender privilege.

How does it amount to a thinly disguised attempt at codifying gender privilege? That doesn't sound like mainstream feminism at all.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

How does it amount to a thinly disguised attempt at codifying gender privilege? That doesn't sound like mainstream feminism at all.

Not at all. This woman gave the counter-point to the debate, and presented an argument that feminism is not what it claims to be. Her position is that feminism claims to be about equal rights when she believes feminism presses for gender privilege in favor of females.

Her position is based off a theological assumption of observations in various cultures. I disagree with her stance and agree with much of what the feminist leader of the Green Party presented in the debate.

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm going to get flamed for stating this, but I wouldn't exactly expect someone in a hijab to present feminism accurately.

 

[Aquitaine]

I'm going to get flamed for stating this, but I wouldn't exactly expect someone in a hijab to present feminism accurately.

Believe it or not, I was thinking the exact same thing - I was just hoping someone else was going to say it first

 

[dust1n]

I like how, for two thousand years, the Western world has depicted women as the root of all evil, and now for the last six decades, some guys are extremely sensitive to even being concerned a contributor at all.

 

[WyattDerp]

I don't even care if women think they need feminism -- I'm a guy, I'm into woman, and at some point I will need a woman who can stand her own ground intellectually. So I need women to have feminism. All of them, and all of it. Also because potentially I might have a daughter at some point down the road, and I'd like her to have the option to have female friends who are able to reason and look into the mirror without make-up or rationalizations. I want to be with a fully fledged ******* human who is able to give birth to fully fledged humans. I'm not sure I deserve it, but that's what I want.

We need women with ribs out of which men can be made -- not just the other way around.

I like how, for two thousand years, the Western world has depicted women as the root of all evil, and now for the last six decades, some guys are extremely sensitive to even being concerned a contributor at all.

Hear hear.

Also, "equality" refers to fairness in treatment and assessment. It does NOT refer to that assessment having to have the exact same outcome for both genders in past and present. Testosterone can do things to people. That is undeniable. I'm not aware of smart men who would deny it, either. That's good enough for me. The fact that men do have a historical tendency to be stupid and brutal is hidden from the mediocre ones, they are forever doomed to complain and cry foul whenever someone is reaching for the mob to clean the pig's den up a *little*. I mean, can I deny that "white people" did a lot of crap? No. And I don't feel "attacked" by noting that, either. I am just thinking basic thougts and noting the obvious. (though of course, there are sexist women, and there are black supremacists ... but I will obsess about those when they become remotely significant, how about that?)

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I like how, for two thousand years, the Western world has depicted women as the root of all evil, and now for the last six decades, some guys are extremely sensitive to even being concerned a contributor at all.

I'll never forget the fire the ensued when Sandra Day O'Connor was appointed to the Supreme Court. I'd hear stuff like...

"Women's RIGHTS? Women aren't satisfied with just having RIGHTS anymore! They want to take over completely!!"

And they'd point to the one female justice sitting next to 8 other male justices as evidence.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I'll never forget the fire the ensued when Sandra Day O'Connor was appointed to the Supreme Court. I'd hear stuff like...

"Women's RIGHTS? Women aren't satisfied with just having RIGHTS anymore! They want to take over completely!!"

And they'd point to the one female justice sitting next to 8 other male justices as evidence.

And we will take over...slowly but surely :bat: