Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?

[waitasec]

we didn't make the laws or the rules.

we certainly didn't. we are subjected to the indifference of life while we struggle to survive.
the rules are, there are no rules...but we make them in order to survive as a species. we're funny that way.

 

[DandyAndy]

we certainly didn't. we are subjected to the indifference of life while we struggle to survive.
the rules are, there are no rules...but we make them in order to survive as a species. we're funny that way.

I hear that or a variation of that quite a bit but I don't think I fully understand it. What exactly does that mean?

I giggle every time I hear that saying 'the only rule is there are no rules.'

 

[waitasec]

I hear that or a variation of that quite a bit but I don't think I fully understand it. What exactly does that mean?

well do you think that the death of a 3 yr old child because of a brain tumor is a part of the rules god set up, or just a random event?
do you think me escaping death only because of split second timing is part of the rules god set or is it a random event?

I giggle every time I hear that saying 'the only rule is there are no rules.'

yeah, i'm a huge grease fan

 

[DandyAndy]

well do you think that the death of a 3 yr old child because of a brain tumor is a part of the rules god set up, or just a random event?
do you think me escaping death only because of split second timing is part of the rules god set or is it a random event?



yeah, i'm a huge grease fan

The brain tumor question I would answer by saying that it is a result of the perversion of God's rules caused by sin and evil entering into the Creation.

I don't really know how to answer the escaping death question - answering it the way you put it, I would say neither.

 

[waitasec]

The brain tumor question I would answer by saying that it is a result of the perversion of God's rules caused by sin and evil entering into the Creation.

those are the rules man made up in orer to make sense of the indifference we are faced with...
explain why animals face suffering... tooth decay and diseases, do they sin?
we can go to another thread and discuss original sin if you want...
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...19175-miscarriages-abortion-original-sin.html

I don't really know how to answer the escaping death question - answering it the way you put it, I would say neither.

it is what it is, it's random events. it's indifference all while we struggle to survive...survival of the fittest. it's a cold hard truth and truth is often not accommodating.

 

[waitasec]

i just want to add that the random timing of things is a fact that we deal with constantly...
which are random indifferent events happening all throughout the day all throughout our lives. are these random events a part of gods rules or is it the way it is?
i think we thrive on the ability to improvise with randomness, without randomness we would be unchallenged and life less.

i can pin point a random event that changed the course of my life, as i'm sure anyone can. life is random, however along with our ability to improvise, we also have the ability to rationalize to make sense of it all...by making our own rules.

 

[9Westy9]

There is the 10 Commandments, Jesus and the writings of people like Paul. I also count the moral sense that all humans have as the law from God that governs all people - you know, what people always talk about in the moral argument - I believe this is from God. And this law is very clear to all humans with the capacity to understand it (which is 99% of humanity).

I'm not so good at explaining it - search for William Lane Craig's explanation - he covers it in the debate with Christopher Hitchens and I'm sure other places as well. Basically he talks about the historical evidence of Jesus life, of the empty tomb and of the apostles being so adamant as to go against their former Jewish beliefs and spread a new message that is so radical that the only explanation for them doing so is that Jesus did in fact rise from the dead. **please listen for yourself or read about it somewhere else for a good overview - I'm no scholar or theologian.

If morality is objective i.e. given by God there are a few problems. 1) Anything done by God is immediately morally right no matter what he does/ commands 2) God says nothing on bigger moral decisions i.e. [youtube]jnXmDaI8IEo[/youtube]
'Morality: From the Heavens or From Nature?' by Dr. Andy Thomson, AAI 2009 - YouTube. Starts at 2:35
3) God doesn't even live up to his own moral standards let alone modern moral standards

I haven't seen any real evidence not from the bible and the amount of evidence for the gospel accounts is very limited.

 

[9Westy9]

Btw I'm referring to the first problem in the video.

 

[PolyHedral]

A penalty inflicted for a punishment, retribution.

That is what it is. Why is it used? More specifically, why does God use it? What purpose does it serve Him?

 

[crocusj]

You are free to believe that but I don't buy it and I don't think it works - at best that would lead to a majority rules and the others that don't agree with it are either excluded or exterminated, at best leading to war and terror and death - which is what we have right now. And that's the BEST case scenario the way I see it - we need some kind of outside morality given us by an outside force to keep us in line and on the same 'level' so to speak. When you put people on different levels, when they determine their own worth and their own right and wrong, you get genocide and the holocaust - but if we make up the rules, I guess that would be ok, so long as the majority go along with it.

That's not for me.

Well, I have had penalty points on my licence and nobody has threatened to exterminate me, 120mph is dangerous and therefore anti social. How hard is that?What outside morality is this of which you speak?

 

[idea]

...the rules are, there are no rules....

rules exist... laws exist - the law of gravity, the laws of thermodynamics, laws of motion, laws of chemistry...

the laws of morality exist as the laws for all science exists - don't murder, be honest, be polite / civil / respectful, teachable...

you can pretend that gravity does not exist, or that it does not apply to you - jump off buildings etc. etc. to prove yourself right - but you are fighting the current, an will never erase the law of gravity through your struggles... best to accept the laws, and learn how to use them to your advantage than to fight against them.... same with the laws of morality - you can fight against it, murder people - lie - disrespect - immodest etc. etc. but it is like fighting against gravity, you will not change the laws through your actions... a peaceful society will always be one without murder, with honesty, where people respect one another, are civil, polite etc. etc.

 

[PolyHedral]

you can fight against it, murder people - lie - disrespect - immodest etc. etc. but it is like fighting against gravity, you will not change the laws through your actions...

"Remove the laws against murder or I will nuke New York City."

Would that not be effective?

 

[waitasec]

rules exist... laws exist - the law of gravity, the laws of thermodynamics, laws of motion, laws of chemistry...

the laws of morality exist as the laws for all science exists - don't murder, be honest, be polite / civil / respectful, teachable...

you can pretend that gravity does not exist, or that it does not apply to you - jump off buildings etc. etc. to prove yourself right - but you are fighting the current, an will never erase the law of gravity through your struggles... best to accept the laws, and learn how to use them to your advantage than to fight against them.... same with the laws of morality - you can fight against it, murder people - lie - disrespect - immodest etc. etc. but it is like fighting against gravity, you will not change the laws through your actions... a peaceful society will always be one without murder, with honesty, where people respect one another, are civil, polite etc. etc.

that isn't the point of the post....in the scheme of things we do not make the rules of indifference and random events. we make our own rules to make sense of them.

when i say there are no rules, i mean to say we didn't create the circumstances of the laws of physics or gravity. are we to blame the laws of physics when a child gets hit by a car, or gravity if she falls from a building?
or do we understand that it was a circumstance of looking the other way at the most inopportune moment due to some random event?

 

[DandyAndy]

Well, I have had penalty points on my licence and nobody has threatened to exterminate me, 120mph is dangerous and therefore anti social. How hard is that?What outside morality is this of which you speak?

 

[DandyAndy]

those are the rules man made up in orer to make sense of the indifference we are faced with...
explain why animals face suffering... tooth decay and diseases, do they sin?
we can go to another thread and discuss original sin if you want...
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...19175-miscarriages-abortion-original-sin.html



it is what it is, it's random events. it's indifference all while we struggle to survive...survival of the fittest. it's a cold hard truth and truth is often not accommodating.

What do you mean when you say 'those are the rules man made up?' Are you talking about the brain tumor? I assume you are talking about my explanation of why it happened, which would be the affects of sin on the Creation - but I hate to assume because we all know what assuming can do.

I never said that those things are the result of sinning, they are the result of sin. Cancer can be the affect of being exposed to too much radiation or drinking too many diet cokes, or it can just happen as a result of the imperfection of the Creation (an imperfection caused by an 'infection' of a 'disease' which is sin).

Toothaches and the like don't happen because you looked at too much porn online or you cussed too many times last week - toothaches and the like happen because the Creation has been infected with the disease of sin. This sin doesn't affect just humanity, it affects all of the Creation (plants, dirt, nature - all that stuff).

**And just to be clear - I do not believe that you or me or anyone else is guilty of 'original sin' the moment they are born. I don't see that in the Bible. Adam and Eve sinned and the result of that sin (just like drinking too many diet cokes) was a corrupted Creation (cancer), which is our sinful nature, which I do see in the Bible.

Did we eat that fruit? Nope. Do we suffer the consequences of it, which means we have a natural tendency to want to sin (sinful nature)? Yep. That's just the way it is - kind of like if a woman does drugs while she's pregnant, the baby is going to be messed up - the baby didn't do anything, that's just the way it works. Is it unfair? I would say yes IF God expected us to be perfect (we can't be) and didn't offer a way to fix our problem. But He did offer a solution - Jesus - so it seems fair to me, especially since God didn't make the choice to eat the fruit, Adam and Eve did - but that's another issue that I think we may have talked about before? Maybe it was someone else...

 

[DandyAndy]

If morality is objective i.e. given by God there are a few problems. 1) Anything done by God is immediately morally right no matter what he does/ commands 2) God says nothing on bigger moral decisions i.e. [youtube]jnXmDaI8IEo[/youtube]
'Morality: From the Heavens or From Nature?' by Dr. Andy Thomson, AAI 2009 - YouTube. Starts at 2:35
3) God doesn't even live up to his own moral standards let alone modern moral standards

I haven't seen any real evidence not from the bible and the amount of evidence for the gospel accounts is very limited.

#1) I don't understand that - we have the moral sense because it is part of our character, just as it is a part of God's character. God is perfect so He would never break it - we are imperfect so we break it. Are you saying that He can just wing it as He goes along and change things around? What would make you think that is the case?

#2) Justice, murder, rape, bestiality, greed, selfishness, hatred, lying, stealing, idolatry - how bigger can the moral decisions be?

#3) I don't agree with that whatsoever. Modern day moral standards that we made up mean nothing and neither does any other human made laws - what the laws we make up are based upon is what matters.

#4) Concerning the evidence, that's cool, you are welcome to take it or leave it - I just wanted to point out that it is at least there.

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

Thus far I have avoided this thread like the plague, but I just wanted to put this statement out there, as a liberal Christian.

I do not think anyone is going to hell (if there even is such a place) for disbelief alone. Actions speak a lot louder then professing a belief in word. I believe one way of serving god is to serve others, and if an Atheist does that, they are serving god, even if they don't believe it.

 

[DandyAndy]

That is what it is. Why is it used? More specifically, why does God use it? What purpose does it serve Him?

It is used to punish - I can't define it without using the word - you do something bad, you face the consequences - that's justice. God uses it because He is a just God. I don't know what purpose it serves Him, that seems like a strange question to me. I don't really know how to answer - I guess I would say that because He is just, punishment is required if justice is to be served - that's just the way it works.

That's a strange question akin to what purpose does love serve Him? What purpose does righteousness serve Him? I don't know how to answer those - I don't even know if they are proper questions. Maybe I just don't understand it. Sorry.

 

[waitasec]

I assume you are talking about my explanation of why it happened, which would be the affects of sin on the Creation - but I hate to assume because we all know what assuming can do.

rightly so. yes this is what i'm talking about. these rules were made up to explain the unexplainable...
today we know what causes diseases, and we have been able to find cures for some..
so if in fact disease is a consequence of sin why are we able to cure them?certainly not with gods blessing since he created the circumstance of disease because of the original sin...therefore going to the doctor and taking meds would be going against gods will...right?

I never said that those things are the result of sinning, they are the result of sin. Cancer can be the affect of being exposed to too much radiation or drinking too many diet cokes, or it can just happen as a result of the imperfection of the Creation (an imperfection caused by an 'infection' of a 'disease' which is sin).

that is a rule man made up...
we are more aware of what causes certain diseases and we have learned how to prevent them, yet still be sinful...

Toothaches and the like don't happen because you looked at too much porn online or you cussed too many times last week - toothaches and the like happen because the Creation has been infected with the disease of sin. This sin doesn't affect just humanity, it affects all of the Creation (plants, dirt, nature - all that stuff).

another rule man made up

**And just to be clear - I do not believe that you or me or anyone else is guilty of 'original sin' the moment they are born. I don't see that in the Bible. Adam and Eve sinned and the result of that sin (just like drinking too many diet cokes) was a corrupted Creation (cancer), which is our sinful nature, which I do see in the Bible.

oh i see what you mean but since we are not guilty of it we are subjected to it, so what is the difference?

Did we eat that fruit? Nope. Do we suffer the consequences of it, which means we have a natural tendency to want to sin (sinful nature)? Yep.

are we then created sick and then demanded to be healed?

That's just the way it is - kind of like if a woman does drugs while she's pregnant, the baby is going to be messed up - the baby didn't do anything, that's just the way it works. Is it unfair? I would say yes IF God expected us to be perfect (we can't be) and didn't offer a way to fix our problem. But He did offer a solution - Jesus - so it seems fair to me, especially since God didn't make the choice to eat the fruit, Adam and Eve did - but that's another issue that I think we may have talked about before? Maybe it was someone else...

if you take the original sin story literally, you would have to concede that god in his omniscience knew a & e were going to fail...
which puts god in a position of intent. meaning he intended for us to suffer

 

[DandyAndy]

Thus far I have avoided this thread like the plague, but I just wanted to put this statement out there, as a liberal Christian.

I do not think anyone is going to hell (if there even is such a place) for disbelief alone. Actions speak a lot louder then professing a belief in word. I believe one way of serving god is to serve others, and if an Atheist does that, they are serving god, even if they don't believe it.

Your first statement is correct - they are going to Hell because they are guilty of innumerable sins AND they don't believe and trust in the one thing that could save them. As a Christian I should be going to Hell with them because I am guilty of just as many if not more innumerable sins EXCEPT I have a pardon given to me by Christ and I accepted it and trust in it and it is my hope and strength and purpose.