Why would God send good people to Hell just because they dont believe he exists?

[krsnaraja]

That 'curse' in Eden was not God directed against the literal animal,
but please notice against the instigator behind the serpent.
Instigator Satan used or employed the serpent as 'his' agent.
...and 'dust you will eat' or that Satan would 'bite the dust' [cease to exist]
- see Gen 3 vs14,15

That 'curse' was not meant for the serpent but meant SaIn the Greek New Testament,
tan's destruction.
-Gen 3v15;Romans 16v20; Heb 2v14 B

The Serpent in the garden of Eden is misconstrued as evil. No, Its not evil. It`s the Cain present in all of us.

In the Greek New Testament, Cain is referred to as εκ του πονηρου. In at least one translation this is rendered "from the evil one", while others have "of the evil one." Some interpreters take this to mean that Cain was literally the son of the serpent in the Garden of Eden. A parallel idea can be found in Jewish tradition, that the serpent (Hebrew nahash נח&#1513 from the Garden of Eden was father to firstborn Cain.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

The serpent itself was actually an animal.
Satan used the actual serpent as a ventriloquist uses his dummy.

You didn't address these questions and comments: First, the serpent was described as the most cunning of all the wild creatures God had made then later he is cursed above all the livestock. If the serpent in the garden was not actually an animal then why does the text keep mentioning animals? Also, if he was not an animal, why curse him above all the animals? What did the animals have to do with any of this and does this mean the animals were cursed?

Eat dust as in we might say 'bite the dust' meaning he will die.
'Death is the price sin pays' [Rom 6v23]
Satan is a sinner and must pay the price or wage of sin which is: death.
-Revelation 21v8 meaning 'second death' for Satan. No resurrection ever.
Satan nor his demons die a so-called natural death, but are destined for destruction or annihilation by Jesus. -Hebrews 2v14 B.

To hear many Christians tell it, Satan's fall from grace happened before the events in the garden. So why did God wait until he tempted Eve to curse him?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You didn't address these questions and comments: First, the serpent was described as the most cunning of all the wild creatures God had made then later he is cursed above all the livestock. If the serpent in the garden was not actually an animal then why does the text keep mentioning animals? Also, if he was not an animal, why curse him above all the animals? What did the animals have to do with any of this and does this mean the animals were cursed?
To hear many Christians tell it, Satan's fall from grace happened before the events in the garden. So why did God wait until he tempted Eve to curse him?

Satan [Gen 3v14] was now considered lower than an animal because now dust he would eat. No one can eat dust and live. That was showing Satan's death sentence [Eze. 18vs4,20]

Remember the elevated position of the serpent on Moses' pole ?
That serpent was not Satan. Did not mean any 'serpent' in Eden.

So, then we need to know at what point was Satan's 'fall from grace' ?
Satan apparently had the heavenly assignment to be in the garden of Eden.
Satan, as an invisible heavenly cherub [angel],
according to the account at Eze. [28vs14,16],
had a God-given purpose to be there in the garden realm.
Please notice he is referred to as a 'covering cherub'.
He was assigned as we might say an 'overseer of the couple in the garden'.
He was supposed to be there as a covering protection safeguarding them.
[perhaps the coining of the term 'guardian angel' stems from that]
Please also notice his angelic state as described in verse 15.
Satan starts out [with that heavenly assignment] with angelic perfection.
The explanation given in verse 17 was that he became haughty because he thought so much of his own beauty. [James 1v14]

So, from that beginning of Satan's wrong way starting on earth, did he now become [make himself] into a Satan and a Devil which are titles for resister and slanderer.

Sometimes in the work force a person might let their job position 'go to one's head', so to speak. Satan's appointed position [covering overseer] could have allowed him to place undo importance to that position to the point that he greedily wanted the humans [us] to worship him instead of our Creator.
-[Eze 28v2]

So, instead of an angelic protector, Satan [in his invisible earthly assignment] became their [and our] terror.
-[Eze 28v19]

So, God could not have cursed him before he sinned but afterwards.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The Serpent in the garden of Eden is misconstrued as evil. No, Its not evil. It`s the Cain present in all of us.
In the Greek New Testament, Cain is referred to as εκ του πονηρου. In at least one translation this is rendered "from the evil one", while others have "of the evil one." Some interpreters take this to mean that Cain was literally the son of the serpent in the Garden of Eden. A parallel idea can be found in Jewish tradition, that the serpent (Hebrew nahash נח&#1513 from the Garden of Eden was father to firstborn Cain.

Satan [John 8v44] is father to the lie not a person. [told the first lie]

The Cain present in all of us? Why not the Abel present in all of us?
Hybrids [half angel/half human] do not reproduce. Cain reproduced.

Cain [meaning: something produced] first Child of Adam and Eve.[Gen 4v1]
Please notice Eve gives credit to God not Satan. That would indicate to Eve that God did not take away her reproductive powers with Adam.

Cain's family line ended with the Flood, and Cain did father Enoch and engaged in building a city for his son Enoch and his descendants.
That city is the first city mentioned in the Bible. [Gen 4vs17-24]

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Satan [Gen 3v14] was now considered lower than an animal because now dust he would eat. No one can eat dust and live. That was showing Satan's death sentence [Eze. 18vs4,20]

Remember the elevated position of the serpent on Moses' pole ?
That serpent was not Satan. Did not mean any 'serpent' in Eden.

So, then we need to know at what point was Satan's 'fall from grace' ?
Satan apparently had the heavenly assignment to be in the garden of Eden.
Satan, as an invisible heavenly cherub [angel],
according to the account at Eze. [28vs14,16],
had a God-given purpose to be there in the garden realm.
Please notice he is referred to as a 'covering cherub'.
He was assigned as we might say an 'overseer of the couple in the garden'.
He was supposed to be there as a covering protection safeguarding them.
[perhaps the coining of the term 'guardian angel' stems from that]
Please also notice his angelic state as described in verse 15.
Satan starts out [with that heavenly assignment] with angelic perfection.
The explanation given in verse 17 was that he became haughty because he thought so much of his own beauty. [James 1v14]

So, from that beginning of Satan's wrong way starting on earth, did he now become [make himself] into a Satan and a Devil which are titles for resister and slanderer.

Sometimes in the work force a person might let their job position 'go to one's head', so to speak. Satan's appointed position [covering overseer] could have allowed him to place undo importance to that position to the point that he greedily wanted the humans [us] to worship him instead of our Creator.
-[Eze 28v2]

So, instead of an angelic protector, Satan [in his invisible earthly assignment] became their [and our] terror.
-[Eze 28v19]

So, God could not have cursed him before he sinned but afterwards.

The only thing I can say to all this is, what did Adam and Eve need protection from in a paradise?

 

[waitasec]

The only thing I can say to all this is, what did Adam and Eve need protection from in a paradise?

themselves.
apparently god wanted to keep a & e innocent, ignorant and oblivious of their actions...
meaning not being accountable for doing evil or good ... because they were not supposed to eat from the forbidden fruit....so when cain killed his brother...cain wouldn't be held accountable in the eyes of god because cain would be ignorant of his evil action...

ignorance is bliss.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The only thing I can say to all this is, what did Adam and Eve need protection from in a paradise?

Apparently ending up needing protection from their supposed protector !

I'll take a try as to why he was covering cherub.

Having the high rank of covering cherub that angel in Eden was supposed to be there as a blessing to A&E. As overseer he was to watch carefully over them [protective supervision]. Although created as adults in a perfect home for them, A&E were still young in experience.

Remember the story of Joseph in Genesis.
Pharaoh put Joseph in the high rank to oversee the food supply.
Joseph's good works proved to be a blessing to all even people that were not worshipers of Israel's God. So, good works [protective supervision] of Satan could have proved to be a blessing to A&E.

Eve did not dream up eating the fruit on her own.
If she had any questions Satan should have been there to observe that and
bring or report that information to their heavenly Father and Creator.

With the cherub being in Eden then possibly no one could ever say A&E were left unattended in a perfect but still not in a fully mature state.

Just think any questions will be answered during Jesus millennial reign over earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

themselves.
apparently god wanted to keep a & e innocent, ignorant and oblivious of their actions...
meaning not being accountable for doing evil or good ... because they were not supposed to eat from the forbidden fruit....so when cain killed his brother...cain wouldn't be held accountable in the eyes of god because cain would be ignorant of his evil action...
ignorance is bliss.

How could Eve be ignorant or oblivious when she answered Satan correctly?
-Genesis 3v3

Didn't God first forewarn Cain of 'evil action' before Cain slew Abel ?
-Genesis 4 vs5-7

 

[waitasec]

How could Eve be ignorant or oblivious when she answered Satan correctly?
-Genesis 3v3

exactly my point...how could she if she were innocent of the knowledge of good and evil?
that is the conundrum you need to solve my friend.

Didn't God first forewarn Cain of 'evil action' before Cain slew Abel ?
-Genesis 4 vs5-7

doesn't matter...
god intended a & e to stay ignorant of their actions... before they partook of the forbidden fruit...

isn't that what god asked them to do...not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

pure circular nonsensical logic.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Apparently ending up needing protection from their supposed protector !

I'll take a try as to why he was covering cherub.

Having the high rank of covering cherub that angel in Eden was supposed to be there as a blessing to A&E. As overseer he was to watch carefully over them [protective supervision]. Although created as adults in a perfect home for them, A&E were still young in experience.

[FONT=&quot]Yet when I point out that the fall of man happened relatively quickly after creation, I am told that since no timeline is given (other than the six-day creation account), the fall of man could have occurred many years after creation. If that is the case, Adam and Eve were not young in experience.

Besides that, God appointing a protector doesn't jibe with the idea of freewill. If Adam and Eve were given freewill then this applies to any choice, not just whether or not to eat from the forbidden tree. Ergo, a protector was not necessary and in fact, would have impinged on their freewill to make unhealthy choices.


[/FONT]

 

[URAVIP2ME]

[FONT=&quot]Yet when I point out that the fall of man happened relatively quickly after creation, I am told that since no timeline is given (other than the six-day creation account), the fall of man could have occurred many years after creation. If that is the case, Adam and Eve were not young in experience.
Besides that, God appointing a protector doesn't jibe with the idea of freewill. If Adam and Eve were given freewill then this applies to any choice, not just whether or not to eat from the forbidden tree. Ergo, a protector was not necessary and in fact, would have impinged on their freewill to make unhealthy choices.
[/FONT]

In Scripture around the age of 30 was considered mature.
Let's say Adam was around for 30 years before Eve, but Eve being 'new on the scene' could have been an easier target for Satan.
That would account for at least Eve being young in experience.
That could also account for Eve, not Adam, being deceived.- 1st Tim 2v14.
[No time line given regarding Eve. That missing piece of information keeps us from being able to calculate more about the end times of badness on earth]

Although A&E were created with human perfection.
Taken in context 'perfection', as used in Scripture,
can be either in the absolute or relative sense.
Absolute sense in that Jesus said only God is good.
God would be the only one without limitations.

So, there's freedom or freedom of choice within God-given limits.
They were to act within the 'relative freedom limitations' given them.
That relative 'freedom of will' was not self-determination of good or bad.
so, 'any choice' was to be within the bounds of God's requirements.

What purpose would any overseer have in a garden ?
As 'covering' overseer he could be overseeing the assignment.
Although the earth was created 'very good', A&E were assigned to 'subdue' the earth. Subdue in the sense of cultivate the earth, the whole planet, not just Eden, but expand Eden to cover the whole globe.
A&E's relative human perfection would not necessarily rule out them not having questions about how to better go about that 'subduing' assignment.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

In Scripture around the age of 30 was considered mature.
Let's say Adam was around for 30 years before Eve, but Eve being 'new on the scene' could have been an easier target for Satan.
That would account for at least Eve being young in experience.
That could also account for Eve, not Adam, being deceived.- 1st Tim 2v14.

But Adam was deceived. He was right there, remember?

Although A&E were created with human perfection.
Taken in context 'perfection', as used in Scripture,
can be either in the absolute or relative sense.
Absolute sense in that Jesus said only God is good.
God would be the only one without limitations.

So, there's freedom or freedom of choice within God-given limits.
They were to act within the 'relative freedom limitations' given them.
That relative 'freedom of will' was not self-determination of good or bad.
so, 'any choice' was to be within the bounds of God's requirements.

Wasn't one of his requirements not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Yet they were allowed to make that choice, correct?

What purpose would any overseer have in a garden ?
As 'covering' overseer he could be overseeing the assignment.
Although the earth was created 'very good', A&E were assigned to 'subdue' the earth. Subdue in the sense of cultivate the earth, the whole planet, not just Eden, but expand Eden to cover the whole globe.
A&E's relative human perfection would not necessarily rule out them not having questions about how to better go about that 'subduing' assignment.

I asked before and never got an answer so I'll ask again: Where do you get this stuff from?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But Adam was deceived. He was right there, remember?
Wasn't one of his requirements not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Yet they were allowed to make that choice, correct?
I asked before and never got an answer so I'll ask again: Where do you get this stuff from?

Yes. Adam was right there, there in the garden, but not right there side by side with Eve at the time Eve ate. Adam apparently did not want to live without Eve.
By eating Adam was deliberately taking his life away. That is why chapter five of Romans puts the responsibility on Adam as the one man entering sin into the world.

Of course they were allowed to choose to 'obey or disobey' eating.
Choose to obey and live forever.
Choose to disobey and die, or be dead forever.

'Stuff' from the Scriptures.
Every detail is not given. Some places the Scriptures are silent.
That does not make the Bible wrong.
What Adam 'lost' for us [prospect of everlasting life]
Jesus will 'gain' for us [prospect of everlasting life]
'Gain' in the sense that some 'go to heaven' [Rev 5vs9,10;14v4; 20v6]
'Gain' in the sense that the rest 'remain on earth' everlastingly.
[Psalm 37v29; Proverbs 2vs21,22]

 

[krsnaraja]

The title of this thread is redundant. To say God sends people to hell because they think He does not exist. The great soul does exist within everyone`s heart as the Paramatma. He`s side by side with the soul. One is witnessing while the other is enjoying the fruits of the body.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The title of this thread is redundant. To say God sends people to hell because they think He does not exist. The great soul does exist within everyone`s heart as the Paramatma. He`s side by side with the soul. One is witnessing while the other is enjoying the fruits of the body.

According to Scripture [Ezekiel 18vs4,20; Acts 3v23] the soul can die and be destroyed.
According to Scripture [Genesis 2v7] Adam was only a living soul until he died. At death Adam became a dead soul or a lifeless soul.

 

[atanu]

According to Scripture [Ezekiel 18vs4,20; Acts 3v23] the soul can die and be destroyed.
According to Scripture [Genesis 2v7] Adam was only a living soul until he died. At death Adam became a dead soul or a lifeless soul.

We do not call it destruction however. There are two birds: one the Lord Bird, the Seer and another the non-Lord, the enjoyer of pain and pleasure. The latter undergoes absorption - when it happens knowlingly it is grace and when it happens unknowingly, it appears to be destruction. And when it happens unknowingly, the absorption is not devoid of residual desires that again has to manifest and so such a soul helplessly manifests itself and enjoys pain and pleasure again and again, till free of desires.

 

[krsnaraja]

According to Scripture [Ezekiel 18vs4,20; Acts 3v23] the soul can die and be destroyed.
According to Scripture [Genesis 2v7] Adam was only a living soul until he died. At death Adam became a dead soul or a lifeless soul.

The body is not the soul. It`s a piece of clothing that needs to be replaced by another piece of cloth. Depends on what color you want in the next life. If you were a blue colored dress maybe in the next life you have chosen say a yellow color. The soul exists eternally as well the great soul- the soul`s eternal companion.

 

[haribol]

God is a hegemonic being and that is why if any of denizens of his terrain turn disbelievers or defiant of his rule he or she will be punished and today we have some rebels who fighting in defiance get throttled and we are not running short of such hegemonic gods even today in the guise of rulers. Every country has such rulers who take their supreme powers to rule and dictate their citizens.

 

[waitasec]

According to Scripture [Genesis 2v7] Adam was only a living soul until he died. At death Adam became a dead soul or a lifeless soul.

there is no mention of a soul in this account...



and what are you talking about?

was adam dead before he ate the forbidden fruit?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

there is no mention of a soul in this account...
and what are you talking about?
was adam dead before he ate the forbidden fruit?

Adam was alive before he ate the fruit.
The last word in Genesis 2v7 is the word: 'soul'.

After Adam received the breath of life, then, Adam became a living soul.

Before receiving the breath of life Adam was not alive. [Job 33v4]

So, at death Adam ceased to breathe and Adam became a dead soul.

Before receiving the breath of life Adam did not exist.
After Adam loosing the breath of life Adam again did not exist.