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Why would God create Evolution?

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Warning, lengthy post ahead!

I didn't watch that video yet, but I will be able to do so tonight. Once I've seen it, I'll try to address the issues presented in it more specifically. I can see one thing that I can address from the preview: "Fossils date the rocks and rocks date the fossils" is only circular reasoning if you take it as a stand-alone statement without outside context. The statement actually means "if you date a fossil, then you know the age of the rock it was contained in" and "if you date the rock, you know the age of the fossil contained within it".

I'll see what I can address about common creationist concerns regarding radiological dating:

(1) We don't know what the original isotope content of a rock was when it first formed.
Scientists actually do have ways of knowing what the original isotopic ratios were in a rock when it first formed. There are two things that can tell us the answer: (1) basic chemical and physical laws, and (2) isochron plots.

Chemical and Physical Laws -

When a rock first forms, it condenses from a molten state into a solid state. Let's take lava flows from a volcano as an example. Lava contains a variety of chemicals, including both radioactive and stable elements. Potassium-40, a radioactive form of potassium, decays into either calcium-40 (89.1% of the time) or argon-40 (10.9% of the time). Argon is a noble gas which almost never reacts with other elements (this is only known to occur in special, cryogenic laboratory circumstances). When potassium decays into argon when the lava is liquid, the gaseous argon bubbles out of the lava and escapes into the atmosphere. As long as the lava is in a molten state, argon cannot accumulate in it. This is how we know that volcanic rocks originally contained no argon-40 when they first formed. This has been confirmed by tests performed on recently solidified lava flows; no argon is present in such fresh deposits.

Once lava cools into solid rock, however, the situation changes. Decaying potassium still produces argon, but it is trapped within the rock and accumulates over time. Since potassium-40 decays into argon-40 at a constant rate (it is not affected by humidity, temperature, pressure, etc.), one can use the ratio of argon-40 to potassium-40 in a rock as a measure of how long argon-40 has been accumulating in the rock.

Uranium-lead dating also has chemical laws working in its favor. When zircon crystals first form, uranium atoms can take the place of zirconium atoms in the crystal matrix and form impurities. Lead atoms, however, cannot do this and are actively excluded from zircon crystals during formation. It's like trying to mix water and oil; it doesn't work. For this reason, we know that freshly-formed zircon crystals are lead-free.

Unlike with potassium-argon dating, uranium-lead dating techniques can actually utilize two separate decay chains: uranium-235 decaying to lead-206 and uranium-238 decaying to lead-207. Since the half-life of uranium-235 is very different from uranium-238 (4.47 billion years vs. 704 million years), measurement of both of these isotopic ratios in a single sample can provide extra confirmation that the measured dates are correct (if both the U-235 method and the U-238 method agree with each other on the age of the rock, then one can be confident that the age is correct. If the techniques were faulty, you would expect the measured ages given by the two different techniques to disagree with each other).

Isochron Plots

Another way of knowing the original isotope concentrations in a rock is to make an isochron plot (in this case, I will use the example of a uranium-lead isochron plot). First, many different kinds of rocks are taken from the same source bedrock and their isotopic ratios are measured. Ideally, the rocks would contain several different types of minerals. Since each mineral has its own unique chemical properties, some of these minerals will dissolve uranium better than others and some of those minerals will dissolve lead better than others (this is an occasion where lead dissolving in the rock is acceptable).

A graph is drawn out with two axes. On one axis, the ratio of radiogenic lead-to-non-radiogenic lead is written (radiogenic lead being isotopes of lead that result from the decay of uranium (such as lead-206) and non-radiogenic lead being isotopes which do not (such as lead-204). On the other, the ratio of uranium-to-radiogenic lead is written. The ratios measured from the rocks are then placed on the graph.

Now, if the samples are not contaminated and have not lost lead over time due to damage to the rocks, then all of the samples will form a straight line on the plot. If there is contamination or if weather or geological events have caused lead to be lost from the rocks, then the sample will not fall on a straight line. This is very important because this trend will reveal whether the dates can be trusted or not. Geologists therefore take pains to carefully examine rocks and exclude those they have experienced weathering or geologic disturbances. If the samples are all in a line, then they have passed the first test of being trustworthy and the next step can be taken (I'll get to that a little later). One of the important attributes of the isochron plot is that it can be used to establish what the original uranium-lead content of the rock was when it was first formed. As rocks age, their position on the graph will change slightly, with those further from the Y-axis moving more than those close to the Y-axis. As a matter of fact, those samples that are exactly on the Y-axis will not move at all, no matter what the age of the samples are. This place where the graph line intercepts the Y-axis is what the original uranium-lead isotope ratios were when the rocks first form:

Here is a graph showing this. Look at the red dot. It represents the original isotope ratio and does not change no matter how old the samples become over time: An Animated Isochron Diagram

(2) We do not know that decay rates have always been constant.
Actually, we've got a lot of evidence that decay rates are constant. Since atomic nuclei are sealed away deep within an atom, external factors such as chemical corrosion, pressure, temperature and humidity do not affect the rate that they decay. In order to affect the rate of decay, you have to affect the nucleus itself. In order for pressures and temperature to be high enough to affect the nucleus, you'd have to have extraordinary circumstances which can breach the protective electron shell that surrounds it. This kinds of things may occur with temperatures and pressures in the super-heated plasma in the Sun's core, but you're not going to have that happen naturally on Earth.

Now, is there anything that can affect the decay rate of nuclei? The answer is yes. Radiation, for example, can do it under the right circumstances. Neutrons released during nuclear fission cause a massive increase in decay rates. Out-of-control nuclear decay is basically what causes atomic bombs to explode. However, these events require extremely specific circumstances which almost never occur on Earth naturally (although there is the so-called "Oklo natural reactor" which is thought to have initiated fission. Evidence for this is left behind by a depletion of U-235. If this had happened commonly on Earth, we'd expect to find a depletion of U-235 in many other rocks. Also, non-fissile radioactive isotopes such as potassium-40 would not be subject to this).

An external source of extreme cosmic radiation might conceivably speed up decay rates. However, this would leave behind testable evidence. For example, rocks on the bottom of the oceans would be much more heavily shielded from cosmic rays than those on the surface (which would make sub-oceanic rocks look significantly younger than surface rocks). Also, rocks would be less affected by the radiation as they are deeper in the Earth. This would cause deep rocks to appear younger than shallow rocks (the opposite has been measured to be true. In practice, deep rocks are measured as older than surface rocks: Are Radioactive Dates Consistent?).

Since different elements absorb neutrons at different rates, different isotopes would have their decay accelerated by different amounts. If a radiation event had occurred in the past, then different dating methods peformed on the same rock samples would always be in disagreement with each other. Yet different dating methods do agree with each other: Are Radioactive Dating Methods Consistent?.

Radiation from space of such massive intensity would also kill all life on Earth. It's apparent from these facts that there was not some extreme radiation event from the past that accelerated decay.
 
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Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Original post was too long. Second part is here:

(3) We do not know that there hasn't been contamination.
Scientists are well aware that rocks can and have been contaminated over time. There are, however, ways that such contamination can be detected and methods of avoiding collecting contaminated rocks. I've already mentioned the avoidance of weathered/geologically-disturbed rocks and the testing for linearity on an isochron plot. For potassium-argon dating, it is also important to sufficiently remove atmospheric argon that has adsorbed to the surface of a rock. Failure to do so can result in inflated age estimates as well as inconsistent age estimates from the same rock. This is why proper training must be ensured to make sure proper decontamination is achieved. Not just anyone can grab a rock and measure isotope ratios and expect the result to be meaningful. If you get several different dates from the same rock, you can be sure that the person doing the measuring has made a mistake of some type, since the isotopic ratios of the rock have remained constant from one measurement to the next.

Another source of contamination is the melting and mixing of two different rocks of two different ages. Rocks that result from mixing can actually pass the isochron plot test and will look linear on the graph. In order to detect mixing, a different kind of plot can be prepared to test for it. This is called a "mixing plot". A mixing plot is made in a similar way to a normal isochron plot, but the axes are different (in the case of uranium-lead, the Y-axis measures the amount of radiogenic lead divided by non-radiogenic lead and the X-axis measures the inverse of radiogenic lead plus non-radiogenic lead). If all of the samples fall in a straight line, this actually demonstrates that there has been mixing. If the samples fall randomly across the graph, then there has been no mixing and the original isochron graph can be trusted as reliable.

Further reading: Isochron Dating

Radiological dating isn't anywhere near the puzzle game that macro-evolution is, it is much more straightforward. Dating techniques are objective measurements that can be repeated. Bias and interpretation have no affect on what ratio of isotopes exist in a sample. Dating doesn't depend on evolution at all. If evolution was false, dating techniques would still remain valid.
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Two different varieties within the kind. Get a 6 year old kid and put a siberian husky, coyote, a wolf, and a tiger in front of him and tell him to point out the different "kind" of animal, and I assure you the kid will point to the tiger. It is clear that a husky and a wolf are the same kind of animal.

What point are you trying to make? Wolves and African Hunting dogs are a different 'kind' anyway (assuming you mean species, given that macro-evolution refers to speciation), they can not interbreed and are two distinct species of dogs, so it demonstrates that there is more than one 'kind' of dog. Tigers share a common ancestor with dogs by the way - so if you do not mean species by 'kind', then Tigers and Wolves are the same 'kind' (carnivora).

Looking at your example - say that 6 year old is faced with a domestic cat, a tiger and a leopard. They are distinct and seperate species, and so if you include them in the same kind - then you are the same 'kind' as a chimpanzee.


Right, which is why you have so many varieties within every "kind" of animal. You have many different varieties of dogs, but they are all DOGS.
Once again I ask, so what? There are many different varieties of mammal, but they are all mammals. You have many different varieties of vertebrates, but they are all vertebrates.

Animalia are all animals, even though they range from plankton to dogs - but they are all animals.

Some animalia evolved into chordata - but they are all chordates.

Some chordata evolved into vertebrates, even though they range from sea squirts to dogs - but they are all vertebrates.

Some vertebrates evolved into mammals, even though they range from whales to dogs - but they are all mammals, and mammals give birth to mammals.

Some mammals evolved into carnivora, even though they range from cats to dogs - but they are all carnivora, and carnivora give birth to carnivora.

Some carnivora evolved into panthera, even though they range from cats to tigers -but they are still panthera. And panthera give birth to panthera.



And they are all limited to the micro-level.
No, that is a lie you have been taught. Evolutionary transitions above the macro level have been observed many times, in the field, in the fossil record, in genetic analysis and directly in the lab. You are denying something that was proven by direct observation a generation before you were born.



So if Stephen Hawking was to go to jail, he would not be a reliable source to talk to regarding singularity theorems? Makes no sense.
Stephen Hawkins is a physicist, he is qualified in his field. Hovind is not. Hovind is a fraud, he has no scientific qualifications whatsoever.
 
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Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
This is Patriot University where Hovind got his degree. No, seriously.

PatriotU_Crop.jpg


And this is University of Oxford where Hawking's got his degree:

University-of-Oxford-colleges2-528x396.jpg


Interesting fact about Hovind. He basically lied to the Federal Government to avoid taxes and produced videos to teach people how to do the same.
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Hovind spent his career telling lies - he called himself Dr Hovind, but does not hold a doctorate. His doctorate came from the mail order doctorate mill Ouroborous identified above.

He also claimed to have been a science teacher for many years even though he has no qualifications as a science teacher and was never employed as a science teacher.

His favourite challenge to science was the unfortunately self defeating argument that Call of the Wild has clearly been suckered by - the dogs only produce dogs nonsense.

Of course dogs only give birth to dogs, if a dog gave birth to a non-dog that would be evidence AGAINST evolution, not for it.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Hovind spent his career telling lies - he called himself Dr Hovind, but does not hold a doctorate. His doctorate came from the mail order doctorate mill Ouroborous identified above.

He also claimed to have been a science teacher for many years even though he has no qualifications as a science teacher and was never employed as a science teacher.

His favourite challenge to science was the unfortunately self defeating argument that Call of the Wild has clearly been suckered by - the dogs only produce dogs nonsense.

Of course dogs only give birth to dogs, if a dog gave birth to a non-dog that would be evidence AGAINST evolution, not for it.

All this talk about dogs.
Saw a documentary about breeding the 'wild' out of foxes.
It can be done within a few generations.
They also revert within a few generations.

How about breeding the 'wild' out of Man?

Seems to me that is precisely what was done in the garden event of Genesis.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
All this talk about dogs.
Saw a documentary about breeding the 'wild' out of foxes.
It can be done within a few generations.
They also revert within a few generations.

How about breeding the 'wild' out of Man?

Seems to me that is precisely what was done in the garden event of Genesis.

What are you trying to say? Wildness is not a genetic trait.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
What are you trying to say? Wildness is not a genetic trait.

You really think so?
Some species can be domesticated....some not.

Not common to breed the fox.
Or the wolf.

We do so...but at risk.

I knew a guy breeding wolves.
His daughter lost an arm to one.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
You really think so?
Some species can be domesticated....some not.

Not common to breed the fox.
Or the wolf.

We do so...but at risk.

I knew a guy breeding wolves.
His daughter lost an arm to one.
So what? What is your point?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
So what? What is your point?

Evolution is a matter of chemistry.
Chemistry has rules.
Spirit has rules.

I see this life as a means to form spirit, unique and varied.
The rule is ....hands off.

However....

By our very own practice, Man knows that temperament does have some base in chemical makeup.

Did God create evolution?....I think so.
Does He stand back and allow Man dominion?.....yeah.

If Man is a creature that can learn to manipulate.....
how then do we say...... God cannot?

Hence the Genesis account.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Evolution is a matter of chemistry.
Chemistry has rules.
Spirit has rules.

I see this life as a means to form spirit, unique and varied.
The rule is ....hands off.

However....

By our very own practice, Man knows that temperament does have some base in chemical makeup.

Did God create evolution?....I think so.
Does He stand back and allow Man dominion?.....yeah.

If Man is a creature that can learn to manipulate.....
how then do we say...... God cannot?

Hence the Genesis account.

Buddy, your posts are just gibberish.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Come on guys, let's not poison the well here. Attack the argument, not the person making the argument. This isn't about who went to the bigger or better school. An honest individual can be mistaken and even a liar can tell the truth. Focus on the merit of Hovind's arguments, not his personal credentials.

Okay, now I have actually watched the video. It seems that I did more or less address this in a previous post, but I will go further. Hovind makes it sound like "fossils date the layers and layers date the fossils" is the one and only way that geologists and paleontologists ever get dates. If that was true, it would be patently ridiculous and I would immediately abandon all certainties I have about common descent. However, rock layers have been dated using radiometric techniques. I've provided links in one of my previous posts of examples where radiometric dating has been used to determine layer ages (and that it is consistent with "deeper is older").

What I imagine is the case is that once extensive radiometric dating has been done on one particular layer (we'll call it "Layer X") in many different locations, it then becomes confidently known what the age of Layer X is without having to perform future radiometric dating on that particular layer. So if dating has revealed Layer X as being 50 million years old, then you can dig up other samples from Layer X in the future and know that they are also 50 million years old.

Since we know that any fossils (which we will call Fossil X) inside of Layer X must be in the same age range as Layer X, then we also know that Fossil X is ~50 million years old without having to date it radiometrically. If, however, there are any uncertainties about its age, one can potentially still date Fossil X radiometrically for further confirmation.

Alternatively, if a wide number of examples of Fossil Y have been radiometrically dated to 3 million years old, and all examples of Fossil Y are found in Layer Y, then you can be confident that Layer Y is also 3 million years old.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Come on guys, let's not poison the well here. Attack the argument, not the person making the argument. This isn't about who went to the bigger or better school. An honest individual can be mistaken and even a liar can tell the truth. Focus on the merit of Hovind's arguments, not his personal credentials.

Okay, now I have actually watched the video. It seems that I did more or less address this in a previous post, but I will go further. Hovind makes it sound like "fossils date the layers and layers date the fossils" is the one and only way that geologists and paleontologists ever get dates. If that was true, it would be patently ridiculous and I would immediately abandon all certainties I have about common descent. However, rock layers have been dated using radiometric techniques. I've provided links in one of my previous posts of examples where radiometric dating has been used to determine layer ages (and that it is consistent with "deeper is older").

What I imagine is the case is that once extensive radiometric dating has been done on one particular layer (we'll call it "Layer X") in many different locations, it then becomes confidently known what the age of Layer X is without having to perform future radiometric dating on that particular layer. So if dating has revealed Layer X as being 50 million years old, then you can dig up other samples from Layer X in the future and know that they are also 50 million years old.

Since we know that any fossils (which we will call Fossil X) inside of Layer X must be in the same age range as Layer X, then we also know that Fossil X is ~50 million years old without having to date it radiometrically. If, however, there are any uncertainties about its age, one can potentially still date Fossil X radiometrically for further confirmation.

Alternatively, if a wide number of examples of Fossil Y have been radiometrically dated to 3 million years old, and all examples of Fossil Y are found in Layer Y, then you can be confident that Layer Y is also 3 million years old.

Credentials matter when you falsely claim to have them. In this case attacking Hovind for claiming false credentials is appropriate. That he is clearly lying about his credentials does indeed influence the reliability of his arguments.

We are talking about a person who claimed that triceratops were just overgrown Jackson's chameleons and that T-Rex were vegetarians with those 8" incisors created for eating fruit. Making those sorts of claims makes the claim to be qualified in those areas significant.

In regard to dating methods by the way, the way that they are determined to be accurate is by comparison with other dating methods. Carbon dating for example can be compared to tree rings, ice cores, permafrost, retro-viral markers and so on. So for the date of the earth as an example there are more than a dozen different dating methods, and somresult is confirmed by the fact that all of those different methods yield the same results.

I note that the claim that carbon dating fossils and the earth is innaccurate recurrs constantly in creationist apologetics - even though carbon dating is not used to date either fossils or the earth.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
Come on guys, let's not poison the well here. Attack the argument, not the person making the argument. This isn't about who went to the bigger or better school. An honest individual can be mistaken and even a liar can tell the truth. Focus on the merit of Hovind's arguments, not his personal credentials.

Okay, now I have actually watched the video. It seems that I did more or less address this in a previous post, but I will go further. Hovind makes it sound like "fossils date the layers and layers date the fossils" is the one and only way that geologists and paleontologists ever get dates. If that was true, it would be patently ridiculous and I would immediately abandon all certainties I have about common descent. However, rock layers have been dated using radiometric techniques. I've provided links in one of my previous posts of examples where radiometric dating has been used to determine layer ages (and that it is consistent with "deeper is older").

What I imagine is the case is that once extensive radiometric dating has been done on one particular layer (we'll call it "Layer X") in many different locations, it then becomes confidently known what the age of Layer X is without having to perform future radiometric dating on that particular layer. So if dating has revealed Layer X as being 50 million years old, then you can dig up other samples from Layer X in the future and know that they are also 50 million years old.

Since we know that any fossils (which we will call Fossil X) inside of Layer X must be in the same age range as Layer X, then we also know that Fossil X is ~50 million years old without having to date it radiometrically. If, however, there are any uncertainties about its age, one can potentially still date Fossil X radiometrically for further confirmation.

Alternatively, if a wide number of examples of Fossil Y have been radiometrically dated to 3 million years old, and all examples of Fossil Y are found in Layer Y, then you can be confident that Layer Y is also 3 million years old.

We can then continue....
There is a well known layer of sediment found all over the world.
Below that layer certain types of fossil....
above that layer creatures of smaller size, most not more than 50lbs.

I would continue to insist God is behind the evolutionary scheme of chemistry.
I would even go further to say...He can tweak the scenario with catastrophic events.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Come on guys, let's not poison the well here. Attack the argument, not the person making the argument. This isn't about who went to the bigger or better school. An honest individual can be mistaken and even a liar can tell the truth. Focus on the merit of Hovind's arguments, not his personal credentials.
True.

But he did make a business out of anti-evolution propaganda and built that business on lies. He didn't pay taxes for his workers, intentionally. He lied about his credentials. And it goes on.

There's a difference between someone who occasionally lies or do something stupid, but Hovind left a trail of many lies, a life built on deception. Even if he told the truth at times, and even if he had valid arguments at times, he was notorious for spinning science and intentionally overlooking arguments and evidence. He even did it during debates, while getting the fact presented to him. He could repeat the same false claims only five minutes later.

Something is just wrong with him. What it is, I don't know. But he's not someone I'd trust groom my dogs or give me tips on where to wash my cars even.

Basically, there are better sources to pick from for arguments. I rather have an argument from Ham than Hovind.

--- edit

And another interesting side note to Ken Hovind is that he's been criticized by other Young Earth Creationists for using fraudulent statements and misconstruing the truth. Of all sources of information, claims, or arguments, he's the last one to go to.

Hovind has been criticized by other creationists, including young Earth creationists and old Earth creationists, who believe that many of his arguments are invalid and, consequently, undermine their causes. Disagreements over how to respond to Hovind's claims have themselves contributed to acrimony between creationist organizations. The Australian and U.S. arms of Answers in Genesis (AiG) were critical of Hovind[72] after he had criticized[73] a position document from Creation Ministries International, "Arguments we think creationists should NOT use".[74] In particular AiG criticized Hovind for "persistently us[ing] discredited or false arguments"[75] and said Hovind's claims are "self-refuting".[76]
Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind#Criticism_from_creationists)
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Well first off, I disagree that "most" Christian theologians accept it...second, macroevolution does contradict Christian theism.

I have seen the surveys on Christian theologians but can't find this on a short search, but this you might find interesting:
This view is generally accepted by major Christian churches, including the Catholic Church, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Episcopal Church USA, and some other mainline Protestant denominations; virtually all Jewish denominations; and other religious groups that lack a literalist stance concerning some holy scriptures. Various biblical literalists have accepted or noted openness to this stance, including theologian B.B. Warfield and evangelist Billy Graham. A 2007 poll showed that acceptance among American Buddhists, Hindus and Jews was higher than among any Christian groups (graph below). One recent survey, conducted by physicist Max Tegmark, on “of how different US faith communities view origins science, particularly evolution and Big Bang cosmology.” Although “Gallup reports that 46% of Americans believe that God created humans in their present form less than 10,000 years ago", it found "only 11% belong to religions openly rejecting evolution." -- Acceptance of evolution by religious groups - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I've asked you to give me the scripture at which evolution is even hinted, and I didn't get it yet.

Some have noted that God made all in six days (yom), but sometimes "yom" can stand for a much longer period of time. Even if it were only six days, that would involve an evolution in and of itself. However, I don't favor this interpretation.


Um, myths can imply false theology...and the understanding of evolution is simple...evolution is the theory that the animals of today came from different kinds of animals from yesterday. That is the theory in a nut shell, and it doesn't take a rocket scientists to understand it. When you take away the fluff and feathers...and the bio-babble that comes with it, that is what the theory entails.

So you don't think that all animals came from previous animals?

But what we do know is this; the universe began to exist at some point in the finite past, and this beginning is BEST explained with the postulation of an all-powerful supernatural Deity...and as far as I can tell, the Genesis 1:1 account provides the best narrative...that the universe began to exist..."In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth".

This absolutely provides not one shred of evidence, especially since there are other possibilities.

LOL...it NEVER fails...NEVER. Whenever a person doesn't buy into the evolution crap, and calls the theory in to question as a skeptic...they get accused of being ignorant of the theory. "You just don't understand it". "You just dont know what evolution is"....as if only a select few people on this earth actually understands the theory and the rest of us are just dumb lol. It never fails.

But you keep making one mistake after another, so the point is easy to establish. You keep on adding things to the ToE that simply either aren't there or are only hypotheses.

And as for all of these so called Christians that believe in evolution...they've either duped themselves into believing the theory...or they've been duped by others into believing the theory...but they are screwed either way.

Oh, so they're "duped" but you aren't? And why would they be "screwed"? Where in your scriptures does it state or imply that salvation is based on a literal rendering of the creation accounts according to Genesis?

Hypothesis' are guesses....give me your single best guess on how you can get consciousness from unconsciousness...how can non-living material begin to start "thinking"?

Hypotheses are not "guesses", so again your ignorance of even basic science is showing. Scientific hypotheses must have at least some supporting evidence.

You know how the Trinity is the doctrine that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all equally God? Well, there is a trinity doctrine with evolution; Evolution, Time, and Faith.

"Faith" is not an element of science-- researching in order to try and find evidence one way or another is.

If you don't see the scam/con involved with this, I can't help you.

It is you whom has fallen victim to the "scam", as I did when I was much younger.

Have a safe move..and remember...dogs produce dogs, cats produce cats, fish produce fish...and until you see any exception to this, lets stop with the voodoo science, ok?

Thanks, and evolution produced all of the above, but God could well have had a hand in it.:yes:
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Well first off, I disagree that "most" Christian theologians accept it...

You might also find this interesting:

A 2012 Barna Group report indicates that pastors (clergy) hold a variety of views on how God creates. That’s not surprising. Here’s the chart indicating that diversity:... If you dig deeper, however, you’ll find interesting things. For instance, the majority of Southern Baptist clergy affirm young-earth creation. It may surprise you, though, that pastors of large churches are more likely to accept theistic evolution than pastors of midsize or small churches.

Science and Bible

I was happy to see in the Barna report that three out of four pastors think science and faith questions are important. But I found it interesting how pastors who affirm a young earth view thought about Christian witness compared with pastors who affirm theistic evolution. The report shows that 85% of pastors who affirm a young earth position agreed with statement, “Christian disagreement on matters of creation and evolution is compromising our witness to the world.” However, only about 1/3 of pastors who affirm theistic evolution agreed with that statement.

In comparison, about 2/3 of pastors who affirm theistic evolution agreed with the statement, “The church’s posture toward science prevents many non-Christians from accepting Christianity.” And a majority of young earth view pastors disagreed with that statement.

I’m still processing what this difference might mean, but it appears that clergy who affirm a young earth view are “playing defense” against culture. They want to avoid appearing to compromise. Clergy who accept theistic evolution, however, are “playing offense” to reach non-Christians. They worry that issues of science – e.g., evolution – are an obstacle to accepting Christ. This is, of course, a generalization. But it’s a generalization suggested by the statistics, and it rings true to my own experience in various conversations with those on various sides of these issues.

Many who oppose theistic evolution do so, they say, because of the biblical concerns evolution raises. And yet the majority of all clergy whom Barna surveyed agreed with the statement that “some portions of the Bible are symbolic.” Not surprisingly, a higher percentage of pastors who accept theistic evolution say the Bible has symbolic elements. At stake, obviously, is how we decide which parts of the Bible are symbolic and which we should understand in a more literal/historical way.

In another intriguing portion of the Barna survey, clergy were asked whether they would “have a lot to lose in your ministry” should you “admit doubts about human origins.” 58% of young earth clergy said they’d have a lot to lose should they admit doubts. But only 17% of theistic evolution clergy thought they had a lot to lose should they change their minds. For someone those who, like me, affirm theistic evolution, this statistic is a sobering reminder of the high stakes involved for some who may have a change of mind on human origin theories.

-- Pastors On Evolution and Creation · For The Love of Wisdom and The Wisdom of Love · Thomas Jay Oord


You also might be interested in this article (too lengthy to post here): http://biologos.org/blog/what-do-most-christians-really-believe-about-evolution
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
I have seen the surveys on Christian theologians but can't find this on a short search, but this you might find interesting:
This view is generally accepted by major Christian churches, including the Catholic Church, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Episcopal Church USA, and some other mainline Protestant denominations; virtually all Jewish denominations; and other religious groups that lack a literalist stance concerning some holy scriptures. Various biblical literalists have accepted or noted openness to this stance, including theologian B.B. Warfield and evangelist Billy Graham. A 2007 poll showed that acceptance among American Buddhists, Hindus and Jews was higher than among any Christian groups (graph below). One recent survey, conducted by physicist Max Tegmark, on “of how different US faith communities view origins science, particularly evolution and Big Bang cosmology.” Although “Gallup reports that 46% of Americans believe that God created humans in their present form less than 10,000 years ago", it found "only 11% belong to religions openly rejecting evolution." -- Acceptance of evolution by religious groups - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Interesting, but irrelevant :D

Some have noted that God made all in six days (yom), but sometimes "yom" can stand for a much longer period of time. Even if it were only six days, that would involve an evolution in and of itself. However, I don't favor this interpretation.

I don't know man, if God rested on the seventh day, then how long of a period is that? Genesis 2:3

"Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

So if he rested on the seventh day and made it holy...you (in general) are basically saying that he made a "period of time" holy. That doesn't seem to cut it for me. But that is just me.

So you don't think that all animals came from previous animals?

During the creation account, I think God made every "kind" of animal. The only question is; how many "original" kinds were there of every animal? No one knows.

This absolutely provides not one shred of evidence, especially since there are other possibilities.

Wait a minute, so you don't believe that the universe began to exist, despite the actual empirical evidence and observational evidence which supports it?

But you keep making one mistake after another, so the point is easy to establish. You keep on adding things to the ToE that simply either aren't there or are only hypotheses.

And as I said, the theory in a nut shell is the animals of today came from different animals of yesterday...and I just don't see any reasons to believe it. This hasn't been observed and there sure as heck isn't any evidence supporting it.

Oh, so they're "duped" but you aren't? And why would they be "screwed"? Where in your scriptures does it state or imply that salvation is based on a literal rendering of the creation accounts according to Genesis?

Oh trust me, I will be the first to admit that the rendering of the creation account has nothing to do with salvation. When I said "screwed", I didn't mean in terms of salvation, I meant in terms of the right theology. It is my personal opinion that the ToE is a flat out lie, and anyone who believes it is believing a lie, and therefore, screwed.

Hypotheses are not "guesses", so again your ignorance of even basic science is showing. Scientific hypotheses must have at least some supporting evidence.

Cmon now. Hypothesis' is traditonally AKA an "educated guess". Just google "Hypothesis educated guess" and you will see. But regardless of what you want to call it, the ToE has no supporting evidence for it.

"Faith" is not an element of science-- researching in order to try and find evidence one way or another is.

It is if you are a naturalist.

It is you whom has fallen victim to the "scam", as I did when I was much younger.

"No one will ever see it happen, but it happens". Yeah, I am the victim.

Thanks, and evolution produced all of the above, but God could well have had a hand in it.:yes:

Yeah, coulda, woulda, shoulda.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I don't know man, if God rested on the seventh day, then how long of a period is that? Genesis 2:3

"Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

So if he rested on the seventh day and made it holy...you (in general) are basically saying that he made a "period of time" holy. That doesn't seem to cut it for me. But that is just me.

When dealing with allegory, a literalistic approach is replaced by symbolism. If something is literal, then it's not an allegory.

And you're missing the point that, according to Genesis, God made all in six days if taken literally, so why did God take six days? Why not six hours? six seconds? Why not immediately? The point is that it shows sequential change, which could stand for the process of evolution.


Wait a minute, so you don't believe that the universe began to exist, despite the actual empirical evidence and observational evidence which supports it?

Oh, it began to exist, but exist from what is the next question? Our universe is roughly 13.8 billion years old, but who knows what may have come before that if anything? Most cosmologists think it's likely that something must have preceded the BB, but exactly what that may be is unknown. As for me, whatever caused our universe/multiverse I'll call "God", and pretty much leave it at that, because trying to go beyond that would simply be speculation.

And as I said, the theory in a nut shell is the animals of today came from different animals of yesterday...and I just don't see any reasons to believe it. This hasn't been observed and there sure as heck isn't any evidence supporting it.

Let me know when they find a rabbit fossil in the Cambrian layer, OK? My point is that under your scenario, the existence of the fossil record makes not one iota of sense. And if you believe that God put in the various layers of sentiment with different types of fossils found differing between them to try and trick us into believing that Earth is somehow older, then your rendition of God is that of being a liar or trickster. But, if you actually were to believe that God created all directly or indirectly over a much greater expanse of time, then your rendition of God makes much more sense.

For those who think God is a liar or trickster, I would suggest that believing God is Truth may be a far better approach, and Truth means an acceptance of what the scientific evidence is telling us.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
When dealing with allegory, a literalistic approach is replaced by symbolism. If something is literal, then it's not an allegory.

And you're missing the point that, according to Genesis, God made all in six days if taken literally, so why did God take six days? Why not six hours? six seconds? Why not immediately? The point is that it shows sequential change, which could stand for the process of evolution.

How long God took to create the universe was obviously a personal choice by God. An eternal being that has unlimited time to do anything is not under time restraints, so such a being can create anything in any amount of time he wants. He also obviously didn't care that thousands/millions of years later after the fact that someone would be questioning him about the duration it took him either.

Second, you are right...sequential change, and the only sequential change you've ever seen is animals producing what they are, not what they aren't.

Oh, it began to exist, but exist from what is the next question? Our universe is roughly 13.8 billion years old, but who knows what may have come before that if anything?

Then you have problems. If time is infinite, then there is no way to explain why an infinite chain reached a finite point on the chain only in only a finite time ago. So if time is infinite, why did our universe begin to exist only 13.8 billion years ago? Why not sooner? Why not later? Second, if our universe did come from a pre-big bang scenario, then it is unlikely to be a life permitting universe, because the entropy was just to low it to begin from a mindless and blind process.

Most cosmologists think it's likely that something must have preceded the BB, but exactly what that may be is unknown.

Right, and that is because the evidence for the finitude of our universe is so overwhelming, that it cries out for some kind of external explanation...so the questions is what evidence do we have that supports a external naturalistic source? We can't see beyond our own universe, so what evidence to we have to support anything beyond it? Nothing.

We know something caused it...

1. Naturalistic cause
2. Supernatural cause

I can give a long list of reasons why a supernatural cause is the best explanation. But there is no scientific evidence to support the existence of any universe out there besides our own, so there is no reason to believe that there is.

As for me, whatever caused our universe/multiverse I'll call "God", and pretty much leave it at that, because trying to go beyond that would simply be speculation.

Well, I call whatever caused our universe God, too.

Let me know when they find a rabbit fossil in the Cambrian layer, OK?

The Cambrian layers doesn't support evolution, because if it did you would expect to see countless transitional fossils throughout the layer...but you don't.

My point is that under your scenario, the existence of the fossil record makes not one iota of sense. And if you believe that God put in the various layers of sentiment with different types of fossils found differing between them to try and trick us into believing that Earth is somehow older, then your rendition of God is that of being a liar or trickster.

There is no "fossil record" in the first place. If by "fossil record" you mean "any various set of fossils belonging to animals that died a long time ago", then yeah, there is a fossil record. If by "fossil record" you mean "any various set of fossils belonging to animals that establishes macro-level changes from one species of animals to another", then there is no fossil record. When you find a fossil and determine anything other than "this once living creature has now died", then you've just left empirical science and dived right in to the religious realm.

But, if you actually were to believe that God created all directly or indirectly over a much greater expanse of time, then your rendition of God makes much more sense.

My belief is God doesn't need a trial and error process to create anything.

For those who think God is a liar or trickster, I would suggest that believing God is Truth may be a far better approach, and Truth means an acceptance of what the scientific evidence is telling us.

It is science, voodoo science.
 
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