Why would a god select only the few?

[osgart]

It is always nice to see you again osgart.

I do not think anyone except God really knows the consequences of not believing in the afterlife.
People just 'claim' to know the consequences based upon 'their interpretation' of their scriptures...

Since our soul continues to exist in the spiritual world and carries all of our personality and character, which is the result of everything we believed and did in this world, I believe that when we cross over we will be whoever we had become in this world.

Since everything in life has consequences it makes sense that after we die there will be consequences for what we have done and what we have thereby become in this life

It has never been revealed in scriptures exactly what those consequences will be. It has not bee revealed what will happen to nonbelievers after they die. Although admittedly hellfire was in the Bible and the Qur'an, and I think it was used to scare people into believing, to put a fire under them so to speak.

Baha'u'llah never revealed the nature of the afterlife (spiritual world), so there is no way I can know what it will be like. All we have are certain assurances, if we are a confident believer.

“The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.

Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one 346 true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346

As for the form our soul will take on in the spiritual world, all we have been told is that it will not be a physical form, it will be a spiritual form.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

Hi Trailblazer, Good to see your still busy on RF.

I cannot deny that Abrahamic God of Islam and Christianity have eternal consequences for nonbelievers.

As for me personally, I'm very tired of that game that those religions play. I think these religions are a tragedy of human ignorance or worse human corruption. Then there is delusion on top.

I think people ignore the literal reading of ancient texts and try to romanticize every religion and make a better God of it.

In this day and age of information I'm surprised that so many people fall for ancient texts and the games they play with humanity.

God is a self serving device. Not an objectively realizable fact.

I think morality that is true justifies itself on its own. And we ought to be moral people because not only is it necessary for life to thrive, but it's what we love. If we are trying to be moral because of God that misses the point of morality. We should do it for ourselves and others because we delight in genuine goodness, and it's crucially necessary to life.

I am independently religious that there is something or someone that is an intelligent eternal source of all intelligence and life in the cosmos. But God is a concept that to me fails miserably. Worship is earned and should never be required. Especially on grounds of poor explanations.

I can imagine a God on my entire own that is far superior to all these other Gods. But that doesn't mean such God exists. The Gods of all these religions are all to human. And as far as I can tell humans are sophisticated animals. Do animals have souls, I think they do. Can humans rise above an animal nature? I think they can. And some do.

 

[Link]

God sent Messengers all over the earth.

 

[Shaul]

But G-d doesn’t choose the few, He chooses the many. The problem is few people choose Him.

 

[1213]

If one claims as the Abrahamic religions do that god is the one and only creator, why would that god only present himself to just a few isolated people in this world? ...

I don’t think it can be really said He has not presented Himself to others. And at least by Biblical point of view, all nations are from the people who knew God. For some reason many people have after that rejected God and replaced Him by gods that they have built themselves. There is usually no reason to present anything to people who don’t want to hear or learn.

But, people are not abandoned, for example because Jesus sent his disciples to all nations to declare the message. And also, because:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

Eternal life is promised for righteous and it is possible to count person righteous by that scripture, even if he has not heard of Jesus.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

And I really believe all people know inside of them that there is one true God, the Bible God, many just want to silence that voice and replace it with what they want to hear.

 

[Trailblazer]

The old failed Pascal's wager argument. It fails by assuming your own god is the right god and that that god is so dense that he can't tell the difference between a true believer and someone merely saying that he believes.

God does know, because God is all-knowing. God does not want pretenders, He wants sincere believers.

 

[Trailblazer]

I cannot deny that Abrahamic God of Islam and Christianity have eternal consequences for nonbelievers.

As for me personally, I'm very tired of that game that those religions play. I think these religions are a tragedy of human ignorance or worse human corruption. Then there is delusion on top.

Religion has certainly been corrupted by humans and that is one reason God sends another Messenger, to restore religion to what it was before it was corrupted by humans renew religion to its former springtime.

“All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines. When we look at religious history, we see that God has spoken to men precisely at times when they have reached the nadir of their degradation and cultural decadence. Moses came to Israel when it was languishing under the Pharaoh’s yoke, Christ appeared at a time when the Jewish Faith had lost its power and culture of antiquity was in its death those. Muhammad came to a people who lived in barbaric ignorance at the lowest level of culture and into a world in which the former religions had strayed far away from their origins and nearly lost their identity. The Bab addressed Himself to a people who had irretrievably lost their former grandeur and who found themselves in a state of hopeless decadence. Baha’u’llah came to a humanity which was approaching the most critical phase of its history.” (Udo Schaefer, The Light Shineth in Darkness, p. 24)

I think people ignore the literal reading of ancient texts and try to romanticize every religion and make a better God of it.

In this day and age of information I'm surprised that so many people fall for ancient texts and the games they play with humanity.

They do that because they cling to the past instead if recognizing the new Messenger of God, Baha'u'llah.

I think morality that is true justifies itself on its own. And we ought to be moral people because not only is it necessary for life to thrive, but it's what we love. If we are trying to be moral because of God that misses the point of morality. We should do it for ourselves and others because we delight in genuine goodness, and it's crucially necessary to life.

I agree, we should be moral just because that is the right thing to do, not because we are afraid of God. Fear of God is another matter, it is reverence and respect, not fear of going to hell. We should not worship God to get to heaven or avoid hell, but for His own sake.

I can imagine a God on my entire own that is far superior to all these other Gods. But that doesn't mean such God exists. The Gods of all these religions are all to human. And as far as I can tell humans are sophisticated animals. Do animals have souls, I think they do. Can humans rise above an animal nature? I think they can. And some do.

That is how God appears, human, because some religions have made God in their own image or they believe the anthropomorphic God of the Old Testament is the real God, but far from it, as God does not have human characteristics. In short, what most people believe today is far from what was originally revealed in scriptures because religion has been corrupted by humans over time. In order to clear up the confusion God sent a new Messenger, but since most people to date have rejected Him, the confusion persists. Nevertheless, the new religion is there for people who want to avail themselves if it.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If one claims as the Abrahamic religions do that god is the one and only creator, why would that god only present himself to just a few isolated people in this world? Were they the only humans he cared about? Did he not like the rest of the humans that occupied the Earth? Did he not even think to present himself to other people of the Earth? For those that follow this god and feel comfortable with him fine, but to claim him the one and only true god when he only presented to an extremely small group of people in only one location of the world seems cruel to ignore everyone else. That would imply that this perfect one god ignored most of the world of humans. On the other hand if this is just one god of many then fine but that is not the claim.

I find No ignoring of humans when God spoke to father Abraham - please see Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18
Please notice: ALL families of Earth and ALL nations of Earth...... ( None are excluded)
Messiah would come through father Abraham and that is why God dealt with (put up with) ancient Israel.
One purpose of Jesus coming 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth is: Resurrection Day.
( Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth in righteousness )
So, the resurrection will go back to righteous Abel and the rest of the righteous and unrighteous - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
So, everyone who never had the opportunity to learn about Jesus (majority of mankind) will have that opportunity when they are resurrected during Jesus' Millennial Reign over Earth for a thousand years.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God does know, because God is all-knowing. God does not want pretenders, He wants sincere believers.

Yes, God does Not want pretenders, but that does Not make God ALL knowing.
Please notice Revelation 7:9,14 because the 'great crowd of Armageddon survivors' is an UN-known number of people.
This is because God chooses to Not be ALL knowing.
The 'sincere believing' is the choice on our part and Not God's part.
We might want to consider being more than just 'sincere ' because the hate-filled Pharisees were sincere.
They were sincerely wrong - Matthew chapter 23.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.......................Eternal life is promised for righteous and it is possible to count person righteous by that scripture, even if he has not heard of Jesus.
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
And I really believe all people know inside of them that there is one true God, the Bible God, many just want to silence that voice and replace it with what they want to hear.

I'd like to tweak the ^ above ^ a little because of Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
So, the people who never heard of Jesus can be part of the resurrection of the unrighteous.
What they do 'after' they are resurrected will determine if they choose to be righteous ones - Romans 6:7

As far as Matthew chapter 25 that is speaking Not about those sleeping in death but about living people on Earth.
People alive on Earth at Jesus' coming Glory Time - Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
The figurative 'goats' will go away into eternal punishment -> destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35.
Perpetual death for them - Jeremiah 51:39; Jeremiah 51:57
Only those proving righteous will remain - Proverbs 2:21-22

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If one claims as the Abrahamic religions do that god is the one and only creator, why would that god only present himself to just a few isolated people in this world? Were they the only humans he cared about? Did he not like the rest of the humans that occupied the Earth? Did he not even think to present himself to other people of the Earth? For those that follow this god and feel comfortable with him fine, but to claim him the one and only true god when he only presented to an extremely small group of people in only one location of the world seems cruel to ignore everyone else. That would imply that this perfect one god ignored most of the world of humans. On the other hand if this is just one god of many then fine but that is not the claim.

You assume that He did nothing to make Himself known to peoples of all nations, which isn't the claim of any Abrahamic religion I'm aware of.

 

[Subduction Zone]

God does know, because God is all-knowing. God does not want pretenders, He wants sincere believers.

Which is why Pascal's wager is a failed argument.

And there is a better version of it now. If one is going to believe in a fake God then one should believe in the best fake God out there. It is only logical.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which is why Pascal's wager is a failed argument.

And there is a better version of it now. If one is going to believe in a fake God then one should believe in the best fake God out there. It is only logical.

And if one is going to believe in a real God then one should believe in the best real God out there. It is only logical.

 

[Trailblazer]

One purpose of Jesus coming 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth is: Resurrection Day.
( Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth in righteousness )
So, the resurrection will go back to righteous Abel and the rest of the righteous and unrighteous - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
So, everyone who never had the opportunity to learn about Jesus (majority of mankind) will have that opportunity when they are resurrected during Jesus' Millennial Reign over Earth for a thousand years.

I do not believe that Jesus is going to reign over Earth for 1000 years because that is not in the Bible.
I believe that we are living in the 1000 year reign of Baha'u'llah, who was the return of the Christ Spirit promised by Jesus as well as the Messiah prophesied by the Old Testament prophets..

Having received the Holy Spirit from God, both Jesus and Baha’u’llah brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. The Comforter and Spirit of truth are just titles for the man who brings the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a Comforter and Baha'u'llah was another Comforter who taught all things and testified of Jesus.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Baha'u'llah was also called the Spirit of truth because He guided us into all truth and He glorified Jesus. He did not speak of Himself, He only spoke what He heard from the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit speaking through Baha'u'llah that taught us all things, not the man.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, God does Not want pretenders, but that does Not make God ALL knowing.

So you think there are things that God does not know?

 

[Bear Wild]

You assume that He did nothing to make Himself known to peoples of all nations, which isn't the claim of any Abrahamic religion I'm aware of.

But in fact there is no evidence that this god communicated anything other than to those people he choose in the middle east. Give one piece of evidence that this god communicated to other people prior to the spread of Christianity. Any evidence at all or are you saying the most of the people were unwilling to listen to the one true god? Any evidence at all? The bible I know indicates he chose the people he wanted to communicate to and there is nothing to show he had any interest in anyone else. In fact there is much in the old testament that shows these were his chosen people and there was no effort to communicate to people in China, North America, Africa, South America, Australia or Europe.

 

[Bear Wild]

I find No ignoring of humans when God spoke to father Abraham - please see Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18
Please notice: ALL families of Earth and ALL nations of Earth...... ( None are excluded)
Messiah would come through father Abraham and that is why God dealt with (put up with) ancient Israel.
One purpose of Jesus coming 1,000-year governmental reign over Earth is: Resurrection Day.
( Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth in righteousness )
So, the resurrection will go back to righteous Abel and the rest of the righteous and unrighteous - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
So, everyone who never had the opportunity to learn about Jesus (majority of mankind) will have that opportunity when they are resurrected during Jesus' Millennial Reign over Earth for a thousand years.

Oh so the bible can be found in all countries and not just the middle east. Oh my. Where are these bibles in ancient China, Australia, and the rest of the world. Oh that's right they do not exist because this god only like a very few people of one nationality and one race. What a prejudice god.

 

[Bear Wild]

I don’t think it can be really said He has not presented Himself to others. And at least by Biblical point of view, all nations are from the people who knew God. For some reason many people have after that rejected God and replaced Him by gods that they have built themselves. There is usually no reason to present anything to people who don’t want to hear or learn.

But, people are not abandoned, for example because Jesus sent his disciples to all nations to declare the message. And also, because:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

You are quoting the literary history of one single group of people of one nationality. Please quote from a source from ancient China, Pre-Christian Europe, or any literary group of people outside of the Jewish influence. I actually challenge you to find the proof and prove me wrong. Quoting the Jewish or Early Christian text is meaningless.
Eternal life is promised for righteous and it is possible to count person righteous by that scripture, even if he has not heard of Jesus.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

And I really believe all people know inside of them that there is one true God, the Bible God, many just want to silence that voice and replace it with what they want to hear.

 

[Bear Wild]

Good questions.....
God did not choose Israel because they were a superior race of people....good grief!....he wanted to exterminate them at times because they could never do as they were told. But there was a reason why he chose just one small nation to make an example of....both in a positive and a negative way. It was a teaching exercise as well as a means to send his son in to the world with clear identification.

Abraham was the most righteous man in the world at the time, so he made a promise to him that through his offspring, the Savior would come.....in a specific tribe, at a specific location, and at a specific time, so that his people would be able to identify him.....but they didn't want him because he did not fulfill their false expectations, and hence, they made excuses to do away with him (as they had done to God's prophets previously.) But through his interactions with this nation, and their obligation to keep his laws (given to no other people) he provided a record so that future generations could see what was required of them, and in turn, what he would do for them if they followed his instructions.....and what would happen if they failed.


There was no point at that time because he was making history with this one nation and creating precedents for his future worshippers who would come out of all nations as he had promised Abraham in the beginning.

Those outside of that nation were virtually left to their own devices and gods as they lived and died for the thousands of years that have intervened. Since the Bible teaches that all who have died are still in their graves, he has promised a resurrection to all of them, no matter what gods they worshipped in their ignorance. Knowledge is what obligates one to worship the true God. If you don't know him, you can't worship him. If you are unaware of something then your actions are not deliberate. No ignorant person will pay for their sin. Jesus did it for them......but there will be obligation on all who become aware of their obligation after their resurrection, but who fail to fulfill it for whatever reason.



His original promise to Abraham was.....(Genesis 22:17-18)
"I will surely bless you and I will surely multiply your offspring like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand on the seashore, and your offspring will take possession of the gate of his enemies. 18 And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’”

So the family who came from Abraham's grandson Jacob, were going to become this great nation whom God would protect and bless as long as they obeyed his commands. No enemy would be able to defeat them in the name of its god, because Israel's God was superior. Time and again, he demonstrated this. But when Israel rebelled and disobeyed their God, he allowed their enemies to wipe the floor with them.

It was going to be at the time when this object lesson was nearing completion that he would cleanse a people out of all nations and have them declare the good news of his incoming Kingdom which will destroy all failed human rulership, and replace them with the rulership that humans should have had in the beginning.....the one we have never had the pleasure of enjoying. They threw that away in favor of ruling themselves, and we have been reaping the consequences ever since.....I don't think that most people have any idea what we lost.....

Instead of this.......................................................we have this.

God will take his planet back and reward those who never lost faith in him....that is what I believe....

God's Kingdom will "come" and only then will we see God's will "done on earth as it is in heaven" ....that is how the Bible explains it to me.

I was hoping to hear from you. You know you make it hard to argue when you put all of those wonderful pictures of the natural world. I could do without the buses and cars and smokes stacks though. Oh I think you were making a point with Natural world good and man's destructive influence bad.

I never met Abraham and I am sure he was a nice guy but not the only one in the course of human history. I know how the bible explains it but that book was written by one small group of people in a very large world. I know you find meaning in it and I will respect that even though you have not seen the light of evolution. Thanks for the input from down under.

 

[Bear Wild]

Because societies and tribes tend to make up Gods who likes them above the rest.

Ciao

- viole

So true.

 

[Clara Tea]

Because it's a false view of God and not universal in the Abrahamic religions to boot. For example, in Judaism:

"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Why? Because every human being has a root in the Unity, and to reject the minutest particle of the Unity is to reject it all.” Baal Shem Tov

“To me, religions are like languages: no language is true or false; all languages are of human origin; each language reflects and shapes the civilization that speaks it; there are things you can say in one language that you cannot say as well in another; and the more languages you learn, the more nuanced your understanding of life. Judaism is my mother tongue yet in matters of the spirit I strive to be multilingual. In the end, however, the deepest language of the soul is silence.” Rabbi Rami Shapiro

"Love thy neighbor" because everyone (even thy neighbor) is God's child.

The Christian religion is based on the Jewish religion, and Jesus was Jewish. How can you say that the Jewish religion is wrong and the Christian religion is right if the Christian religion is really a part of it?

Trappists also believe in silence....but the word of mouth spreading of their religion isn't working out.