Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?

[9Westy9]

Are you referring to the 'biblical hell' [sheol] , or the pagan-myth hell ?

There is a difference in the non-biblical hell myth, and the Bible's hell [sheol].

Jesus was in the Bible's hell according to Acts [2vs27,31]
The biblical hell [sheol] exists because death exists. [Romans 6v23]
Jesus death sent Jesus to the Bible's hell [sheol].

Jesus taught the dead sleep the deep sleep of death. John 11vs11-14.

Jesus was educated in the Hebrew OT Scriptures that also teach the dead sleep in death at Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Daniel 12vs2,13; Ecc9v5.

So, the Bible hell [sheol] is just the common grave of mankind.
The common grave that comes to an end during Jesus messianic [1000-year] reign over earth according to Revelation [20 vs13,14]

After everybody in the Bible's hell are 'delivered up' [resurrected] out of the Bible's hell, then, and only then, is emptied-out hell [gravedom] cast into a symbolic second death of no further existence anywhere.

So everyone goes to the biblical hell temporarily? Intriguing.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

The king of Tyre was never in the Garden of Eden

The verses say:

"The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man (Ezekial), take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
[FONT=&quot] You were in Eden,
the garden of God..."

If God was talking about Satan then what did it have to do with the king of Tyre and why was he brought up? Also, the prophecy mentions trade and the word "trade" is mentioned twice. As in:

"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence"

and

"[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries."

So given this and the fact that the king of Tyre is specifically mentioned and unless you're telling me that Satan engages in commerce, this prophecy has to be about the king of Tyre.

[/FONT]

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The verses say:
"The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man (Ezekial), take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
[FONT=&quot] You were in Eden,
the garden of God..."
If God was talking about Satan then what did it have to do with the king of Tyre and why was he brought up? Also, the prophecy mentions trade and the word "trade" is mentioned twice. As in:
"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence"
and
"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries."
So given this and the fact that the king of Tyre is specifically mentioned and unless you're telling me that Satan engages in commerce, this prophecy has to be about the king of Tyre.
[/FONT]

Interesting that you would mention 'Satan engages in commerce' because of the three BIG sectors of the world, at Revelation chapter 18, one of the BIG three is business or commerce that is in mourning or sorrow because of the loss of big revenue once made off of the world's big religious sector.
That profit loss makes me think of 'holiday' profits or simony.

John [8v44] calls Satan as the father of the lie.
That would make Satan the first sinner [fathering or giving birth to the lie].
Although the dirge at Ezekiel 28 is directed to the human king,
it parallels or corresponds to the course taken by sinner Satan.[verses 12-19]

Satan was a prideful megalomaniac like the king of Tyre making himself as a god sitting in the seat [throne] of God.
Like Satan that haughty king boasts [Ez 28v2]
The literal king of Tyre could Not have been perfect in beauty and ways.
[Ez 27v3; 28 vs12,15] Whereas before sinning Satan was perfect in beauty.

As a ship caught in a tempest storm its sinking would mean a total loss not only of its cargo but loss of life. [Ez 27v36; 26v17;28v19]
According to Hebrews [2v14 B] Satan will lose his life in destruction by Jesus.
-Ez 28v16 B.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Interesting that you would mention 'Satan engages in commerce' because of the three BIG sectors of the world, at Revelation chapter 18, one of the BIG three is business or commerce that is in mourning or sorrow because of the loss of big revenue once made off of the world's big religious sector.
That profit loss makes me think of 'holiday' profits or simony.

Revelations 18 is a prophecy against Babylon, not commerce. Babylon was an empire that was an enemy of Israel and just happened to have gotten rich and powerful from commerce. It foretells that Babylon's commerce and indeed, the entire empire, will collapse in the last days, not the world's. The Bible may or may not say somewhere that the world's economic systems will collapse in the last days but it's not what Revelations 18 says.

In any case, as I said, unless you're saying that Satan himself engages in commerce, the prophecy in Ezekial is about the king of Tyre.

John [8v44] calls Satan as the father of the lie.
That would make Satan the first sinner [fathering or giving birth to the lie].
Although the dirge at Ezekiel 28 is directed to the human king,
it parallels or corresponds to the course taken by sinner Satan.[verses 12-19]

Maybe, maybe not. But there's still no indication in Genesis that the serpent was anything more than a cunning, talking snake. The text makes it difficult to interpret it as anything else since it specifically describes the serpent as the most cunning of the wild creatures that the Lord God had made. No matter what verses you throw at me, we keep coming back to that one unavoidable fact.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Revelations 18 is a prophecy against Babylon, not commerce. Babylon was an empire that was an enemy of Israel and just happened to have gotten rich and powerful from commerce. It foretells that Babylon's commerce and indeed, the entire empire, will collapse in the last days, not the world's. The Bible may or may not say somewhere that the world's economic systems will collapse in the last days but it's not what Revelations 18 says.
In any case, as I said, unless you're saying that Satan himself engages in commerce, the prophecy in Ezekial is about the king of Tyre.
Maybe, maybe not. But there's still no indication in Genesis that the serpent was anything more than a cunning, talking snake. The text makes it difficult to interpret it as anything else since it specifically describes the serpent as the most cunning of the wild creatures that the Lord God had made. No matter what verses you throw at me, we keep coming back to that one unavoidable fact.

The Bible taken as a whole connects Eden's snake to Rev. 12 vs9,12.

There is Babylon, and there is 'Babylon the Great'. -Rev 17v5
Perhaps one might say, in a biblical way of speaking, for a city,
a Babylonish-like city, as being a temptress to draw away the ancient Israelites away from their Scriptural religious traditions of their ancestors.

Revelation is talking about something modern international in scope.
[BIG religion, BIG business; BIG political]
The world's political sector [kings] of Rev 17vs1,2 sit on many 'waters'
Those symbolic 'waters', according to verse 15, means peoples and nations.
The 7 kings of verse 10 are in reference to the huge political image of Daniel chapter 2 leading up to our day, or the weak feet of the image.
The 8th king [political] of verse 11 will prove to be the United Nations.
[Like when a storm comes they can be united in action]

Ancient Babylon was ruled by Nimrod and was the birth place of false or religious myths. If we trace mankind's religious family tree back to its roots in ancient Babylon, when those pagan peoples migrated from Babylon they took with them their pagan religious concepts or ideas and spread them out world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
So, 'Babylon the Great' is a fitting description of the whole world empire of Babylonish religious practices and traditions.

Although political empires or political groups of nations have come and gone, Babylonish religious history has endured since Nimrod although taking many different-looking shapes or forms. Christendom today is more connected to overlapping pagan practices or traditions than it is connected to the practices of 1st-century Christianity.

Today we have a religious syncretism. A reconciliation or fusion of differing systems of belief that have been paganized from or since ancient Babylon.
This has resulted in new teachings, or belief systems, that can Not be reconciled or compatible to the biblical Christianity of the 1st century.

Ancient Babylon's dominate feature was its false religious practices.
The modern monstrosity 'Babylon the Great' is like her ancient counterpart in playing the harlot by her compromising with the world's political elements. Such as in supporting their wars on different sides. Such as when people of the same religion, but of another country, with clergy blessing went to war killing each other such as during the world wars.

Revelation chapters 17 and 18 is in connection to 3 international groups:
The political 'kings'
The religious 'queen' [Babylonish]
The commercial or business world.

Please notice the international scope of the world's economic systems connected to commerce at Rev. [18v11] because it includes the 'merchants of the earth'. Babylon the Great, or the false religious 'queen' of verse7 sees her collapse in verse 8. Collapse by the 'kings' of Rev. 17vs2,17.
This results in, as Rev [18v15] says, the merchants stand far off [do not come to her aid] for the fear of her torment by the political.

 

[Muffled]

Then why does the Bible say it was a beast of the field?

It didn't. It compared him to the beasts of the field.

 

[Muffled]

The Hebrew word behemah' refers to usually domestic or tame animals.
But also on occasion to beast or wild beast.
In other words behemah' can be rendered as referring to:
domestic or tame animals, beasts, or live stock and cattle.
[Gen 1v26; 9v10; 34v23; Psalm 107v38].

The Hebrew term *chaiyah' [living creature] is used to refer to wild beasts
or wild animals such as at Gen. 1v28; 3v14; Isaiah 56v9.

[Greek term zo'on [living creature] is also rendered as animal.]
- Rev 4v7; 2 Peter 2v12.

The Hebrew word re'mes denotes moving animals including creeping ones
which comes from the root ramas' meaning to move; to creep.
Gen. 6v20; Eze 8v10; Gen. 1v28.

So, the serpent of Gen. [3v1] was a living creature [*chaiyah'] meaning:
a living soul that was not a human- Numbers 31v28.

Again the text does not say that the serpent was a living creature. It simply says "The Serpent."

 

[Muffled]

So, you say each ship has it's own captain?
Who is the Captain of God's ship of state?
That would mean one and only one singular ship of state that God is using.
Jesus would be Captain. "Hail to the Chief!" [singular]

Always in Scripture archangel is singular. One of a kind or unique.
There is only one singular archangel in Scripture.
That is the archangel of 1st Thess [4v16] who is the Lord, not Satan.

Satan is a 'counterfeit archangel' and does Not have the ultimate authority over 'all' angels. The 'fallen away' angels [demons] are not all of the angels.
According to Rev. 12 the 'fallen angels' are cast down to earth.
Please notice two sets of angels at Rev 12v7.
First, the 'fallen angels' are evicted out of heaven.
Then, at Rev. [19v14] the armies of heaven [unfallen angels] follow Jesus.
Compare Matthew [25v31] as to which angels are with Jesus.

The symbolic fire of Matt [25v41] is only for Satan and his angels.
No humans are in that 'fire'. That symbolic 'fire and sulphur' is the 'second death' of Rev. [21v8] when Jesus has Satan destroyed. -Hebrews 2v14 B.

God's state has many cities and each city has a chief of the city. So even though there is only one chief of state (God) there are many chiefs of cities.

Just as you would refer to only one chief of a city at a time (Mayor of New York) you would only speak of one archangel at a time.

The text does not say that the archangel is Lord or Satan. You are adding your own thoughts to scripture.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

The Bible taken as a whole connects Eden's snake to Rev. 12 vs9,12.

To begin with, that’s debatable. Secondly, like I said before, you can continue to throw verses around but we’re still left with the fact that the serpent in Genesis was one of the wild creatures “that God had made”. How do you reconcile this with what you’re telling me? Where’s the connection between Satan being metaphorically referred to as a serpent in Revelations and the actual wild snake in Genesis? I mean, other than that the word “serpent” was used in both cases?

And here’s something else to consider: If the serpent in the garden was actually possessed or being controlled by Satan then God would have known this, correct? That being the case, why did God choose to curse the snake – the wild creature - to crawl on its belly and eat dust “all the days of your life” if the snake itself had nothing to do with their temptation?

There is Babylon, and there is 'Babylon the Great'. -Rev 17v5
Perhaps one might say, in a biblical way of speaking, for a city,
a Babylonish-like city, as being a temptress to draw away the ancient Israelites away from their Scriptural religious traditions of their ancestors.

Revelation is talking about something modern international in scope.
[BIG religion, BIG business; BIG political]
The world's political sector [kings] of Rev 17vs1,2 sit on many 'waters'
Those symbolic 'waters', according to verse 15, means peoples and nations.
The 7 kings of verse 10 are in reference to the huge political image of Daniel chapter 2 leading up to our day, or the weak feet of the image.
The 8th king [political] of verse 11 will prove to be the United Nations.
[Like when a storm comes they can be united in action]

Ancient Babylon was ruled by Nimrod and was the birth place of false or religious myths. If we trace mankind's religious family tree back to its roots in ancient Babylon, when those pagan peoples migrated from Babylon they took with them their pagan religious concepts or ideas and spread them out world wide into a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
So, 'Babylon the Great' is a fitting description of the whole world empire of Babylonish religious practices and traditions.

Um, no. There have been pagan religions all over the world since before civilizations sprang up and maybe even before man developed language. There’s no way to back up the claim that paganism or “false” religions have their roots in Babylon.

Although political empires or political groups of nations have come and gone, Babylonish religious history has endured since Nimrod although taking many different-looking shapes or forms. Christendom today is more connected to overlapping pagan practices or traditions than it is connected to the practices of 1st-century Christianity.

Today we have a religious syncretism. A reconciliation or fusion of differing systems of belief that have been paganized from or since ancient Babylon.
This has resulted in new teachings, or belief systems, that can Not be reconciled or compatible to the biblical Christianity of the 1st century.

Ancient Babylon's dominate feature was its false religious practices.
The modern monstrosity 'Babylon the Great' is like her ancient counterpart in playing the harlot by her compromising with the world's political elements. Such as in supporting their wars on different sides. Such as when people of the same religion, but of another country, with clergy blessing went to war killing each other such as during the world wars.

Revelation chapters 17 and 18 is in connection to 3 international groups:
The political 'kings'
The religious 'queen' [Babylonish]
The commercial or business world.

Please notice the international scope of the world's economic systems connected to commerce at Rev. [18v11] because it includes the 'merchants of the earth'. Babylon the Great, or the false religious 'queen' of verse7 sees her collapse in verse 8. Collapse by the 'kings' of Rev. 17vs2,17.
This results in, as Rev [18v15] says, the merchants stand far off [do not come to her aid] for the fear of her torment by the political.

That’s one interpretation I suppose but there’s no reason for one not to interpret it to mean Babylon specifically.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

It didn't. It compared him to the beasts of the field.

First we have to ask why he would be compared to the wild creatures that God made since animals in general are not perceived as crafty. If they were then I would understand the comparison. Secondly, I would have to say that since the serpent in the garden was an animal, the comparison was of one animal to the others. And as I pointed out to URAVIP2ME, if the serpent in the garden was in fact not one of the wild creatures, why did God choose to curse the wild creature?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

First we have to ask why he would be compared to the wild creatures that God made since animals in general are not perceived as crafty. If they were then I would understand the comparison. Secondly, I would have to say that since the serpent in the garden was an animal, the comparison was of one animal to the others. And as I pointed out to URAVIP2ME, if the serpent in the garden was in fact not one of the wild creatures, why did God choose to curse the wild creature?

That 'curse' in Eden was not God directed against the literal animal,
but please notice against the instigator behind the serpent.
Instigator Satan used or employed the serpent as 'his' agent.
...and 'dust you will eat' or that Satan would 'bite the dust' [cease to exist]
- see Gen 3 vs14,15

That 'curse' was not meant for the serpent but meant Satan's destruction.
-Gen 3v15;Romans 16v20; Heb 2v14 B

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That’s one interpretation I suppose but there’s no reason for one not to interpret it to mean Babylon specifically.

How could literal Babylon be drunk with the blood of all the holy ones or saints?
And be drunk with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus ? Rev 17 vs5,6

How could literal Babylon be the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth?

How could all the kings [rulers] of earth commit fornication with literal Babylon?
-Rev 18vs2,3

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

That 'curse' in Eden was not God directed against the literal animal,
but please notice against the instigator behind the serpent.
Instigator Satan used or employed the serpent as 'his' agent.
...and 'dust you will eat' or that Satan would 'bite the dust' [cease to exist]
- see Gen 3 vs14,15

Then why does it say:

"Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!

First he was described as the most cunning of all the wild creatures God had made then later he is cursed above all the livestock. If the serpent in the garden was not actually an animal then why does the text keep mentioning animals? Also, if he was not an animal, why curse him above all the animals? What did the animals have to do with any of this and does this mean the animals were cursed?

That 'curse' was not meant for the serpent but meant Satan's destruction.
-Gen 3v15;Romans 16v20; Heb 2v14 B

Then why does it say:

[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life"?

How can Satan die all the days of his life?

Another thing, the text says:

[FONT=&quot]"And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;"

Why just the woman? And does Satan have offspring? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

How could literal Babylon be drunk with the blood of all the holy ones or saints?

And be drunk with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus ? Rev 17 vs5,6

How could literal Babylon be the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth?

Good questions. But remember that it is referred to specifically as the city of Babylon three or four times in those passages.

How could all the kings [rulers] of earth commit fornication with literal Babylon?
-Rev 18vs2,3

How could all the kings commit fornication with a metaphorical Babylon?

 

[waitasec]

seems to me that there are so many hurdles one has to jump when taking the bible literally...
what's the point?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

seems to me that there are so many hurdles one has to jump when taking the bible literally...
what's the point?

The only thing I can figure is that they don't even see the hurdles.

BTW, I don't check my User CP very often so I didn't notice until yesterday that I had gotten a couple frubals from you over the last month or so and I just wanted to say thanks.

 

[Antiochian]

Meh, I take the Bible with a grain of salt these days. Has some good advice/insights, but so does Time magazine.

Glad my religion doesn't have a bible.

 

[Antiochian]

King Solomon, known for his God-given wisdom, wrote us at Ecclesiastes 9v5 that the dead know nothing. The dead are not conscious.

So, while Jesus was in the Bible's hell [sheol] Jesus was in a deep sleep like unconscious state until God resurrected Jesus out of the Bible's hell or gravedom back to the spirit realm.

Jesus knew he would be in a deep sleep like state at death because that is what Jesus taught in John chapter 11.

I'm guessing you're either member of the watchtower bts or a seventh day adventist.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Then why does it say:
"Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
First he was described as the most cunning of all the wild creatures God had made then later he is cursed above all the livestock. If the serpent in the garden was not actually an animal then why does the text keep mentioning animals? Also, if he was not an animal, why curse him above all the animals? What did the animals have to do with any of this and does this mean the animals were cursed?
Then why does it say:
[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life"?
How can Satan die all the days of his life?
Another thing, the text says:
[FONT=&quot]"And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;"
Why just the woman? And does Satan have offspring? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

The serpent itself was actually an animal.
Satan used the actual serpent as a ventriloquist uses his dummy.

Eat dust as in we might say 'bite the dust' meaning he will die.
'Death is the price sin pays' [Rom 6v23]
Satan is a sinner and must pay the price or wage of sin which is: death.
-Revelation 21v8 meaning 'second death' for Satan. No resurrection ever.
Satan nor his demons die a so-called natural death, but are destined for destruction or annihilation by Jesus. -Hebrews 2v14 B.

Satan's so-called offspring or 'seed' of Genesis [3v15] are his demonic angels and his earthly 'seed' of human followers.

The 'seed' of the 'woman' is Christ Jesus according to Gal. 3v16.
That symbolic 'woman' of Genesis [3v15] is Not a literal woman [Just like Satan is not a literal serpent], but is the symbolic woman of Revelation [12v1; Gal. 4v26; Isaiah 54v5,6]

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Good questions. But remember that it is referred to specifically as the city of Babylon three or four times in those passages.
How could all the kings commit fornication with a metaphorical Babylon?

Babylon the Great is both described as a loose woman and a city.

She commits a religious fornication [porneia] with the political [kings].
-James 4v4

She is a Babylon-like city in false religious practices.
She has a counterfeit religious kingdom over earth's kings [rulers]
She would like herself wed to political and public policy.
She would like to have the major role in union of church and state in order to have the power to crown and dethrone kings [rulers] -Rev 17v18
But, meddling in the world's affairs has caused attention,
and has caused her to be in the 'radar' of the United Nations [who in the times of religious storms] can come together to take drastic action when necessary.

Babylon the Great also corresponds to unfaithful Jerusalem that was destroyed in the year 70. The Roman armies at that time proved to be God's long arm of the law to ax her down. As in the past then, God can put it into the hearts of the present political world to be his arm of the law against false religion or Babylon the Great because she has run afoul religiously playing false to God and his Word.