Why would god require human sacrifice?

[Sees]

I view it as a practical joke Yahweh and Abraham were playing...on Isaac.

That is a good take on it

 

[Bunyip]

I think that ritual human sacrifice is one of many elements of Christian tradition that fit into the ancient world perfectly well - but that simply does not survive the passage of 2000 years.

If all memory of Christian theology were obliterated and modern people were presented with the same story today - they would simply reject it out of hand. It is only our long traditional relationship with these notions that prevents many from seeing them for what they are - reflections of a very different time.

 

[1137]

I don't think human sacrifice is done for the deity at the deepest level, but rather for the individual. It's that need to feel powerful, to have control over life and death. Your beliefs are so important that you have the right to end the life of another against their will? That's ego rubbing to the extreme.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I think that ritual human sacrifice is one of many elements of Christian tradition that fit into the ancient world perfectly well - but that simply does not survive the passage of 2000 years.

If all memory of Christian theology were obliterated and modern people were presented with the same story today - they would simply reject it out of hand. It is only our long traditional relationship with these notions that prevents many from seeing them for what they are - reflections of a very different time.

Most of us Christians do not believe that Jesus was some sort of human sacrifice made onto God. Many of us believe that Jesus was martyred.

 

[s2a]

In the bible god says not to in the OT but the founder is said to have been asked to sacrifice his first son Isaac. God said just kidding.

Then god finishes the task by sacrificing his own human son.

Why would such archaic barbaric means be necessary? Human sacrifice of a perfect innocent and blood is the real means. Is that some sort of satanic type worship or something with baby sacrifice, not to say satanists do that but sure makes sense to many christians.

Perhaps seeking rationale is pointless in this case.

Then again, I'm no apologist for the OT.

I still like broiled lamb tho.

Is that bad?

 

[Bunyip]

Most of us Christians do not believe that Jesus was some sort of human sacrifice made onto God. Many of us believe that Jesus was martyred.

Sure, there is a great deal of diversity in Christianity. It is however a common notion to many Christians that Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, and that his sacrifice was for the forgiveness of original sin.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Sure, there is a great deal of diversity in Christianity. It is however a common notion to many Christians that Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, and that his sacrifice was for the forgiveness of original sin.

I don't think you understand. Jesus was not a human sacrifice to God, God the Son sacrificed himself to us, in solidarity with us, taking on the fullness of humanity in order for us to accept his forgiveness, grace and love. He was the opposite of a human sacrifice. He was a divine sacrifice to humanity.

 

[Bunyip]

Even I know that this isn't correct, and that's saying a lot, trust me, as I've learned about Christianity mostly from RF and recent reading. You are really incorrect.

LOL Trust YOU? No mate, that Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, the sacrifice to end all sacrifices is a pretty common Christian apprehension.

 

[Bunyip]

I don't think you understand. Jesus was not a human sacrifice to God, God the Son sacrificed himself to us, in solidarity with us, taking on the fullness of humanity in order for us to accept his forgiveness, grace and love. He was the opposite of a human sacrifice. He was a divine sacrifice to humanity.

You are contradicting yourself - you say that he was not a sacrifice, and that he was a sacrifice in the same sentence.

Jesus (according to scripture) was a human, and divine. NOT divine INSTEAD of human.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't understand how people can believe that every single Christian believes and behaves as the Protties do. Millions of us don't.

I like this quote from the second article:

"the Father is "one in Being with the Son", and He did not demand the cruel torture and death of the Son. Rather, WE are the ones who demanded the cruel torture and death of Jesus. "

That is the truth, we are the ones who made Jesus a martyr. Wasn't the first time we killed a peacemaker and not the last time either but this peacemaker was the Son of God.

Yes, our view of the Atonement focuses on self-sacrificing love, which is the most pleasing sort of sacrifice to the Father. I'm pretty sure that God was not happy that we murdered His Son. In fact, it is seen as the greatest sin that humanity ever committed - murder of God Himself by those He created and loved.

Even the Angels lamented over the death of Christ:

The Passion of the Christ film hit it on the head when it had the teardrop of God falling from Heaven when Christ died. Good Friday is the saddest day on the Christian liturgical calendar and Catholicism has many depressing meditations on the sufferings of Christ which drive home the point that it was us and not God who are responsible for them.

The Orthodox have a very beautiful view of it, as well:

Eastern Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism have a substantively different soteriology; this is sometimes cited as the core difference between Eastern and Western Christianity. Salvation is not seen as legal release, but transformation of the human nature itself in the Son taking on human nature. In contrast to other forms of Christianity, the Orthodox tend to use the word "expiation" with regard to what is accomplished in the sacrificial act. In Orthodox theology, expiation is an act of offering that seeks to change the one making the offering. The Greek word that is translated both into propitiation and expiation is "hilasmos" which means "to make acceptable and enable one to draw close to God". Thus the Orthodox emphasis would be that Christ died, not to appease an angry and vindictive Father, or to avert the wrath of God, but to change people so that they may become divine, that is to say, become God in his energies or operations but not in his essence or identity as God (see theosis).[39]
Atonement in Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


So, no. Traditional Christianity doesn't have this image of God being a bloodthirsty brute Who punished His Son. That's a uniquely Protestant view.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

You are contradicting yourself - you say that he was not a sacrifice, and that he was a sacrifice in the same sentence.

Jesus (according to scripture) was a human, and divine. NOT divine INSTEAD of human.

I am not contradicting myself, I am telling you Jesus was not a sacrifice onto God to satisfy divine justice, he was God sacrificing himself to humanity so that we may come to knowledge of him and know his grace. There is a big difference here, it is God who is sacrificing himself to us. God despises all the blood-letting that people do, and wants nothing more than we stop doing it. He became incarnate to become the ultimate victim to our sinful nature.

 

[Bunyip]

I am not contradicting myself, I am telling you Jesus was not a sacrifice onto God to satisfy divine justice, he was God sacrificing himself to humanity so that we may come to knowledge of him and know his grace. There is a big difference here, it is God who is sacrificing himself to us. God despises all the blood-letting that people do, and wants nothing more than we stop doing it. He became incarnate to become the ultimate victim to our sinful nature.

Yes, but he was still a sacrifice - and a human, hence a human sacrifice.

Whether god sacrifices him, or he sacrifices himself - he was still a human sacrifice.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Yes, but he was still a sacrifice - and a human, hence a human sacrifice.

Whether god sacrifices him, or he sacrifices himself - he was still a human sacrifice.

A human and divine sacrifice but to whom? Surely not God. God sacrificed his divinity upon that cross, he sacrificed it to us, he gave it to us so we are enabled to become divine.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

So, no. Traditional Christianity doesn't have this image of God being a bloodthirsty brute Who punished His Son. That's a uniquely Protestant view.

It is a view I think of as obscene and thankfully reject.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think people need to learn the difference between self-sacrifice and the human sacrifices that were given by pagans. If I catch a bullet for someone and die out of my own free will and with full consent, am I a human sacrifice?

Also, the Christian concept of sacrifice is different from the pejorative idea of sacrifice that some like to use as a snarl term by conjuring images of a terrified person being slain and offered up to some bloodthirsty deity. The Christian concept of sacrifice is when you consensually give up something because you love someone. This can be a sacrifice of time to care for an ill loved one, sacrificing money that you need to help someone less fortunate than you, sacrificing your time to a charitable cause, dying because you refuse to forsake your Beloved (martyrdom) or the ultimate form of sacrifice - dying in place of someone else out of vast love for them, which is the sort of sacrifice Christ's was. No one forced Jesus to die and God is not bloodthirsty. He was on a mission and He died to reveal the infinite love that God has for humanity. It's completely different from the concept of sacrifice in any other religion that I know of.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I think people need to learn the difference between self-sacrifice and the human sacrifices that were given by pagans. If I catch a bullet for someone and die out of my own free will and with full consent, am I a human sacrifice?

And in this case it was God catching a bullet for us to make us see how stupid our actions can be.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

According to millions of Christians, a human sacrifice is the very key to their belief and to the salvation of the world. I agree that it is still an ancient primitive culture, but people in 2014 do actually believe that such an offering (Jesus) pleased God in some way that it was necessary for saving the world from God's wrath.

What lesson in morality would this be?

The part of Christ's sacrifice that pleased the Father is that it was done out of love for humanity. However, I'm quite sure the Father was angry that we killed His Son and that all the Angels in Heaven fled from the sight of His rage. Even the sky went black. Ever wonder why Jesus asked His Father to forgive us for we know not what we do? If the Father was so happy about His Son being brutalized to death by depraved sinners, why would Jesus ask His Father to forgive us for it?

 

[ruffen]

Not all Christian accept the Penal Substitution Atonement Theory. I know I don't and neither did the Early Christians and it wasn't widely accepted even after the Reformation. It is something that came popular during the "Great Awakening" and I am not buying it. I am sticking with the Moral Influence Atonement Theory were Christ's death was a martyrdom and his life, teachings and death empowers and influences us.

But, a martyrdom, a death to empower and influence us, that is exactly what a human sacrifice is! That a death was required to achieve some greater goal.

 

[ruffen]

The part of Christ's sacrifice that pleased the Father is that it was done out of love for humanity. However, I'm quite sure the Father was angry that we killed His Son and that all the Angels in Heaven fled from the sight of His rage. Even the sky went black. Ever wonder why Jesus asked His Father to forgive us for we know not what we do? If the Father was so happy about His Son being brutalized to death by depraved sinners, why would Jesus ask His Father to forgive us for it?

I thought the Father and the Son were two aspects of the same deity? Don't they speak to each other?

How can one aspect of God get sacrificed out of love for humanity, yet another aspect gets furious about it? And what was God the Father's plan with Jesus then?

Besides the whole idea that the entire humanity is responsible for what Adam and Eve did, and the entire humanity is responsible for the Romans killing Jesus, and the entire humanity should be thankful for the forgivness of Jesus, is an immoral and silly one. I didn't put Jesus up on that cross. Why would Jesus ask his Father to forgive us for something somebody else did? Because God the Father is a hateful monster deity who condemns the entire human kind based on what some individuals did?

 

[ruffen]

And didn't God the Father see this coming? Really? Couldn't he foresee that a religious rebel who questioned Rome's authority and their gods could be executed? Hasn't he been paying attention to human affairs over the millennia?

And couldn't he have prevented it if he wanted? Make Jesus immortal or give him the ability to become invisible to escape such situations? Sure the omnipotent Father could do that if he could give Jesus powers to walk on water and feed thousands with a couple of fish?

But no, God must have foreseen that Jesus would be killed, and he took no action to prevent it. He saw it coming, and Jesus saw it coming. Then Jesus asks for forgiveness, while God the Father acts all surprised and gets furious?